Zambrano traded to Marlins for Chris Volstad (P. 8)

[seanimal]

i liked this part:

 

However, with the contract came a new level of expectations from the team and the fan base and Zambrano collapsed under the weight of those expectations. He was a negative influence on the team with multiple incidents that alienated his teammates and a succession of managers and coaches and after he was ejected in August in a game in Atlanta and told clubhouse personnel that he was retiring his fate was sealed.

 

you tell 'em dave!

[Conky]

i liked this part:

 

However, with the contract came a new level of expectations from the team and the fan base and Zambrano collapsed under the weight of those expectations. He was a negative influence on the team with multiple incidents that alienated his teammates and a succession of managers and coaches and after he was ejected in August in a game in Atlanta and told clubhouse personnel that he was retiring his fate was sealed.

 

you tell 'em dave!

 

 

Can Theo moonlight as Bears GM?

[questionmarkgrace]

I dunno, it seemed like a no brainer to me, but I'm not as smart as Theo so maybe his strategy is better. To me it seems like a decent way to use resources to get more talent. As it stands right now, it doesn't seem like we are even close to spending the supposed $200 mil budget that many reported, unless that budget is going to fixing Wrigley Field.

 

i don't even care about the $200m or whatever. with the cubs dumping zambrano's money and having ARam's contract expire, they were never going to be able to spend that (especially with the new draft rules) unless they went out and signed a few high-priced free agents. there shouldn't be a requirement to spend a certain amount of money each year; that's a nice way to end up with dumbass contracts. if they love next year's free agent class or something, pocket the profits from this season and then go crazy next year. i'm not excited that the team is probably going to be lousy in 2012, but there are smart people running the organization and i'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

 

This is the whole problem though. Next year's free agent class is not good. At least for our positions of need. 1st base is a black hole for a few years to come. 3rd base options next year: Wright is the best but has still had 2 clunker years out of the last 3, Youklis at age 34 but he has constant back issues, or Mark Reynolds Adam Dunn redux. There are options in the outfield but most of them are on the wrong side of 30. There is pitching but that is the one area of player development that we have actually had success. At least if we get fielder this year we can be tolerable to watch and some what competitive in our division 3rd place?. Then in 13 we can add pitching and hopefully one of theo's lightning in the bottle moves will have panned out. By 14' maybe we're on the cusp of something. And prince fielder would only be 30.

Without adding a legit hitter though this team is screwed. Outside of Starlin Castro we have a bunch of marginal underperforming players some of which may get better some not. We dont have any power hitting prospects and trading for one only results in a net loss because we would have to give up some of our better prospects, the ones we need in the future. So basically if we dont sign prince we will either be watching the lyle overbay's of the world playing first base for the next couple years or be paying a significant cost the way of prospects to acquire a power hitting 1st baseman. If we dont have legit power threats at our traditional positions of power how the hell can we improve? Ok so most assume we will go the development route, the team will be crap for 5 plus years then because thats how far away our top prospects are from competing. The problem is its no sure fire thing going the development route. In 02 we had one of the best farm systems in the league. injuries and flame outs left us with one of the worst 4 years later. We should be using the Rangers and the Giants as a model for how to turn our organization around not the 03 marlins.

 

Which leads to my next point. New drafting and international signing rules are in place which means that the playing field has been leveled and we can no longer out spend teams in the acquisition of amateur talent without being penalized. So please stop saying that not spending on free agents some how allows the cubs to build a solid foundation on the farm. Because it doesnt. We cant do what we did last year in the draft and it wont ever happen again. We will be back to drafting for talent like everyone else. So theres no need to 'pour' money into the farm. If Theo and Jed do what they are good at the farm will be on its way with each succeeding draft.

 

40 plus million came off the books this year. So far we have acquired a Mc Donalds, Theo, and a handful of change of scenery guys. So in the mean time why the heck arent the cubs spending money?

[cubsfan26]

40 plus million came off the books this year. So far we have acquired a Mc Donalds, Theo, and a handful of change of scenery guys. So in the mean time why the heck arent the cubs spending money?

 

 

That's why us fans should be patient and see what the team looks like in spring training. Remember we still have a good amount of money to spend and there's still plenty of good free agents on the market. Personally I would be shocked if this team payroll is below 120-125 million come opening day and still think they will be competitive next season. According to the media this team is rebuilding and next season doesn't matter, but I don't believe that. Are they retooling with a long term version towards the future? Yes and they are willing to trade assets for a high price. But none of the moves they made so far has thrown away next season either. They signed DeJesus which helps next years team, they traded Marshall but got a SP back to pitch in the majors next year. Losing Marshall hurts the pen, but you will like have Cashner there this season and have other good young relievers to fill in. They traded Colvin/LeMahieu but got Ian Stewart to be their third baseman next season. Now they swapped Zambrano who pitched like a back end starter last year and got a back end starter in return to replace him. Both have upside to pitch better due to Zambrano past history and Volstad talent/upside/age.

 

 

So is the team better? Well you can make a case that the defense has improved with DeJesus and Stewart. You can make a case that the rotation is younger/deeper then last season. While the bullpen might not be as good. It can still be pretty good with Cashner likely taking Marshall spot and Wood to still resign. DeJesus is a upgrade in RF offensivly and you can make a case Stewart could come close to matching Carlos Pena offensive production from last year. Yes so far we added nobody who could replace Ramirez bat yet. But we also don't know yet who is playing first next season yet either. Or if they are going to get rid of Soriano and replace him with a better bat(you gotta hope Soto hits better next season as well). My point is this team hasn't done anything yet to make me think they will suck way worse then 2010-2011 and I think they could even be better. Is better enough to be a playoff team?

 

 

 

Probably not unless things really go there way. But I don't see any of this throwing away next year yet, especially when they have money to spend and good free agents still available. Of course we could trade Garza, Soto, Byrd and Marmol and that could all change. But right now that's all media hype and rumors. Plus who says they don't get a young front in starter ready to take over for Garza back in the deal if that does happen? Or don't go out and sign a SP to replace Garza. My point is this off season is still incomplete, they can still go in the direction of adding players to make them better and have the money to do so. I'm sure they will still consider selling off assets for high return. But I believe Theo when he says they aren't going to just punt away next season either. So far none of these off season moves would suggest that (most of players added help next season and beyond) and there still in the position to sign and trade for players who improve the major league team next year.

Edited January 5, 2012 by cubsfan26

[17 Seconds]

it kind of feels like they got rid of zambrano to appease casual fans who were wondering why we aren't getting anybody this offseason.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

d) we don't really know how zambrano was regarded in the locker room. his teammates may have been fed up with him to the point that removing him from a team that is likely to be lousy is preferable to having him around with the small hope that he pitching and behaves better.

 

Yea, I don't normally buy into chemistry arguments. Ever. But Zambrano is pretty much the definition of the exception to that belief.

 

I'll ask the same question I asked about Milton Bradley. Who on the team last year struggled due to Zambrano's presence?

 

that's a silly question. obviously nobody can quantify what impact a misbehaving player has on his teammates. are you suggesting that chemistry problems don't exist and that bad teammates don't ever have an effect on the performances of players around them?

 

 

If bad teammates hurt performance that much, then Ron Santo shouldn't be going to the Hall of Fame.

 

Anyway, I don't love this trade the way I did the Marshall trade, but there's enough there with Volstad that I'll give Hoyer the benefit of the doubt for now.

[toonsterwu]

There's a part of me that was mildly pondering if the focus on acquiring team-controlled young starters that are in the bigs right now is perhaps an attempt to hit on one of them and spin them away for more talent. Teams do tend to over-pay a bit more for team-controlled young pitchers that have some level of success. I mean, even Doug Fister netted a decent return (Wells, Furbush, Ruffin - though I'm not actually all that big on any of the three).

[Little Slide Rooter]

I guess now that I've slept on it, I don't love the trade, or even like it but I guess it's not the worst thing in the world. I still think that we should have waited to let him build some more value in the summer and see who bites in June or July, but I don't know how much more of a return we could have ended up with. I still don't like the return, but I highly doubt that it was as quick as:

 

Jed/Theo: OK, we'll pick up 15-16 mil of Big Zs salary, what will you give us

Marlins. Chris Volstad

Jed/Theo: ALRIGHT, Volstad!

 

I'm sure some degree of discussions have been going on since the initial rumors of the Marlins being interested in Z a few months ago and this is pretty much the best we could get. A young, former top prospect and 2.5 mil. I'd have rather at least Lars Anderson, as Z would have been more than a solid #4 behind lester, Beckett, and Bucholtz for The Red Sox, but who's to say that we didn't try to sell him to them. They didn't want him last summer, they probably don't want him now.

 

As for Volstad, he joins Ian Stewart, Casey Weathers, Travis Wood, Andy Sonnenstine, and Jeff Bianchi as guys who can help the team in the long term, and if not, oh well.

[KingCubsFan]

I guess now that I've slept on it, I don't love the trade, or even like it but I guess it's not the worst thing in the world. I still think that we should have waited to let him build some more value in the summer and see who bites in June or July, but I don't know how much more of a return we could have ended up with. I still don't like the return, but I highly doubt that it was as quick as:

 

Jed/Theo: OK, we'll pick up 15-16 mil of Big Zs salary, what will you give us

Marlins. Chris Volstad

Jed/Theo: ALRIGHT, Volstad!

 

I'm sure some degree of discussions have been going on since the initial rumors of the Marlins being interested in Z a few months ago and this is pretty much the best we could get. A young, former top prospect and 2.5 mil. I'd have rather at least Lars Anderson, as Z would have been more than a solid #4 behind lester, Beckett, and Bucholtz for The Red Sox, but who's to say that we didn't try to sell him to them. They didn't want him last summer, they probably don't want him now.

 

As for Volstad, he joins Ian Stewart, Casey Weathers, Travis Wood, Andy Sonnenstine, and Jeff Bianchi as guys who can help the team in the long term, and if not, oh well.

It just seems needlessly risky to wait for Zambrano to build his value up by the trading deadline. First, he hasn't shown much in terms of pitching for a year (including the winter league). Second, I find it hard to believe somebody is going to be willing to give up much more than Chris Volstad for 8-9 starts of Z down the stretch, knowing that he could blow up at any time. People throw the "trade him at the deadline" card around a lot, but has there ever been any proof that teams actually get more at the deadline? I doubt it. Volstad has some upside, and that's about all you can ask for in a trade like this. Z's pitching and mishandling by past management killed any value he had. And my guess is that there was a lot more going on behind the scenes that we don't know about that could also help explain the trade.

[Backtobanks]

40 plus million came off the books this year. So far we have acquired a Mc Donalds, Theo, and a handful of change of scenery guys. So in the mean time why the heck arent the cubs spending money?

 

 

That's why us fans should be patient and see what the team looks like in spring training. Remember we still have a good amount of money to spend and there's still plenty of good free agents on the market. Personally I would be shocked if this team payroll is below 120-125 million come opening day and still think they will be competitive next season. According to the media this team is rebuilding and next season doesn't matter, but I don't believe that. Are they retooling with a long term version towards the future? Yes and they are willing to trade assets for a high price. But none of the moves they made so far has thrown away next season either. They signed DeJesus which helps next years team, they traded Marshall but got a SP back to pitch in the majors next year. Losing Marshall hurts the pen, but you will like have Cashner there this season and have other good young relievers to fill in. They traded Colvin/LeMahieu but got Ian Stewart to be their third baseman next season. Now they swapped Zambrano who pitched like a back end starter last year and got a back end starter in return to replace him. Both have upside to pitch better due to Zambrano past history and Volstad talent/upside/age.

 

 

So is the team better? Well you can make a case that the defense has improved with DeJesus and Stewart. You can make a case that the rotation is younger/deeper then last season. While the bullpen might not be as good. It can still be pretty good with Cashner likely taking Marshall spot and Wood to still resign. DeJesus is a upgrade in RF offensivly and you can make a case Stewart could come close to matching Carlos Pena offensive production from last year. Yes so far we added nobody who could replace Ramirez bat yet. But we also don't know yet who is playing first next season yet either. Or if they are going to get rid of Soriano and replace him with a better bat(you gotta hope Soto hits better next season as well). My point is this team hasn't done anything yet to make me think they will suck way worse then 2010-2011 and I think they could even be better. Is better enough to be a playoff team?

 

 

 

Probably not unless things really go there way. But I don't see any of this throwing away next year yet, especially when they have money to spend and good free agents still available. Of course we could trade Garza, Soto, Byrd and Marmol and that could all change. But right now that's all media hype and rumors. Plus who says they don't get a young front in starter ready to take over for Garza back in the deal if that does happen? Or don't go out and sign a SP to replace Garza. My point is this off season is still incomplete, they can still go in the direction of adding players to make them better and have the money to do so. I'm sure they will still consider selling off assets for high return. But I believe Theo when he says they aren't going to just punt away next season either. So far none of these off season moves would suggest that (most of players added help next season and beyond) and there still in the position to sign and trade for players who improve the major league team next year.

 

You have to be the most optimistic poster here or you're totally delusional. I'm betting on delusional.

[jersey cubs fan]

It just seems needlessly risky to wait for Zambrano to build his value up by the trading deadline.

 

How is that risky? What are you risking?

[TruffleShuffle]

rough day when the guy who routinely suggests preposterous 4 team deals is calling you delusional.

[jersey cubs fan]

it kind of feels like they got rid of zambrano to appease casual fans who were wondering why we aren't getting anybody this offseason.

 

Maybe that was the hold up in Kerry Wood resigning.

[pccubfan]

Kind of a meh trade. Cubs gave up the better and older pitcher, who is a headcase, for a younger worse pitcher. I don't think that the Cubs are much worse after the trade and with some luck could be better. Hopefully, this deal hasn't been the focus of the offseason.

[BeerHere]

I'll be pretty angry if they don't make a significant effort to land Soler. I'd love for them to go after Cespedes as well but of the two I would prefer Soler. He needs some time in the minors and the team appears to be building for a 2012/2013 run. Moving Zambrano needed to happen but I sincerely hope they make a run at some guys that will contribute to wins rather than just "clubhouse culture". If there are players saying that they will not play on a team with Z anymore, they need to keep in mind that the team has been terrible for a couple years now. They are in the business of winning and not just getting paid and having fun while doing it. Clubhouse culture is great and all, but wins are much more important. I'm glad Z is gone but at some point we need to start seeing moves made that upgrade the team and not just the locker room. Edited January 5, 2012 by BeerHere

[erik316wttn]

Will Z finally get his black guy in Miami?

[BeerHere]

I expect Zambrano and Guillen to make plenty of comments this season saying how terrible it was in Chicago and how great it is to be with people that understand them in Miami.

[Brian]

Anybody that actually thought Zambrano was going to pitch for the Cubs, was living in an idealized world. Theo saying Z would be given a chance and having lunch with him, honestly may have gotten them up form a never going to make it A baller to a mediocre major league pitcher in return. No matter what bone head racist also thinks so, this is a win.

[jersey cubs fan]

Anybody that actually thought Zambrano was going to pitch for the Cubs, was living in an idealized world. Theo saying Z would be given a chance and having lunch with him, honestly may have gotten them up form a never going to make it A baller to a mediocre major league pitcher in return. No matter what bone head racist also thinks so, this is a win.

 

nonsense

[Guest]

I guess we now know that Theo's lunch with Zambrano was to find out which teams he would be willing to waive his no trade clause to be traded to.

 

Theo is clearly blowing up Hendry's team, and Hendry's team was such a mess, that he's forced to go with a makeshift team until he can get the personnel to build Theo's team. Most of the pieces being added to this team are guys who have the potential of generating quality trade value at the deadline.

[KingCubsFan]

It just seems needlessly risky to wait for Zambrano to build his value up by the trading deadline.

 

How is that risky? What are you risking?

Because it's very possible you get nothing but a headache from him. Volstad isn't great, but at least he has the potential to be something.

[Sammy Sofa]

It just seems needlessly risky to wait for Zambrano to build his value up by the trading deadline.

 

How is that risky? What are you risking?

Because it's very possible you get nothing but a headache from him. Volstad isn't great, but at least he has the potential to be something.

 

Volstad is a serious non-tender candidate.

[KingCubsFan]

It just seems needlessly risky to wait for Zambrano to build his value up by the trading deadline.

 

How is that risky? What are you risking?

Because it's very possible you get nothing but a headache from him. Volstad isn't great, but at least he has the potential to be something.

 

Volstad is a serious non-tender candidate.

Right. He's certainly not great, but as the Fangraphs article points out, he may be able to provide some value. I don't really expect much from him, but I never really expected we'd get anything for Zambrano anyways.

[davearm2]

It just seems needlessly risky to wait for Zambrano to build his value up by the trading deadline.

 

How is that risky? What are you risking?

A young starting pitcher with some upside and 3 years of team control, apparently.

[SouthSideRyan]

It just seems needlessly risky to wait for Zambrano to build his value up by the trading deadline.

 

How is that risky? What are you risking?

A young starting pitcher with some upside and 3 years of team control, apparently.

 

1 year (at market value) of team control that matters.