Kaplan: Royals interested in Z

[Backtobanks]

I've been saying all along that there should be a market for Z as long as the Cubs are paying some portion of his contract and not expecting a ton in return. You can't convince me that Z isn't good enough to be a #3 or #4 starter on most teams. Obviously the issue is that he's been treated and paid like a #1 starter by the Cubs.

[davell]

Here's the thing with Z and what Theo has to figure out: he's an average starter who's losing velo and certainly has some issues that will scare some teams off. He's also being paid as a 1 starter. Even if we paid his entire deal, there's no way a team is giving up a top 100ish prospect or a key major league piece for him. Not happening. We'd either get a couple of high upside guys who have had problems or some other high salary that's basically a switch of scenery deal everyone hopes works out. If he were a FA right now, what would he get on the open market? Maybe 2 or 3 years at between 8 and 10 mill per? Maybe even a tad less? Hell, he may would have to sign a one year, make good deal to try and bring his value back up even. So, is it worth it to trade him and create another hole in the rotation as well? In the end, I really doubt it personally. Keep him and see if he pitches better since it's his walk year. If so and we aren't contending, we'd get more at the deadline than we would right now anyway.

[dew1679666265]

Here's the thing with Z and what Theo has to figure out: he's an average starter who's losing velo and certainly has some issues that will scare some teams off. He's also being paid as a 1 starter. Even if we paid his entire deal, there's no way a team is giving up a top 100ish prospect or a key major league piece for him. Not happening. We'd either get a couple of high upside guys who have had problems or some other high salary that's basically a switch of scenery deal everyone hopes works out. If he were a FA right now, what would he get on the open market? Maybe 2 or 3 years at between 8 and 10 mill per? Maybe even a tad less? Hell, he may would have to sign a one year, make good deal to try and bring his value back up even. So, is it worth it to trade him and create another hole in the rotation as well? In the end, I really doubt it personally. Keep him and see if he pitches better since it's his walk year. If so and we aren't contending, we'd get more at the deadline than we would right now anyway.

 

While I agree with your overall point, I think Z could get more than a 2/16 or 3/30 deal on the FA market. Prior to 2011, he's never posted an ERA above 3.91 and I think the good traditional numbers would cause somebody to overlook the "clubhouse cancer" issue and give him some sort of a 3/42 or 3/45 deal, 3/36 at the least.

[Outshined_One]

Sickels' writeup of the Royals' Top 20 prospects

 

If we're looking at lower level prospects in a hypothetical trade, Jorge Bonifacio, Jason Adam, and Tim Melville are guys I like.

[17 Seconds]

Why do we want to trade Zambrano if we're not getting anything of value back and/or are being forced to eat some of his contract?

 

Just keep him. We need starting pitching and with Ramirez gone, we have plenty of room to sign Pujols/Prince and keep Zambrano around.

[seanimal]

earth2sean: royals not actually all that interested in Z

[Guest]

Why do we want to trade Zambrano if we're not getting anything of value back and/or are being forced to eat some of his contract?

 

Just keep him. We need starting pitching and with Ramirez gone, we have plenty of room to sign Pujols/Prince and keep Zambrano around.

By "eat some of his contract" do you mean any of his contract? I've been pulling for us to just pitch Z next year, but if a team were willing to take on $12M I'd jump up and down, followed by cartwheels, followed by a small drinking binge. If what you're suggesting is that if the Cubs have to eat all but one million and get warm crap in return, then I agree.

 

The question is where the line is drawn in between.

[seanimal]

zambrano provides optimal value to the cubs by pitching and hitting for us every five days. we won't get anything meaningful in return via trade from now until, perhaps, the trade deadline. why an american league team would want anything to do with zambrano is beyond me.

[Old Style]

If the game was played on paper there'd be no reason to trade Z. Unfortunately there is more to it than that.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

If the game was played on paper there'd be no reason to trade Z. Unfortunately there is more to it than that.

 

See the sig.

 

There'd be no reason Zambrano couldn't be allowed back except for a few people inside and outside the organization grinding an axe and looking for a scapegoat.

[CubColtPacer]

Why do we want to trade Zambrano if we're not getting anything of value back and/or are being forced to eat some of his contract?

 

Just keep him. We need starting pitching and with Ramirez gone, we have plenty of room to sign Pujols/Prince and keep Zambrano around.

By "eat some of his contract" do you mean any of his contract? I've been pulling for us to just pitch Z next year, but if a team were willing to take on $12M I'd jump up and down, followed by cartwheels, followed by a small drinking binge. If what you're suggesting is that if the Cubs have to eat all but one million and get warm crap in return, then I agree.

 

The question is where the line is drawn in between.

 

The question becomes what is the Cubs response going to be if Z has another incident next year? If it's going to be a suspension, then I'd be willing to eat all but 5 million. If they are going to let things slide because it's the last year of his deal, then I'd probably need to have 8-10 million savings to make the deal. That's with getting nothing in return-if the other team sends something the Cubs would probably need to eat more. I'm not worried about Z's particular character concerns other than how it affects his ability to pitch 200 innings. But it's hard to ignore how worrying last year's numbers were for his pitching also, and his bat isn't going to be as good every year as it was last year.

[seanimal]

If the game was played on paper there'd be no reason to trade Z. Unfortunately there is more to it than that.

 

i don't buy that zambrano is enough of a clubhouse cancer that his on paper value is mitigated, especially if the expectations for what this organization and clubhouse will be like ring true. there has been very little leadership and top-down discipline and accountability in the cubs clubhouse for a long, long time. given the right environment, i think zambrano can be a very valuable contributor to the cubs 2012 season and perhaps beyond, moreso than any middling prospects we may get in return for paying z to pitch somewhere else.

[jersey cubs fan]

The question becomes what is the Cubs response going to be if Z has another incident next year? If it's going to be a suspension, then I'd be willing to eat all but 5 million. If they are going to let things slide because it's the last year of his deal, then I'd probably need to have 8-10 million savings to make the deal.

 

Suspension or banned from the team? If he does something and they suspend him a couple days, I don't give a crap. If they are going to be idiots and ban him from the team again, that's a problem.

[CUBZ99]

The question becomes what is the Cubs response going to be if Z has another incident next year? If it's going to be a suspension, then I'd be willing to eat all but 5 million. If they are going to let things slide because it's the last year of his deal, then I'd probably need to have 8-10 million savings to make the deal.

 

Suspension or banned from the team? If he does something and they suspend him a couple days, I don't give a crap. If they are going to be idiots and ban him from the team again, that's a problem.

 

Let's be realistic, if Zambrano stays and there is another incident they are not going to suspend him for a couple of days.

[jersey cubs fan]

The question becomes what is the Cubs response going to be if Z has another incident next year? If it's going to be a suspension, then I'd be willing to eat all but 5 million. If they are going to let things slide because it's the last year of his deal, then I'd probably need to have 8-10 million savings to make the deal.

 

Suspension or banned from the team? If he does something and they suspend him a couple days, I don't give a crap. If they are going to be idiots and ban him from the team again, that's a problem.

 

Let's be realistic, if Zambrano stays and there is another incident they are not going to suspend him for a couple of days.

 

Why?

[CUBZ99]

The question becomes what is the Cubs response going to be if Z has another incident next year? If it's going to be a suspension, then I'd be willing to eat all but 5 million. If they are going to let things slide because it's the last year of his deal, then I'd probably need to have 8-10 million savings to make the deal.

 

Suspension or banned from the team? If he does something and they suspend him a couple days, I don't give a crap. If they are going to be idiots and ban him from the team again, that's a problem.

 

Let's be realistic, if Zambrano stays and there is another incident they are not going to suspend him for a couple of days.

 

Why?

 

 

Zambrano's incidents have been a chronic issue for the team. If they do allow him to come back, I'm sure he will be kept on a very short lease with a zero tolerance type policy.

[jersey cubs fan]

Zambrano's incidents have been a chronic issue for the team. If they do allow him to come back, I'm sure he will be kept on a very short lease with a zero tolerance type policy.

 

So, like if he yells at somebody in the dugout he's kicked off the team no questions asked?

[Conky]

I would think that Z knows by now that this is his last chance and that the only thing he can do now is make an impression for his next employer. The Cubs shutting him down in a meaningless month was the right call. Not allowing him back is a mistake. I think Theo realizes this. Having him pitch in Venezuela is the first step in the process of reconciliation.

 

Bring back Z with a new manager and new front office. He'll be fine. That or he won't have a job come next year. Let's get the benefit of Z in a contract/ career saving year.

[UK1679666180]

I would think that Z knows by now that this is his last chance and that the only thing he can do now is make an impression for his next employer. The Cubs shutting him down in a meaningless month was the right call. Not allowing him back is a mistake. I think Theo realizes this. Having him pitch in Venezuela is the first step in the process of reconciliation.

 

Bring back Z with a new manager and new front office. He'll be fine. That or he won't have a job come next year. Let's get the benefit of Z in a contract/ career saving year.

 

Given they would get nothing or little in return beyond another bad contract, I am inclined to agree with this.

[CubColtPacer]

I would think that Z knows by now that this is his last chance and that the only thing he can do now is make an impression for his next employer. The Cubs shutting him down in a meaningless month was the right call. Not allowing him back is a mistake. I think Theo realizes this. Having him pitch in Venezuela is the first step in the process of reconciliation.

 

Bring back Z with a new manager and new front office. He'll be fine. That or he won't have a job come next year. Let's get the benefit of Z in a contract/ career saving year.

 

Z's had last chances before (for example coming off the suspension in 2010). He is who he is. The Cubs can either accept that and move along with him or trade him. I don't think though that being on his best behavior will help either avoid incidents or help his pitching. The falling off of his pitching is not due to any concentration issues but much more likely to be the result of an arm that has logged a lot of pitches.

[Conky]

I would think that Z knows by now that this is his last chance and that the only thing he can do now is make an impression for his next employer. The Cubs shutting him down in a meaningless month was the right call. Not allowing him back is a mistake. I think Theo realizes this. Having him pitch in Venezuela is the first step in the process of reconciliation.

 

Bring back Z with a new manager and new front office. He'll be fine. That or he won't have a job come next year. Let's get the benefit of Z in a contract/ career saving year.

 

Z's had last chances before (for example coming off the suspension in 2010). He is who he is. The Cubs can either accept that and move along with him or trade him. I don't think though that being on his best behavior will help either avoid incidents or help his pitching. The falling off of his pitching is not due to any concentration issues but much more likely to be the result of an arm that has logged a lot of pitches.

 

From a psychological standpoint, I see this a bit differently. Zambro is his own worst enemy. He is realizing this I think. As you say, he is what he is, and we love him for that. At least many of us do. He is a fiery competitor filled with desire and at times, frustration. What we don't like is when Z takes things too far. He needs to develop on off switch. Behaviors can be learned and modified if the person in question truly wants to change. But change comes from within.

 

My idea is not for the Cubs to put him on a leash. My thought was to unleash the beast and let him make or break on his own terms. No one can control Z. Only Z can do that. It is a fool's exercise to even try. I say welcome him back. Have a sit down about expectations with no threats or constraints. Then turn him loose on the NL. I think Z will rise to the challenge.

[Springfield_CUBBY]

I would think that Z knows by now that this is his last chance and that the only thing he can do now is make an impression for his next employer. The Cubs shutting him down in a meaningless month was the right call. Not allowing him back is a mistake. I think Theo realizes this. Having him pitch in Venezuela is the first step in the process of reconciliation.

 

Bring back Z with a new manager and new front office. He'll be fine. That or he won't have a job come next year. Let's get the benefit of Z in a contract/ career saving year.

 

Given they would get nothing or little in return beyond another bad contract, I am inclined to agree with this.

If he can pitch, he should pitch for us. I have a hard time believing that the performance of other players will diminish just because Z is on the team, and might say mean things to players from time to time. These are millionaires at the top of their field. Are we saying that can't handle his mere presence?

[seanimal]

i'm not sure i've understood this situation from the start. i thought the proper reaction, and i must say i executed it well, was "lol z being z." instead, and perhaps predictably, it was blown up into this "he QUIT on his TEAM EXCLAMATION POINTS THERES NO TURNING BACK". when really, all that was needed was an apology and some more sessions with his shrink. you gotta love him for who he is (an millionaire man-child, effective starting pitcher), not who you want him to be.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

i'm not sure i've understood this situation from the start. i thought the proper reaction, and i must say i executed it well, was "lol z being z." instead, and perhaps predictably, it was blown up into this "he QUIT on his TEAM EXCLAMATION POINTS THERES NO TURNING BACK". when really, all that was needed was an apology and some more sessions with his shrink. you gotta love him for who he is (an millionaire man-child, effective starting pitcher), not who you want him to be.

 

The organization that was in place at the time had a long history of using scapegoats to take the heat off of bad seasons, and a few members of the media had a long history of complying (especially when the proposed scapegoat was hispanic).

[Backtobanks]

All of this discussion about Zambrano comes down to this: if we can get something decent for him and not eat too much of his contract, we should trade him. If we're getting next to nothing for him and/or we're eating too much of his contract, we should keep him. The question becomes what is a "decent" return and how much of his contract do we have to pay.