Dale Sveum to re arrange the deck chairs

[Little Slide Rooter]

When I talked about Barney eventually becoming the next Theriot in the eyes of some I never realized it would happen this quickly.

 

He shouldn't be. With utility middle infield types, as long as they're cheap and not completely hapless with the bat there's no harm in keeping them around. Also, in Barney's case as long as he's hitting well for now may as well let him play out the hot streak. I understand the comparisons as far as offense goes, but the obvious difference is the fact that Barney is a great defensive player, despite the fact that he makes some mistakes and Theriot was a bad defensive player.

 

Not as much comparisons of their numbers as how they will be hailed by some in similar ways.

 

Agreed. It's too bad, because it's really not the player's fault so much as a lot of media and fans over valuing them for "playing the game the right way". Time will tell if Sveum and the FO see Barney as the answer at 2nd long term or simply a good utilityplayer.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Little Slide Rooter

[Banedon]

Forget the stats for a moment, Neely. Tell me why it matters for Tony Campana or Darwin Barney's development that they bat leadoff? How will that help them become better ballplayers? You've already admitted the Cubs aren't going anywhere, so you aren't arguing this because you think the Cubs will win more games. So how will moving one of these guys to the leadoff spot help them moving forward?

 

I don't think Barney should bat lead off. I do wonder why he was jettisoned to 8th when his stats don't actually deserve it. If he is on a strong team, then yes, 8th would be a spot for him. I was not actually arguing the point, but started off by wondering why some others were sent to that spot.

As for Campana, why not find out if he is a lead off guy? If he can produce his stat line all year which is the same as dejesus plus potential league leading steal totals, it would certainly add to an offense that has 19 homers outside of Lahair. If he is on, and steals second-which he doing about 40% of the time he is on first, that means that nearly over 30% of his at bats he would be on second, for say Dejesus batting 2nd, Castro and Lahair. Does that make sense? I don't know if he can keep it up after pitchers and defenses see him a few times, but why not find out.

 

DeJesus may be the best option, but if we are working toward the future is Dejesus going to be that guy at 35 in 2014? will he be here? Other than the salary, it's like pena last year. Yes, he was the best we had at 1b, but if you are going to have the 2nd worst record in the national league does it make more sense to have played Colvin there all year, through thick and thin to find if he was going to be a player. I loved Pena, but would we be better off losing 10 more games and knowing if Colvin, and now it may have nice to see LaHair- then we would have a better idea if his stats will be real, or just a blip on the radar.

I can't see why posters think it's crazy, in a year where we are 15-26, worst record in the NL, with pretty much nothing on the horizon that says we will greatly improve anytime this season, we make some moves to get better or at least evaluate things for next year.

just don't see why that is such an attackable position, or why it warrants having my baseball knowledge, my identity or ideals ridiculed or questioned.

 

The answer was long, but didn't answer the question. What is gained for Campana batting leadoff? If your argument was that the team would possibly have a better chance of winning, then maybe, maybe...that would be a somewhat arguable position. But there's no development that will occur for Campana by leading off that he's not getting lower in the lineup. Same with Barney. What is he losing by being lower in the lineup. You're viewing it as a personal slight. Truth is, every plate appearance, no matter whether it's leadoff or 8th, is valuable learning experience for these guys. You're valuing the spot in the batting order far too much. And by "valuing too much", I mean "valuing at all".

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Dejesus' OBP has consistently gone done in each full season

 

DeJesus OBP in 2004: .360

DeJesus OBP in 2012: .360

 

And the average AL OBP in 2004 was 20 points higher than it was in the NL this year.

 

But yeah, consistently gone down.

 

by the way soccer, that would mean that an OB% of 360 in 2004 would be the equivilent of .340 this year. Thanks for the help it shows even more for my point that his 40 game split of .360 will likely go down this year.

 

ohhhhhhh man do i love this post

I don't. It gave me a headache.

[woodchip2153]

how about this?

at 26 in his 2nd year, with a 2011 stat line of .276 .313ob% .666 ops is more or less likely that his stats will go up over this year and next. while a 32 year in his 10th time around vs major league pitching with a 2011 stat line of .240 .323 and .698 might go down or at least not improve?

Am I off on common sense here? a younger, less experienced player has a better chance at improving over the next few seasons than a 10 year vet who is 32? is that really a crazy thought?

 

Yes when that is a career low for the 10 year vet, and it was primarily driven by a career low in BABIP in one of the most pitcher friendly ballparks. And the 2nd year player put up numbers that are pretty much what his minor league career would have predicted.

[neely crenshaw]

I don't think Barney should bat lead off. I do wonder why he was jettisoned to 8th when his stats don't actually deserve it.

 

Batting order doesn't really matter. The fact that he's playing just about every day kind of negates the notion that he's been "jettisoned" in any way shape or form.

 

this is good to know because all this years we have complained about our leadoff guy, and made fun of managers that wanted to put Soriano there, all along it really never mattered.

 

I know you are just jumping in halfway through, so please understand..I have not said anything about anyone being better.

I only wondered why it seems that Barney is getting moved out.

Instead of ridicule, a great answer may have been- They see Barney as an 8 hole hitter in the future on hopefully a much better team. OK, that would make sense.

My question was why is he sent to 8th, when other players are doing far worse than Barney has done.

I also wondered why he has been out of the lineup now 6 times over the last 19 games despite his stat line going up. To me it seems like they are working to replace him. I can certainly think of many other spots that seem to be much more glaring weakness comparatively.

[jersey cubs fan]

this is good to know because all this years we have complained about our leadoff guy, and made fun of managers that wanted to put Soriano there, all along it really never mattered.

 

Only a certain sector of the fan base has obsessed over the leadoff spot.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I know you are just jumping in halfway through, so please understand..I have not said anything about anyone being better.

I only wondered why it seems that Barney is getting moved out.

Instead of ridicule, a great answer may have been- They see Barney as an 8 hole hitter in the future on hopefully a much better team. OK, that would make sense.

My question was why is he sent to 8th, when other players are doing far worse than Barney has done.

I also wondered why he has been out of the lineup now 6 times over the last 19 games despite his stat line going up. To me it seems like they are working to replace him. I can certainly think of many other spots that seem to be much more glaring weakness comparatively.

The thing is, these are all questions you could easily answer yourself especially considering your tremendous knowledge of baseball.

[MSG T]

Part of me wants to continually open these two thread to see the greatness within. Part of me thinks I should avoid them for the good of my sanity.

 

Oh, and jersey, don't you remember, lead off is a position. You have to keep that thought in mind when dealing with people like this.

[neely crenshaw]

how about this?

at 26 in his 2nd year, with a 2011 stat line of .276 .313ob% .666 ops is more or less likely that his stats will go up over this year and next. while a 32 year in his 10th time around vs major league pitching with a 2011 stat line of .240 .323 and .698 might go down or at least not improve?

Am I off on common sense here? a younger, less experienced player has a better chance at improving over the next few seasons than a 10 year vet who is 32? is that really a crazy thought?

 

Yes when that is a career low for the 10 year vet, and it was primarily driven by a career low in BABIP in one of the most pitcher friendly ballparks. And the 2nd year player put up numbers that are pretty much what his minor league career would have predicted.

 

I'll give you the point on oakland. However without having watched it seems that the biggest problem is that the ball doesn't carry, and I felt that may not be a huge factor in DeJesus game or stat line, and he actually had his 3rd highest HR numbers. SO it's tough to tell.

Barney's numbers in the minors averaged .335 ob% and trended up in his 2nd season in each league, AA .339 TO .368, AAA .304 to .333 to .400. It could be said he could/should trend upward.

DeJesus certainly could jump up his stat line to his current, or around his best. I kind of see it as a trend down. We won't know until we play it out.

I also see Barney as potentially moving upward toward Dejesus' stat line. Again we won't know until it plays out. I do think it's nuts to say that either of those will or won't happen for sure. In this year it makes more sense to hold unto to hope for the younger , less experienced guy over the older veteran player. To make chatise someone who would question the validity of that possibility is ridiculous.

[jersey cubs fan]

Doesn't David DeJesus play RF while Darwin Barney plays 2B? Why are they being compared? One isn't replacing or standing in the way of the other.

[Tracer Bullet]

Dejesus' OBP has consistently gone done in each full season

 

DeJesus OBP in 2004: .360

DeJesus OBP in 2012: .360

 

And the average AL OBP in 2004 was 20 points higher than it was in the NL this year.

 

But yeah, consistently gone down.

 

by the way soccer, that would mean that an OB% of 360 in 2004 would be the equivilent of .340 this year. Thanks for the help it shows even more for my point that his 40 game split of .360 will likely go down this year.

 

ohhhhhhh man do i love this post

 

That's fantastic stuff

[neely crenshaw]

I know you are just jumping in halfway through, so please understand..I have not said anything about anyone being better.

I only wondered why it seems that Barney is getting moved out.

Instead of ridicule, a great answer may have been- They see Barney as an 8 hole hitter in the future on hopefully a much better team. OK, that would make sense.

My question was why is he sent to 8th, when other players are doing far worse than Barney has done.

I also wondered why he has been out of the lineup now 6 times over the last 19 games despite his stat line going up. To me it seems like they are working to replace him. I can certainly think of many other spots that seem to be much more glaring weakness comparatively.

The thing is, these are all questions you could easily answer yourself especially considering your tremendous knowledge of baseball.

 

so your answer is?

I stated my thoughts. the I got answer was Dejesus has a 40 point better ob%. But that wasn't the question.Never even said he should replace Dejesus, just mentioned that his stats are very,very similar.

how about you compare his stat line to Castro? oh, their OB% and OPS are virtually the same (the only important ones right?), or Soto, or Castillo, or Stewart, or Soriano, yep, you guessed it! his are better.

he is dropped and benched because?

Edited May 22, 2012 by neely crenshaw

[SouthSideRyan]

I don't think Barney should bat lead off. I do wonder why he was jettisoned to 8th when his stats don't actually deserve it.

 

Batting order doesn't really matter. The fact that he's playing just about every day kind of negates the notion that he's been "jettisoned" in any way shape or form.

 

this is good to know because all this years we have complained about our leadoff guy, and made fun of managers that wanted to put Soriano there, all along it really never mattered.

 

I know you are just jumping in halfway through, so please understand..I have not said anything about anyone being better.

I only wondered why it seems that Barney is getting moved out.

Instead of ridicule, a great answer may have been- They see Barney as an 8 hole hitter in the future on hopefully a much better team. OK, that would make sense.

My question was why is he sent to 8th, when other players are doing far worse than Barney has done.

I also wondered why he has been out of the lineup now 6 times over the last 19 games despite his stat line going up. To me it seems like they are working to replace him. I can certainly think of many other spots that seem to be much more glaring weakness comparatively.

 

He's been out of the lineup 5 times over the last 19 games. He's been out of the lineup 7 times all freaking year, and he's Darwin Barney.

[neely crenshaw]

Dejesus' OBP has consistently gone done in each full season

 

DeJesus OBP in 2004: .360

DeJesus OBP in 2012: .360

 

And the average AL OBP in 2004 was 20 points higher than it was in the NL this year.

 

But yeah, consistently gone down.

 

by the way soccer, that would mean that an OB% of 360 in 2004 would be the equivilent of .340 this year. Thanks for the help it shows even more for my point that his 40 game split of .360 will likely go down this year.

 

ohhhhhhh man do i love this post

 

 

 

That's fantastic stuff

 

WTF? he puts up a stat that in truth shows the opposite of his point, and I point it out and you have an issue with that?

[bcl412]

What the hell is being argued anymore?

[Vanilla Ice]

DeJesus OBP in 2004: .360

DeJesus OBP in 2012: .360

 

And the average AL OBP in 2004 was 20 points higher than it was in the NL this year.

 

But yeah, consistently gone down.

 

by the way soccer, that would mean that an OB% of 360 in 2004 would be the equivilent of .340 this year. Thanks for the help it shows even more for my point that his 40 game split of .360 will likely go down this year.

 

ohhhhhhh man do i love this post

 

 

 

That's fantastic stuff

 

WTF? he puts up a stat that in truth shows the opposite of his point, and I point it out and you have an issue with that?

Love it

[jersey cubs fan]

Dejesus' OBP has consistently gone done in each full season

[SouthSideRyan]

Barney's numbers in the minors averaged .335 ob% and trended up in his 2nd season in each league, AA .339 TO .368, AAA .304 to .333 to .400. It could be said he could/should trend upward.

 

Barney didn't have a 2nd season in AA. That .339 is his combined OBP in 2009.

 

And again you're using a hilariously small sample to attempt to show a "trend." Barney's improvement to .400 was over 15 PAs.

[Hendrys Ghost]

Geovany Soto

[Vanilla Ice]

Barney's numbers in the minors averaged .335 ob% and trended up in his 2nd season in each league, AA .339 TO .368, AAA .304 to .333 to .400. It could be said he could/should trend upward.

 

Barney didn't have a 2nd season in AA. That .339 is his combined OBP in 2009.

 

And again you're using a hilariously small sample to attempt to show a "trend." Barney's improvement to .400 was over 15 PAs.

No no no, it's okay to use OBP over a small sample, but not OPS

[SouthSideRyan]

26 year old Darwin Barney career minor league line: .287/.335/.376

 

24 year old stupid crummy retread for jerks Adrian Cardenas: .303/.368/.417

[Banedon]

WTF? he puts up a stat that in truth shows the opposite of his point, and I point it out and you have an issue with that?

 

Come on man. If you really don't understand the stats this much, you really need to just abandon the argument.

 

He's saying that the average OBP is lower now than it was in the 2004 season. Which means that Dejesus's OBP is higher above the average this year than it was in 2004.

 

You don't modify Dejesus's OBP by the difference....that's nonsense.

[treebird]

Barney's numbers in the minors averaged .335 ob% and trended up in his 2nd season in each league, AA .339 TO .368, AAA .304 to .333 to .400. It could be said he could/should trend upward.

 

Barney didn't have a 2nd season in AA. That .339 is his combined OBP in 2009.

 

And again you're using a hilariously small sample to attempt to show a "trend." Barney's improvement to .400 was over 15 PAs.

 

obp normalizes in 30ab which is twice 15pas and 30 is the numnber you need for a good smaple in statistics so 30pas will be fine here

the .420ob% was there4 at least half normal so why isn't barney leading off or at least champagnea

[Banedon]

Barney's numbers in the minors averaged .335 ob% and trended up in his 2nd season in each league, AA .339 TO .368, AAA .304 to .333 to .400. It could be said he could/should trend upward.

 

Barney didn't have a 2nd season in AA. That .339 is his combined OBP in 2009.

 

And again you're using a hilariously small sample to attempt to show a "trend." Barney's improvement to .400 was over 15 PAs.

 

obp normalizes in 30ab which is twice 15pas and 30 is the numnber you need for a good smaple in statistics so 30pas will be fine here

the .420ob% was there4 at least half normal so why isn't barney leading off or at least champagnea

 

I bet that post was surprisingly difficult to actually write.

[neely crenshaw]

I don't think Barney should bat lead off. I do wonder why he was jettisoned to 8th when his stats don't actually deserve it.

 

Batting order doesn't really matter. The fact that he's playing just about every day kind of negates the notion that he's been "jettisoned" in any way shape or form.

 

this is good to know because all this years we have complained about our leadoff guy, and made fun of managers that wanted to put Soriano there, all along it really never mattered.

 

I know you are just jumping in halfway through, so please understand..I have not said anything about anyone being better.

I only wondered why it seems that Barney is getting moved out.

Instead of ridicule, a great answer may have been- They see Barney as an 8 hole hitter in the future on hopefully a much better team. OK, that would make sense.

My question was why is he sent to 8th, when other players are doing far worse than Barney has done.

I also wondered why he has been out of the lineup now 6 times over the last 19 games despite his stat line going up. To me it seems like they are working to replace him. I can certainly think of many other spots that seem to be much more glaring weakness comparatively.

 

He's been out of the lineup 5 times over the last 19 games. He's been out of the lineup 7 times all freaking year, and he's Darwin Barney.

are you making things up, guessing or simply can't read?

 

1)April 15- DNP- did not play

2)April 22 DNS-did not start

3)April 30 DNS

4)May 2 DNS

5)May 8 DNP

6)May 20 DNS

7)May 21 DNP

So that is 7 times this season, and 6 times in the last 20 games (not the original 19) April 30 to yesterday.

Part of the point is exactly what you state. In the first 21 games he sat once, in last 20 games he sat 6 times. That seems like a change and it strikes me as odd considering his stats over that period are way up, and yes better than stewart's huge hot streak that everyone wants to use as proof that he's actually good.

Yes, he's Darwin Barney, who happens to be out performing most of our other starters.