Kaplan: Royals interested in Z

[Hollandsworths mug]

Ronnie Cedeno?

 

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Now you guys are reaching. Na, he didn't suck or anything.

[Sammy Sofa]

So Steve Stone, Bob Brenly, Lou Piniella, Ryan Dempster and countless other baseball managers and executives all must be racist because they call certain latin players out for not hustling or being idiots?

 

Good logic.

 

I think there's a certain amount of systemic racism in the way players are perceived, yes.

 

So now we lump Demp in?

 

What pattern has he established?

[Sammy Sofa]

Pie.

[Sammy Sofa]

Guzman.

[Hollandsworths mug]

Pie.

 

Bust.

[Sammy Sofa]

Piniella.

[Hollandsworths mug]

Guzman.

Proof?

[Bull]

He covers the Latino stereotype spectrum by calling Z both lazy and hot tempered and fiery.

 

not to defend Kaplan, but just to be clear...you don't think Z is hot tempered and you don't think he reported out of shape?

 

I think both of those are true. I think those are true of a lot of players, but the ones being pointed out share one characteristic.

 

Then he is a bad example in the argument.

 

Z is one of my favorite Cubs. I was at the game in Atlanta, and argued with the Braves fans around me that there's no way Z was throwing at Chipper based on the situation. Unfortunately sportscenter the next morning showed replays which made me a liar.

 

I still think Z is awesome and should be brought back. But I also think he's at Andruw Jones level of, "man this guy could be so much more".

[Sammy Sofa]

Guzman and Kaplan both have existed in the last 8 years.

 

I have absolutely no idea how to find Kaplan's comments about him.

 

Unless you are him and know this isn't so, in which case do you find Hollandsworth's new dome flattering?

[SouthSideRyan]

Can I talk about how happy I am that Ronny Cedeno is more valuable than that rat [expletive] Ryan Theriot?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

He covers the Latino stereotype spectrum by calling Z both lazy and hot tempered and fiery.

 

not to defend Kaplan, but just to be clear...you don't think Z is hot tempered and you don't think he reported out of shape?

 

I think both of those are true. I think those are true of a lot of players, but the ones being pointed out share one characteristic.

 

Then he is a bad example in the argument.

 

Z is one of my favorite Cubs. I was at the game in Atlanta, and argued with the Braves fans around me that there's no way Z was throwing at Chipper based on the situation. Unfortunately sportscenter the next morning showed replays which made me a liar.

 

I still think Z is awesome and should be brought back. But I also think he's at Andruw Jones level of, "man this guy could be so much more".

 

We're establishing a pattern here. I do not, however, think there's any reason to believe that Zambrano is lazy.

 

And more to the point, I believe that if Zambrano were white, then those same attributes would either be given a pass or lauded.

 

I could make a list of Santo incidents and Zambrano incidents, scramble them up, and I bet the average non-Cubs baseball fan couldn't tell which ones belonged with which player. Yet Zambrano's incidents prove that he's an unacceptable, lazy clubhouse cancer, while Santo was a fiery competitor and beloved hero.

 

Soriano gets ripped for taking Felix Pie clubbing. When Mark Grace led numerous young players into drunkenness, it's just part of his charm.

[Bull]

He covers the Latino stereotype spectrum by calling Z both lazy and hot tempered and fiery.

 

not to defend Kaplan, but just to be clear...you don't think Z is hot tempered and you don't think he reported out of shape?

 

I think both of those are true. I think those are true of a lot of players, but the ones being pointed out share one characteristic.

 

Then he is a bad example in the argument.

 

Z is one of my favorite Cubs. I was at the game in Atlanta, and argued with the Braves fans around me that there's no way Z was throwing at Chipper based on the situation. Unfortunately sportscenter the next morning showed replays which made me a liar.

 

I still think Z is awesome and should be brought back. But I also think he's at Andruw Jones level of, "man this guy could be so much more".

 

We're establishing a pattern here. I do not, however, think there's any reason to believe that Zambrano is lazy.

 

And more to the point, I believe that if Zambrano were white, then those same attributes would either be given a pass or lauded.

 

I could make a list of Santo incidents and Zambrano incidents, scramble them up, and I bet the average non-Cubs baseball fan couldn't tell which ones belonged with which player. Yet Zambrano's incidents prove that he's an unacceptable, lazy clubhouse cancer, while Santo was a fiery competitor and beloved hero.

 

Soriano gets ripped for taking Felix Pie clubbing. When Mark Grace led numerous young players into drunkenness, it's just part of his charm.

 

I don't know where to start. I don't find Grace charming. His slumpbusting ways are disgusting.

 

Santo was a great ballplayer, belongs in the Hall, but was never confused with a member of mensa, and was clearly not loved by the sportswriters or many of his peers (apparently because they hate white guys). He was what he was.

 

Zambrano is an elite talent, and while I love his competitive nature on the mound, he makes Joaquin Andujar (sp?) look like Mohatma Gandhi.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

 

I don't know where to start. I don't find Grace charming. His slumpbusting ways are disgusting.

 

Santo was a great ballplayer, belongs in the Hall, but was never confused with a member of mensa, and was clearly not loved by the sportswriters or many of his peers (apparently because they hate white guys). He was what he was.

 

Zambrano is an elite talent, and while I love his competitive nature on the mound, he makes Joaquin Andujar (sp?) look like Mohatma Gandhi.

 

If yours were the majority opinion of Cubs fans and the local media, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Guest]

Out of curiosity, can anyone name three white players Kaplan (or the rest of the Chicago media) have called lazy in the last five years?

[Bull]

Out of curiosity, can anyone name three white players Kaplan (or the rest of the Chicago media) have called lazy in the last five years?

This is all I got http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CD8QtwIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DICXbLipxFg4&ei=Uky7TsXZK6SpsAKY6t2hCA&usg=AFQjCNFSuQeOPTajgz3Z2PapD1G-Uv82Ng&sig2=1RImZ7RwIXKeswsXYmKQYQ

[SouthSideRyan]

He covers the Latino stereotype spectrum by calling Z both lazy and hot tempered and fiery.

 

not to defend Kaplan, but just to be clear...you don't think Z is hot tempered and you don't think he reported out of shape?

 

I think both of those are true. I think those are true of a lot of players, but the ones being pointed out share one characteristic.

 

Then he is a bad example in the argument.

 

Z is one of my favorite Cubs. I was at the game in Atlanta, and argued with the Braves fans around me that there's no way Z was throwing at Chipper based on the situation. Unfortunately sportscenter the next morning showed replays which made me a liar.

 

I still think Z is awesome and should be brought back. But I also think he's at Andruw Jones level of, "man this guy could be so much more".

 

We're establishing a pattern here. I do not, however, think there's any reason to believe that Zambrano is lazy.

 

And more to the point, I believe that if Zambrano were white, then those same attributes would either be given a pass or lauded.

 

I could make a list of Santo incidents and Zambrano incidents, scramble them up, and I bet the average non-Cubs baseball fan couldn't tell which ones belonged with which player. Yet Zambrano's incidents prove that he's an unacceptable, lazy clubhouse cancer, while Santo was a fiery competitor and beloved hero.

 

Soriano gets ripped for taking Felix Pie clubbing. When Mark Grace led numerous young players into drunkenness, it's just part of his charm.

 

Mark Grace didn't need steroids, he had Marlboro Reds!!

[Sammy Sofa]

Does Prior count? Though that was more stupidly calling him a [expletive] and weak as opposed to lazy.

[MWV]

I recall it being insinuated that Scott Eyre hated conditioning and his favorite thing about playing for Dusty was that he didn't make the veterans run. That's all I got.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

When Rod Beck is out of shape, it's because he's an awesome dude. (Not that he wasn't).

[Sammy Sofa]

When Rod Beck is out of shape, it's because he's an awesome dude. (Not that he wasn't).

 

Hell, the stereotype of the lovable fat baseball player is practically as old as the game itself.

[Gmoney23]

With the Kaplan bitching ruining this thread I have only one question, can Zambrano still hit 96+ on the gun. He is still young and has never had any major arm trouble, why is his velocity down so much?

[seanimal]

When Rod Beck is out of shape, it's because he's an awesome dude. (Not that he wasn't).

 

Hell, the stereotype of the lovable fat baseball player is practically as old as the game itself.

 

which, for a long time, was just white guys.

 

to try to deny that racism hasn't tainted cubs fandom is really putting the blinders on. there has been repeated statements by black players on and off the cubs about the things said to them from the stands and in correspondence. non-white players are routinely criticized for some perceived lack of work ethic or effort (despite being the most valuable players on our team). the embarrassing homemade fukudome "land of the rising sun" inspired t-shirts and signs, managing to invoke almost every conceivable asian stereotype imaginable. the ronnie woo woo minstrel show. the list goes on and on and on, unfortunately. just because one can list a total of five black guys that are respected and carry a good reputation for their time as a cub, don't think for a second that they never had to grin a bear it through some trying moments from a fan base that can turn ugly in the worst way if you lack an obvious european heritage.

[CUBZ99]

Out of curiosity, can anyone name three white players Kaplan (or the rest of the Chicago media) have called lazy in the last five years?

 

I can't believe you are adding fuel to this ridiculous line of attack. I know it is popular to attack Kaplan and call him racist, but it is pathetic that just because he calls out certain members of the club he is all of the sudden racist. Have you looked at the 40 man roster lately to see how many caucasians were on the roster? And on the big league team, they are definitely not in the majority. Out of the white guys on the roster, point out the ones that you believe are lazy or appear to have a poor work ethic? Wells? (maybe)

 

As for an answer to your question, Hundley's work ethic was called into severe question. Farnsworth was another guy that took a lot of heat for partying too much and not being prepared for games. Kaplan piled on Prior quite a bit for being a wimp and lazy. More recently, Wells was picked on in the media for having a poor work ethic. But I guess that doesn't forward your story line.

 

I'm pretty sure that Kaplan heaped praise on Lee during his period with the Cubs and I remember the night when Soriano was signed, how ecstatic he was the Cubs signed him. I think it is sad that he can't be free to criticism players without people questioning whether he is a racist or not.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Out of curiosity, can anyone name three white players Kaplan (or the rest of the Chicago media) have called lazy in the last five years?

 

I can't believe you are adding fuel to this ridiculous line of attack. I know it is popular to attack Kaplan and call him racist, but it is pathetic that just because he calls out certain members of the club he is all of the sudden racist. Have you looked at the 40 man roster lately to see how many caucasians were on the roster? And on the big league team, they are definitely not in the majority. Out of the white guys on the roster, point out the ones that you believe are lazy or appear to have a poor work ethic? Wells? (maybe)

 

As for an answer to your question, Hundley's work ethic was called into severe question. Farnsworth was another guy that took a lot of heat for partying too much and not being prepared for games. Kaplan piled on Prior quite a bit for being a wimp and lazy. More recently, Wells was picked on in the media for having a poor work ethic. But I guess that doesn't forward your story line.

 

He asked for three lazy white players in the last five years. You come up with one maybe.

 

Now quick, how many white players who have been described as "scrappy gamers" in the last five years can you come up with?

 

I'm pretty sure that Kaplan heaped praise on Lee during his period with the Cubs and I remember the night when Soriano was signed, how ecstatic he was the Cubs signed him. I think it is sad that he can't be free to criticism players without people questioning whether he is a racist or not.

 

Again, nobody said that minority players were never criticized or that you can't criticize players.

 

I'm simply pointing out two trends:

 

1) White players continually get away with, and are sometimes lauded for, virtually identical behavior to what minority players are criticized for.

 

2) The criticism of Hispanic players tends to fall into a very specific stereotype.

 

Your attempt to dispute didn't address either of those points. It's just another long list of "some of the media's best friends are minorities!"

[Sammy Sofa]

Calling Prior a wimp wasn't calling him lazy. Few mocked his work ethic; the common tract was that he was weak and fragile, not lazy.

 

And are you kidding me with Farnsworth? The guy was practically a folk hero for the fights and drinking and whoring.

 

And it always comes back to Hundley. The guy was just SO despicable on every level that there was simply no possible way anyone could like or defend him. He's an obvious extreme. Look at players like, however, the "Cajun Connection" or DeRosa or Walker or Burnitz. They all had varying degrees of the "gamer/gives it his all/plays his ass off" reputation, yet scant evidence that they deserved it anymore than the players who get tagged as "lazy/selfish/not caring" did.