2011 Chicago Bulls Offseason thread

[Guest]

Yep, what Rose needs is a teammate that will draw the defense into the paint.

[UMFan83]

I am seriously getting so sick of every thread on RealGM being about Dwight Howard.

 

"Howard not working on extension with Miami"

"(some obscure article) says Bulls pursuing Howard"

"Does getting Howard put us over the Heat?"

 

I am sick of it because even if Howard leaves Orlando I don't think there's more than a 5% chance we get him.

 

Second of all, while Howard would clearly improve this team, I don't think it will improve the team as much as getting a top SG like SJax or Richardson would, when you factor in what we'd give up to get him.

 

Anyways, I am bitching about Howard posts and inadvertantly attempting to initiate another Howard discussion on NSBB. Oh well. It's not that I don't want people thinking big, it's that its such a pipe dream. We should be focusing on the more realistic scenario of getting over the top with a high quality 2 guard.

 

you're kidding, right?

 

you honestly think getting stephen jackson or jason richardson would be better than getting howard? you're overvaluing the ability of a complimentary guard to rose being able to get his own shot some of the time. with howard, we won't even need to think about having a capable scoring 2. the world would open up for rose and he would be able to do whatever he wants on the court.

 

This is what I think. Howard is clearly a game changer. Awesome defensive center, fantastic offensive force. Clearly he makes the Bulls better.

 

At the same time, with the exception of against a few more traditional and phyisical centers (Howard being one of them), our low post defense is among the top 5 in the league. We have ridiculous defensive depth there as well with Noah, Gibson, Asik and if Thomas comes back. Are any of them as good as Howard? No but it's not a huge upgrade defensively. Especially if you consider you might have to give up 2 of Noah/Taj/Asik to get him and lose that depth.

 

On offense, he will clearly be an upgrade and will open up Rose on the perimeter to do things. That said, Howard from my impressions rarely moves very far away from the paint and will constantly be a physical impediment to given Rose space in the paint. When Rose is best he is getting to the hole finishing, rarely does he ever score efficiently taking primarily perimeter based shots. Getting a great shooter who can create their own shot would stretch the floor out and likely give Rose a much bigger area to drive. At least theoretically.

 

Then finally you consider the end of games. A tired argument for Howard defenders and bashers alike, but having watched my share of Magic games (likely no more than games you've watched), I see a majority of late game opportunities in close games taken by someone like Nelson or Richardson, not Howard. Why? Because teams hack Howard whenever he gets the ball in the post late in games. So blah blah blah can't hit fts, etc. So where does that leave the Bulls? The Bulls lost 4 straight games down the stretch to Miami because Rose had to create offense all by himself. How much does that change with Howard in there? It will change it some...and lets be honest, Howard making 60% of his FTs is better than Rose forcing up some offbalanced contested jumper. But I just haven't seen enough of Howard impacting games late for me to believe he will be the guy that is going to completely change the impact of close games on the offensive end. I believe having another perimeter scorer who can drive, create their own shot, and best of all hit their open outside shots will make a huge difference in how the Bulls fare is close games against elite defensive teams. I mean maybe we'll blow out more teams with Howard, making less close game opportunities, but then again we were essentially tied with miami in point differential this year so I'm not sure.

 

Cliffs notes:

1. Howard better defensively but the difference isn't huge when you consider depth especially.

2. Howard hanging out in/near the paint with his defender all game doesn't help Rose's ability to attack the rim and limit his jumpshots

3. Getting Howard, IMO, doesn't help the Bulls finish in late game situations offensively as much as a 2nd scorer who can create and hit from long range would.

[Magnetic Curses]

Yep, what Rose needs is a teammate that will draw the defense into the paint.

 

rose's mid-range game is fine.

[ChiCubsFan]

Yep, what Rose needs is a teammate that will draw the defense into the paint.

 

rose's mid-range game is fine.

 

Howard's defender won't be able to help on Rose's penetration as much either. Regardless Rose has to get better at creating offense for his bigs in the paint with his penetration.

[DivineBovine]

Yep, what Rose needs is a teammate that will draw the defense into the paint.

 

rose's mid-range game is fine.

 

Howard's defender won't be able to help on Rose's penetration as much either. Regardless Rose has to get better at creating offense for his bigs in the paint with his penetration.

 

 

If the defense collapses on Rose driving, he tosses it up in the air and Howard dunks it. It wouldn't be a problem. But I agree. It's never happening.

[Banedon]

ESPN Chicago doing an evaluation of a Bulls player per day. So far they've done Boozer, Bogans and Noah...

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/bulls/category/_/name/2011-bulls-reviews

[Derwood]

hasn't Howard implied (or outright said) he wants to stay in a warm weather city?

[wolf stansson]

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2011-06-08/report-warriors-discuss-ellis-trade-with-multiple-teams

The Warriors’ trade discussions regarding leading scorer Monta Ellis have gone well beyond the Philadelphia 76ers, who were reportedly in talks about moving Andre Iguodala to Golden State in exchange for Ellis.

 

The Warriors have also been shopping Ellis to Atlanta, Chicago, Memphis, Orlando and the Lakers, the San Francisco Chronicle reports.

 

I'm not near sold it would work, but at least it's intriguing.

[Old Style]

What would it take to get Ellis?

[rawaction]

What would it take to get Ellis?

 

Probably Deng or Noah. Deng would work salary-wise. Noah is probably who GS would want. He'd be a great fit for them.

[SouthSideRyan]

What would it take to get Ellis?

 

Probably Deng or Noah. Deng would work salary-wise. Noah is probably who GS would want. He'd be a great fit for them.

 

After July 1st, Noah matches up salary-wise.

[rawaction]

What would it take to get Ellis?

 

Probably Deng or Noah. Deng would work salary-wise. Noah is probably who GS would want. He'd be a great fit for them.

 

After July 1st, Noah matches up salary-wise.

 

Yeah, I know. But I put Deng salary-wise because GS probably wouldn't take him if given a choice.

[WrigleyField 22]

What would it take to get Ellis?

 

Probably Deng or Noah. Deng would work salary-wise. Noah is probably who GS would want. He'd be a great fit for them.

 

After July 1st, Noah matches up salary-wise.

No he'll be BYC so his outgoing salary is only worth 50% of his incoming salary for GS. Essentially you'd need a package deal.

 

Of course any rule existing now is subject to change with a new CBA.

[DivineBovine]

I'll bite on Monta Ellis. I like him a lot. He is an amazing scorer who can create his own shot. That's exactly what they need. Way better than Gordon or Crawford.

 

He might be a bad defender, but who knows what Thibs can do for him. He's athletic enough. I'd be interested.

[UMFan83]

Name a player that averaged more shots per game than Derrick Rose this season.

 

Not that it's the worst thing in the world, but someone who takes more shots than Derrick Rose and has a lower TS% is an interesting choice. I'd take him tho....I think they would both allow each other to take less overall shots each.

[SouthSideRyan]

What would it take to get Ellis?

 

Probably Deng or Noah. Deng would work salary-wise. Noah is probably who GS would want. He'd be a great fit for them.

 

After July 1st, Noah matches up salary-wise.

No he'll be BYC so his outgoing salary is only worth 50% of his incoming salary for GS. Essentially you'd need a package deal.

 

Of course any rule existing now is subject to change with a new CBA.

 

Help me out, what's BYC?

[Garwilly]

What would it take to get Ellis?

 

Probably Deng or Noah. Deng would work salary-wise. Noah is probably who GS would want. He'd be a great fit for them.

 

After July 1st, Noah matches up salary-wise.

No he'll be BYC so his outgoing salary is only worth 50% of his incoming salary for GS. Essentially you'd need a package deal.

 

Of course any rule existing now is subject to change with a new CBA.

 

Help me out, what's BYC?

 

Base year compensation

 

From wiki:

 

Certain players in the first few months of a new contract are subject to base year compensation (BYC). The intent of BYC is to prevent teams from re-signing players to salaries specifically targeted to match other salaries in a trade (in other words, salary should be based on basketball value, not trade value). A BYC player's trade value as outgoing salary is 50% of his new salary, or his previous salary, whichever is greater. BYC applies only to players who re-sign with their previous team and receive a raise greater than 20%. It also applies only when (and as long as) the team is over the salary cap.

[SouthSideRyan]

So I assume BYC expires at the start of the new season?

[WrigleyField 22]

So I assume BYC expires at the start of the new season?

No I believe its a year from the date the contract is signed, or following the July moratorium, whichever comes sooner. So basically not until July of 2012 for Noah. Although not sure what you mean by new season. In CBA terms a season is July 1 - June 30. Whereas from a fan standpoint we usually mean new season as end of October.

 

Edit, looked it up:

 

If either of the above apply, then the player is considered a base year player. A player remains a base year player for six months, or until June 30, whichever comes later. When trading a base year player, the salary used for comparison is the player's previous salary, or 50% of the first-year salary in his new contract, whichever is greater.

...

For extended rookie scale contracts, the player's BYC begins on the day after the July Moratorium which precedes the first season of the extension. For example, if an extension of a rookie scale contract is signed on 10/30/05, his BYC begins on 7/12/06, because the first season of the extension is 2006-07. A player's BYC goes away if the team falls below the salary cap, the player signs with a different team, or the player is traded.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.html (for any NBA CBA questions)

[DivineBovine]

Deng for Monta?

 

http://www.contracostatimes.com/warriors/ci_18244337?nclick_check=1

No Warriors trade involving Monta Ellis is imminent, but it seems inevitable the star guard will be traded.

 

Whether it's to Philadelphia, Chicago, Memphis or Denver, the Warriors appear comfortable with the reality that moving Ellis presents their best chance to improve the team. Recent developments have shown he still has value, and most of the Warriors' decision-makers aren't tied to him.

 

With the draft less than two weeks away, it all seems to be creating the perfect opportunity to trade Ellis.

 

The Warriors are on the hunt to add a difference maker via a trade. Multiple sources confirm they have talked to Memphis about Rudy Gay, Philadelphia about Andre Iguodala, Chicago about Luol Deng and Denver about Nene.

[UMFan83]

I can't see GarPax giving up Deng after what he did last year. Pax has been too protective of his core during his tenure to let that move occur. Plus Deng's defense was a difference maker for the Bulls this year.

[DivineBovine]

Of course I appreciate Deng.

 

He's a solid player. But mainly for his defense and his other intangibles. In terms of offense, he's not a good ball handler, gets stripped or blocked an awful lot. When Rose is double or triple teamed, Deng is not the guy to make the other team pay.

 

I remember when he was untouchable in a trade for Kobe, and then he went to please take him for free. I think he's in between. To me, he's expendable.

[CubColtPacer]

Of course I appreciate Deng.

 

He's a solid player. But mainly for his defense and his other intangibles. In terms of offense, he's not a good ball handler, gets stripped or blocked an awful lot. When Rose is double or triple teamed, Deng is not the guy to make the other team pay.

 

I remember when he was untouchable in a trade for Kobe, and then he went to please take him for free. I think he's in between. To me, he's expendable.

 

The problem is who do the Bulls get that can replace him? Deng played over 39 minutes a game last season (and 42.9 in the playoffs) so the Bulls would probably have to replace him with two different players. And subtracting Deng/adding Ellis is a huge step down defensively for the Bulls. Depending on who they got to replace Deng, the Bulls might not be a defensive first team anymore. From an outsider's view, Deng might not be the best player in the world but he fills so many roles for that Bulls team that I don't know how they give him up for anything less than a star. Noah would probably be easier to replace.

[wolf stansson]

I'll trade Deng if we're getting Iguodala in another deal later.

[bcl412]

The last two posts sum up how I feel as well. Ellis is a damn good scorer but Deng is too valuable of a player, especially defensively to lose him unless you know you will get someone else eventually.

 

Unless Thibs has some magical powers and can make Ellis decent on the defensive end it's a trade I wouldn't do. I could easily live with losing Noah for Ellis though.