Zambrano traded to Marlins for Chris Volstad (P. 8)

[Conky]

Rationalization kicking in. If this is really how think the market for Carlos Zambrano was, then I guess maybe there really is stuff he did that didn't come to light.

 

I've long suspected that this was the case.

 

I don't subscribe to overblown "chemistry" theories, but I do think Theo and Jed inherited a situation with Z that had become untenable. Theo may not buy into it either, but it the players really do, and they feel really strongly about it, then it becomes an issue. And as it became clear the team wasn't likely to compete in 2012, there was no reason not to trade him.

 

I think it's also likely Miami was the only team that was going to be willing to take him on, largely because of Ozzie.

 

Plagiarizing my article on NSBB's home page, are you?

 

Theo Epstein and Jed Hoyer inherited an untenable situation.

 

Plagiarism and intellectual property. Interesting concepts. Original thought? Let's try to quash that or copy it. Sound familiar boys? The "old guard" here has a ways to go imho. No offense to you, Rob. Just an observation.

[SouthSideRyan]

Ho

 

Lee

 

Sheet

[Rob]

Rationalization kicking in. If this is really how think the market for Carlos Zambrano was, then I guess maybe there really is stuff he did that didn't come to light.

 

I've long suspected that this was the case.

 

I don't subscribe to overblown "chemistry" theories, but I do think Theo and Jed inherited a situation with Z that had become untenable. Theo may not buy into it either, but it the players really do, and they feel really strongly about it, then it becomes an issue. And as it became clear the team wasn't likely to compete in 2012, there was no reason not to trade him.

 

I think it's also likely Miami was the only team that was going to be willing to take him on, largely because of Ozzie.

 

Plagiarizing my article on NSBB's home page, are you?

 

Theo Epstein and Jed Hoyer inherited an untenable situation.

 

Plagiarism and intellectual property. Interesting concepts. Original thought? Let's try to quash that or copy it. Sound familiar boys? The "old guard" here has a ways to go imho. No offense to you. Rob. Just an observation.

 

I can't figure out exactly what you're hinting at, but the fact you specifically said "no offense to you, Rob" makes me think I should probably be offended.

[XZero771679666304]

lol

[Conky]

Rationalization kicking in. If this is really how think the market for Carlos Zambrano was, then I guess maybe there really is stuff he did that didn't come to light.

 

I've long suspected that this was the case.

 

I don't subscribe to overblown "chemistry" theories, but I do think Theo and Jed inherited a situation with Z that had become untenable. Theo may not buy into it either, but it the players really do, and they feel really strongly about it, then it becomes an issue. And as it became clear the team wasn't likely to compete in 2012, there was no reason not to trade him.

 

I think it's also likely Miami was the only team that was going to be willing to take him on, largely because of Ozzie.

 

Plagiarizing my article on NSBB's home page, are you?

 

Theo Epstein and Jed Hoyer inherited an untenable situation.

 

Plagiarism and intellectual property. Interesting concepts. Original thought? Let's try to quash that or copy it. Sound familiar boys? The "old guard" here has a ways to go imho. No offense to you. Rob. Just an observation.

 

I can't figure out exactly what you're hinting at, but the fact you specifically said "no offense to you, Rob" makes me think I should probably be offended.

 

Not at all.

[XZero771679666304]

 

Not at all.

 

Curiosity has got me...what on earth were you trying to say there?

[Rob]

 

Not at all.

 

Curiosity has got me...what on earth were you trying to say there?

 

Seconded

[Old Style]

Looks like the team learned Hendry's cowardly ways and blamed their suckiness on a scapegoat.

We should have traded the rest of the team and built a champion around Z.

[Guest]

I thought he was making some kind of movie reference at first. But the more I read, the more WTF I got.

[CUBZ99]

Looks like the team learned Hendry's cowardly ways and blamed their suckiness on a scapegoat.

 

I don't particularly like the move, but I don't think Theo did this to be cowardly, or blame the Cubs' past suckiness on anyone. Based on his comments he sought advice from nearly everyone close to the situation and made an informed decision. Even though I don't care for the move, I like the willingness to call it what it is.

[jersey cubs fan]

Looks like the team learned Hendry's cowardly ways and blamed their suckiness on a scapegoat.

 

I don't particularly like the move, but I don't think Theo did this to be cowardly, or blame the Cubs' past suckiness on anyone. Based on his comments he sought advice from nearly everyone close to the situation and made an informed decision. Even though I don't care for the move, I like the willingness to call it what it is.

 

I meant the players, who supposedly kept telling him Zambrano can't come back. Guys like Wood, Dempster..., who's left on this team now?

[CUBZ99]

Looks like the team learned Hendry's cowardly ways and blamed their suckiness on a scapegoat.

 

I don't particularly like the move, but I don't think Theo did this to be cowardly, or blame the Cubs' past suckiness on anyone. Based on his comments he sought advice from nearly everyone close to the situation and made an informed decision. Even though I don't care for the move, I like the willingness to call it what it is.

 

I meant the players, who supposedly kept telling him Zambrano can't come back. Guys like Wood, Dempster..., who's left on this team now?

 

Oops, looks like I misread it. I agree to some extent, but if they asked for the player's opinion and the player gives them an opinion, isn't it up to Theo to sift through what is reasonable and what is just sour grapes?

[biittner77]

Looks like the team learned Hendry's cowardly ways and blamed their suckiness on a scapegoat.

 

I don't particularly like the move, but I don't think Theo did this to be cowardly, or blame the Cubs' past suckiness on anyone. Based on his comments he sought advice from nearly everyone close to the situation and made an informed decision. Even though I don't care for the move, I like the willingness to call it what it is.

 

I meant the players, who supposedly kept telling him Zambrano can't come back. Guys like Wood, Dempster..., who's left on this team now?

 

Oops, looks like I misread it. I agree to some extent, but if they asked for the player's opinion and the player gives them an opinion, isn't it up to Theo to sift through what is reasonable and what is just sour grapes?

 

Why ask the player's opinion?

[jersey cubs fan]

Looks like the team learned Hendry's cowardly ways and blamed their suckiness on a scapegoat.

 

I don't particularly like the move, but I don't think Theo did this to be cowardly, or blame the Cubs' past suckiness on anyone. Based on his comments he sought advice from nearly everyone close to the situation and made an informed decision. Even though I don't care for the move, I like the willingness to call it what it is.

 

I meant the players, who supposedly kept telling him Zambrano can't come back. Guys like Wood, Dempster..., who's left on this team now?

 

Oops, looks like I misread it. I agree to some extent, but if they asked for the player's opinion and the player gives them an opinion, isn't it up to Theo to sift through what is reasonable and what is just sour grapes?

 

Why ask the player's opinion?

 

To avoid a fried chicken and beer catastrophe.

[biittner77]

But I love fried chicken and beer.

[CubColtPacer]

Looks like the team learned Hendry's cowardly ways and blamed their suckiness on a scapegoat.

 

I don't particularly like the move, but I don't think Theo did this to be cowardly, or blame the Cubs' past suckiness on anyone. Based on his comments he sought advice from nearly everyone close to the situation and made an informed decision. Even though I don't care for the move, I like the willingness to call it what it is.

 

I meant the players, who supposedly kept telling him Zambrano can't come back. Guys like Wood, Dempster..., who's left on this team now?

 

Oops, looks like I misread it. I agree to some extent, but if they asked for the player's opinion and the player gives them an opinion, isn't it up to Theo to sift through what is reasonable and what is just sour grapes?

 

Why ask the player's opinion?

 

Theo from his comments seems to believe in a minimum level of team chemistry. He'll give you a lot of time to make it work, but at some point it becomes too divisive (which is similar to how they handled the Manny situation in Boston). Reading between the lines, it sounds like if Theo had gotten a mixed response he might have given Z another chance but with nobody in the clubhouse willing to support him he felt it was time for him to go.

 

Plus, asking the players makes them feel respected by the new general manager, which could have benefits down the line in contract negotiations.

[SouthSideRyan]

But I love fried chicken and beer.

 

Preferrably together in some sort of fermented chicken drink.

[biittner77]

Theo from his comments seems to believe in a minimum level of team chemistry. He'll give you a lot of time to make it work, but at some point it becomes too divisive (which is similar to how they handled the Manny situation in Boston). Reading between the lines, it sounds like if Theo had gotten a mixed response he might have given Z another chance but with nobody in the clubhouse willing to support him he felt it was time for him to go.

 

That's disappointing, if true. Winning games does wonders for team chemistry.

 

Plus, asking the players makes them feel respected by the new general manager, which could have benefits down the line in contract negotiations.

 

I suppose it can't hurt. It just seems more Hendryish than smart. What if he asks the players, they all say get rid of him but then he can't find a taker?

[Guest]

I'm sure Theo would've made more of an effort if Z had 3 years left on his deal and was producing like he was in his prime. As it stands, look at Z without any of the personal stuff. He's 1 year to free agency. You can't offer him arbitration because of his end of contract salary. He was below average last year, even if you give him a full win for his bat. He hasn't thrown 200 IP since 2007 and has the oldest 30 year old arm this side of Livan. Anyone trading for Z will get a pitcher for 1 year only that will put up somewhere between a 1-3 WAR, and isn't a guarantee to give you 30 starts. Even for free, that's not exactly a huge prize. To get a similar caliber starter with more years of team control at the same cost is a pretty decent move, even without making any consideration for Z's antics and reputation.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm sure Theo would've made more of an effort if Z had 3 years left on his deal and was producing like he was in his prime. As it stands, look at Z without any of the personal stuff. He's 1 year to free agency. You can't offer him arbitration because of his end of contract salary. He was below average last year, even if you give him a full win for his bat. He hasn't thrown 200 IP since 2007 and has the oldest 30 year old arm this side of Livan. Anyone trading for Z will get a pitcher for 1 year only that will put up somewhere between a 1-3 WAR, and isn't a guarantee to give you 30 starts. Even for free, that's not exactly a huge prize. To get a similar caliber starter with more years of team control at the same cost is a pretty decent move, even without making any consideration for Z's antics and reputation.

I still look at this recent decrease in IP as something the coaching staff caused unnecessarily with the move to the bullpen, and the management made worse with an overreaction. The performance is down as well, but the lack of IP is as much a Cubs problem as a Zambrano problem, if not more.

[Banedon]

With Z gone, and Wood as yet unsigned, there are no remaining players from the 2003 team.

[Guest]

I'm sure Theo would've made more of an effort if Z had 3 years left on his deal and was producing like he was in his prime. As it stands, look at Z without any of the personal stuff. He's 1 year to free agency. You can't offer him arbitration because of his end of contract salary. He was below average last year, even if you give him a full win for his bat. He hasn't thrown 200 IP since 2007 and has the oldest 30 year old arm this side of Livan. Anyone trading for Z will get a pitcher for 1 year only that will put up somewhere between a 1-3 WAR, and isn't a guarantee to give you 30 starts. Even for free, that's not exactly a huge prize. To get a similar caliber starter with more years of team control at the same cost is a pretty decent move, even without making any consideration for Z's antics and reputation.

 

I still look at this recent decrease in IP as something the coaching staff caused unnecessarily with the move to the bullpen, and the management made worse with an overreaction. The performance is down as well, but the lack of IP is as much a Cubs problem as a Zambrano problem, if not more.

 

The Cubs certainly had something to do with it, both with moving him to the bullpen and the suspension last year. On the other hand, he missed time in '08 and '09 and was on pace to be short of 200 IP before the suspension. Plus, regardless of cause, it's still a threshold he hasn't reached in 4 years, which is a consideration for someone who will have varied expectation for their performance.

[CUBZ99]

Looks like the team learned Hendry's cowardly ways and blamed their suckiness on a scapegoat.

 

I don't particularly like the move, but I don't think Theo did this to be cowardly, or blame the Cubs' past suckiness on anyone. Based on his comments he sought advice from nearly everyone close to the situation and made an informed decision. Even though I don't care for the move, I like the willingness to call it what it is.

 

I meant the players, who supposedly kept telling him Zambrano can't come back. Guys like Wood, Dempster..., who's left on this team now?

 

Oops, looks like I misread it. I agree to some extent, but if they asked for the player's opinion and the player gives them an opinion, isn't it up to Theo to sift through what is reasonable and what is just sour grapes?

 

Why ask the player's opinion?

 

Why not? I would hope that any GM would try to utilize all of the information available, before eating $18MM in salary.

[jersey cubs fan]

The Cubs certainly had something to do with it, both with moving him to the bullpen and the suspension last year. On the other hand, he missed time in '08 and '09 and was on pace to be short of 200 IP before the suspension. Plus, regardless of cause, it's still a threshold he hasn't reached in 4 years, which is a consideration for someone who will have varied expectation for their performance.

 

Oh yeah, he isn't a 200 IP guy anyway. But there's a difference between a 29-30 start 180-190 IP guy and a 130 IP guy who has as many appearances out of the bullpen as he does as a starter.

[XZero771679666304]

I'm sure Theo would've made more of an effort if Z had 3 years left on his deal and was producing like he was in his prime. As it stands, look at Z without any of the personal stuff. He's 1 year to free agency. You can't offer him arbitration because of his end of contract salary. He was below average last year, even if you give him a full win for his bat. He hasn't thrown 200 IP since 2007 and has the oldest 30 year old arm this side of Livan. Anyone trading for Z will get a pitcher for 1 year only that will put up somewhere between a 1-3 WAR, and isn't a guarantee to give you 30 starts. Even for free, that's not exactly a huge prize. To get a similar caliber starter with more years of team control at the same cost is a pretty decent move, even without making any consideration for Z's antics and reputation.

I still look at this recent decrease in IP as something the coaching staff caused unnecessarily with the move to the bullpen, and the management made worse with an overreaction. The performance is down as well, but the lack of IP is as much a Cubs problem as a Zambrano problem, if not more.

 

That's largely true, but he hasn't been the picture of health, either.

 

But given the circumstances (the non-chemistry/attitude ones), the hows and whys don't really matter. It was sunk cost, he wasn't putting the Cubs over the top in 2012 and he wasn't getting extended. There was nothing to be gained by keeping him and something (debate how much of a something that is if you will, but it was more than would be had by letting him walk) was gained by trading him.

 

Like TT said, if Z were under contract for an additional year or two, Theo probably tries to hold on to him. But as it stood, that wouldn't have made much sense.