Re: What would you deal Garza for?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Holy crap at Rizzo's numbers in the majors last year. I know, sample size, but jesus

 

still not as bad as ian stewart's.

 

I wonder if there are any other sub .550 ops guys out there the cubs would be interested in.

 

Buy Low

[Guest]

rizzo doesn't seem to be a great player, his minor league number outside of the pcl are ok, his patience is average and his power is a bit above average but he doesn't seem to be that good.

 

FWIW, he's only a few months past his 22nd birthday and has been pretty young for every level he has played at.

[Guest]

From BleacherNation regarding a potential Cubs/Padres deal...

 

UPDATE: Some of the other names I’m hearing bounced around in the talks include Orlando Hudson, Casey Kelly, Keyvius Sampson, Simon Castro, Jedd Gyorko, Robbie Erlin, and Joe Weiland. Obviously the Cubs wouldn’t be getting all of them (or even most). These are just some of the names that the Cubs are interested in, or – in Hudson’s case – that the Padres want to ship back to the Cubs. A three-team deal with the Rangers (who would get Garza) is also a possibility.

 

UPDATE II: The Cubs are still in active discussions with the Padres, I’m told, but it’s pretty complicated when you’ve got this many parts involved. The Cubs’ most valuable piece is Matt Garza, but the Padres may prefer to get the prospect-equivalent of Garza, rather than the pitcher, himself. That means a third team is necessary, and the Rangers have been involved. Bringing in a third team makes completing an already “complicated” deal a real “pain” (not my words). The two/three sides will continue to discuss a deal until they reach an agreement or seem hopelessly gridlocked. These things tend to take on a life of their own, and the deal could evolve into yet another incarnation. Or, it could just wilt on the vine. With this many players involved and such high stakes, I couldn’t say a deal is more than 50/50 to get done. You’ve also got the Prince Fielder pursuit and Yu Darvish post as a backdrop for these discussions, which only complicates things further. I’m doing my best to get the most complete and reliable information I can, but, given the circumstances and the moving parts, you can understand how the best I can give you is: (1) they’re talking, (2) a trade might be completed soon, (3) or a trade might be completed in a week, and (4) or a trade might be completed never.

 

UPDATE III: I’m told the biggest hold up, from the Cubs’ perspective, is making sure they get the right pitchers/pitching prospects included in the deal. While Rizzo may have been the impetus for the discussions, the Cubs don’t appear to be interested in moving Garza unless some very, very good pitchers/pitching prospects are included. That is to say, Rizzo may not necessarily be “the centerpiece” of a completed deal, such as there is a centerpiece, and such as the sides are actually able to consummate a deal (which, again, remains very much in doubt).

 

http://www.bleachernation.com/2011/12/18/sources-say-the-cubs-are-talking-to-the-padres-about-first-baseman-anthony-rizzo/

[mookie]

Wow, that may be the most drool worthy thing I have read since the Theo rumors started swirling.

 

!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

I don't know but if they are actively pursuing a 1st baseman I'd say they aren't serious about Prince. I kind of like what they are trying to do.

[Clem Fandango]

This is going to get pretty exciting here, I have a feeling. Also, I know Rizzo sucked in his MLB time this past season, but his AAA numbers this season were bad ass, especially so for a 21 year old.

[WilcoFan]

I'd be interested to find out from people how they'd feel about the following scenario. It's a hypothetical, so please don't argue with the likelihood of the premises:

 

The Cubs trade Garza, miss out on Darvish, and don't pursue Fielder. They sign a few middling veterans to fill holes in the roster. However, the after trades they make (Garza and whomever else you want to consider), the Cubs end up with 5-6 players in the Baseball America minor league prospect top 40 (assuming Jackson and Sczcr are already in), almost all of whom are ML-ready in 2012.

 

Would this be a successful offseason?

[MSG T]

From BleacherNation regarding a potential Cubs/Padres deal...

 

UPDATE: Some of the other names I’m hearing bounced around in the talks include Orlando Hudson, Casey Kelly, Keyvius Sampson, Simon Castro, Jedd Gyorko, Robbie Erlin, and Joe Weiland. Obviously the Cubs wouldn’t be getting all of them (or even most). These are just some of the names that the Cubs are interested in, or – in Hudson’s case – that the Padres want to ship back to the Cubs. A three-team deal with the Rangers (who would get Garza) is also a possibility.

 

UPDATE II: The Cubs are still in active discussions with the Padres, I’m told, but it’s pretty complicated when you’ve got this many parts involved. The Cubs’ most valuable piece is Matt Garza, but the Padres may prefer to get the prospect-equivalent of Garza, rather than the pitcher, himself. That means a third team is necessary, and the Rangers have been involved. Bringing in a third team makes completing an already “complicated” deal a real “pain” (not my words). The two/three sides will continue to discuss a deal until they reach an agreement or seem hopelessly gridlocked. These things tend to take on a life of their own, and the deal could evolve into yet another incarnation. Or, it could just wilt on the vine. With this many players involved and such high stakes, I couldn’t say a deal is more than 50/50 to get done. You’ve also got the Prince Fielder pursuit and Yu Darvish post as a backdrop for these discussions, which only complicates things further. I’m doing my best to get the most complete and reliable information I can, but, given the circumstances and the moving parts, you can understand how the best I can give you is: (1) they’re talking, (2) a trade might be completed soon, (3) or a trade might be completed in a week, and (4) or a trade might be completed never.

 

UPDATE III: I’m told the biggest hold up, from the Cubs’ perspective, is making sure they get the right pitchers/pitching prospects included in the deal. While Rizzo may have been the impetus for the discussions, the Cubs don’t appear to be interested in moving Garza unless some very, very good pitchers/pitching prospects are included. That is to say, Rizzo may not necessarily be “the centerpiece” of a completed deal, such as there is a centerpiece, and such as the sides are actually able to consummate a deal (which, again, remains very much in doubt).

 

http://www.bleachernation.com/2011/12/18/sources-say-the-cubs-are-talking-to-the-padres-about-first-baseman-anthony-rizzo/

 

 

I realize this is complete conjecture, is it possible they're looking at Headley and Rizzo plus others? I don't know how even things would be with that.

[Backtobanks]

From MLBTR (The Newberg Report):

 

And here’s the bigger point: Texas could trade Matt Harrison, Ramirez, Moreland, Leonys Martin, and Jordan Akins to the Cubs for Garza and Sean Marshall and survive it both at the big league level and on the farm.

[Backtobanks]

I'd be interested to find out from people how they'd feel about the following scenario. It's a hypothetical, so please don't argue with the likelihood of the premises:

 

The Cubs trade Garza, miss out on Darvish, and don't pursue Fielder. They sign a few middling veterans to fill holes in the roster. However, the after trades they make (Garza and whomever else you want to consider), the Cubs end up with 5-6 players in the Baseball America minor league prospect top 40 (assuming Jackson and Sczcr are already in), almost all of whom are ML-ready in 2012.

 

Would this be a successful offseason?

 

For a small market team rebuilding for 2015 it would be a successful offseason. I expect the Cubs to contend by 2013 which means you had better sign/trade for a few impact players this offseason. Don't forget that there are plenty of minor league top 40 prospects who don't make it in the ML.

[Little Slide Rooter]

My idea of a successful rebuilding offseason, meaning of no Fielder or Darvish would be:

 

trade Garza and maybe Russell who the Padres expressed interest in during the winter meeting for a package centered around Rizzo and Headley

 

Trade Soto to TB for Davis or Niemann. If they want to expand the deal to add Byrd or or even Soriano surely something can be worked out there.

 

Shop Marshall. He's an impending free agent and is quietly our 3rd best trade chip, possibly 2nd if somebody thinks that he can translate his success to starting. Then again, if we did move Garza, Z, and Demp I'd be very interested in giving it a try in spring training. Shark too.

 

Sign Cespedes and/or Solar. Maholm too if he's cheap.

 

Since this clearly wouldnt lead to a win now team get what we can for Dempster, Z, Soriano, Byrd, and Marmol. We then open 2012 with

 

1B Rizzo(or LaHair if Rizzo looks like he needs a year in Iowa)

2B Stewart

SS Castro

3B Headley

LF Cespedes

CF Jackson

RF DeJesus

C Castillo

SP Demp/Z-realistically I dont see both moved if either

SP Marshall/Shark

SP Davis/Niemann

SP Maholm

SP Wells, I guess

CL Cashner

RP Marshall/Shark

RP Dolis

RP Beliveau

RP Carpenter

RP Wood (if he doesn't mind babysitting this bunch)

Weathers, Gaub, Castillo(rule 5), Maine, Jackson and Searle can battle it out for the last pen spot. If wood doesn't come back and or Marshalls traded with Shark in the rotation it could be 2-3 spots.

 

Bench 4 of Baker, DeWitt, Barney, Bianchi, LaHair, Campana

Bench Clevenger

[Clem Fandango]

From MLBTR (The Newberg Report):

 

And here’s the bigger point: Texas could trade Matt Harrison, Ramirez, Moreland, Leonys Martin, and Jordan Akins to the Cubs for Garza and Sean Marshall and survive it both at the big league level and on the farm.

 

What a snoozefest

[WilcoFan]

From MLBTR (The Newberg Report):

 

And here’s the bigger point: Texas could trade Matt Harrison, Ramirez, Moreland, Leonys Martin, and Jordan Akins to the Cubs for Garza and Sean Marshall and survive it both at the big league level and on the farm.

 

What a snoozefest

 

I would hope that if Hoyer/Theo doesn't hear the word "Profar" in discussions, then he thinks long and hard about the idea of Quantity over Quality.

[Clem Fandango]

I'm tired of seeing Mitch Moreland's name thrown around like he's some sort of legit trade target for teams who need a first baseman. Mitch Moreland is crap.

 

Also, who is "Ramirez" in that quote?

[Splendid Splinter]

I'm tired of seeing Mitch Moreland's name thrown around like he's some sort of legit trade target for teams who need a first baseman. Mitch Moreland is crap.

 

Also, who is "Ramirez" in that quote?

 

 

Neil Ramirez

[Clem Fandango]

Ugh. That's the worst package of players I could possibly imagine for Matt Garza. Whoever floated that idea should be tarred and feathered.

 

EDIT: And I just realized he was also talking of including Marshall. Christ

[dew1679666265]

I'd be interested to find out from people how they'd feel about the following scenario. It's a hypothetical, so please don't argue with the likelihood of the premises:

 

The Cubs trade Garza, miss out on Darvish, and don't pursue Fielder. They sign a few middling veterans to fill holes in the roster. However, the after trades they make (Garza and whomever else you want to consider), the Cubs end up with 5-6 players in the Baseball America minor league prospect top 40 (assuming Jackson and Sczcr are already in), almost all of whom are ML-ready in 2012.

 

Would this be a successful offseason?

 

Two things:

 

1) I think it would depend on the middling veterans. Did they find high value guys like DeJesus and 1-year contracts, or did they overpay for mediocrity like giving Paul Maholm 2-3 year deals? I think that's important when considering point two.....

 

2) If we don't add any players who are currently impact players (not guys who might develop into one 2-3 years from now) this offseason, then we absolutely have to next season. Thus, we need to still be freeing up a ton of money next year. I really like beefing up the minors and that alone would make it a positive offseason, but it would leave us in a spot where we absolutely have to sign/trade for 2 of whichever elite FA pitchers come available next offseason. So if we pour 6-10 million into long term contracts for guys who likely won't provide that type of value (Maholm), it will lessen our ability to spend big on the elite guys next year.

 

There is no reason why a major market team should have to forfeit 2-3 seasons. I could live with giving up on next season if it massively improves our farm system (but only then), but we then must set ourselves up to be able to contend for and sign multiple impact FA/trade targets next offseason.

[davell]

That proposed package actually has lots of talent in it. It may not be the talent I necessarily WANT from Texas, but Harrison was a 4 WAR pitcher last year. I don't think that's sustainable for him, but he's a solid 3 in the NL most likely. Moreland is a very average starting 1B at best, maybe a corner OF, but he IS a decent major league starter at least. I'm not a huge fan of Martin myself, as I'm not sure how his bat plays in the majors. But he IS a top 100 prospect at least. I like Neil Ramirez quite a bit myself. Not as a headliner, but I think he's every bit the prospect that McNutt is anyway. I know nothing about Akins, other than he is a 3rd round HS kid from the 2010 draft. Lots of talent there, just not the guys I'd want if given my pick. That said, I'm not sure another team would give us that much either for Garza and Marshall. I'd rather get Perez. Olt, Ramirez, and Rizzo from SD, if we trade both Garza and Marshall.

[Splendid Splinter]

From MLBTR (The Newberg Report):

 

And here’s the bigger point: Texas could trade Matt Harrison, Ramirez, Moreland, Leonys Martin, and Jordan Akins to the Cubs for Garza and Sean Marshall and survive it both at the big league level and on the farm.

 

I like how this package is for BOTH Garza and Marshall. Of course they would survive at both major and minor league level. The only one they would miss having or wish they kept is Martin (and that's a maybe) while they gain a #2 SP at worst AND a great set up man. The rest are throw-ins or expendable for the Rangers. I'm not sure why you have both Martin and Akins in a package like this. Replace Akins with Perez then we're getting somewhere. That's 3 SPs who are all MLB ready this year or next year at the latest plus a 1B and CF. I still think Rangers system is a "quantity over quality" type system where there's really no "centerpiece" prospect/player beside Profar or Holland and I seriously doubt Rangers would trade either one in a package for Garza.

 

Ugh. That's the worst package of players I could possibly imagine for Matt Garza. Whoever floated that idea should be tarred and feathered.

 

Yeah... it's pretty bad. It's as bad as Garza or Castro to Red Sox for Theo's compensation.

[WilcoFan]

I still think Rangers system is a "quantity over quality" type system where there's really no "centerpiece" prospect/player beside Profar or Holland and I seriously doubt Rangers would trade either one in a package for Garza.

 

I've read this now about both San Diego and Texas (quantity over quality). Is there a "centerpiece" player anywhere in baseball that might match up well with Garza, or are the Cubs going to be forced (if they decide to trade Garza this offseason) to go quantity over singular quality?

 

I mean, Martin Perez and Jurickson Profar were both BA top 12 midseason prospects. I can't imagine anyone who has been rumored to be engaged with the Cubs would have a more highly regarded prospect to deal.

[bukie]

If you're trading Garza, you're looking to trade production for potential. The potential has to line up to at least feasibly equal the production of what you're sending out, or else it's not worth making the trade. Trading production for farm system depth isn't really much to write home about.

[WilcoFan]

If you're trading Garza, you're looking to trade production for potential. The potential has to line up to at least feasibly equal the production of what you're sending out, or else it's not worth making the trade. Trading production for farm system depth isn't really much to write home about.

 

 

So would sending Garza out and getting a return of Rizzo and either Profar or Perez be equivalent? What would be required to make it equivalent?

[huff]

i dont think the rangers are in the running for darvish so they are going to need a front rotation guy. i kno wthey have Ogando and moving Feliz but what if that experiment is unsuccessful? they need Garza. the guy is a stud and produced in the al east. The conversation in acquiring a front of rotation stud under team control for 2 seasons and a modest contract has to start with your best pitching prospect, hitting prospect, and 2 more mid teen rated players in your system. Not quantity but quality. The deal starts with Perez and either Olt or Profar with ramirez as a kicker i would have to believe. Perfect world the cubs net out something like this

 

Cubs get: Rizzo, Perez, Olt, Ramirez, Hudson

Rangers get: Garza+marmol

Padres get: Russell+barney+rated prospect like a dolis.

 

Cubs clear around 10-12M to use hopefully on Darvish. if not darvish then Jackson and maholm.

[shnsajax]

There really is no reason to talk about Garza and the Rangers without Holland.

[mookie]

There really is no reason to talk about Garza and the Rangers without Holland.

 

This is the second time I have seen this, and I still don't understand why people think Texas would give him up. It would be sort of similar to us giving up Castro.