Cubs Acquire Garza for Archer, Lee, Guyer, Chirinos & Fuld

[dew1679666265]

Colvin has his issues but he seems to rarely make weak contact, he may never be a high OBP or even a .300 hitter but with some improvement he could potentially hit 30 homers and put up a .260/.320/.500. Defintely a serviceable player if he is a #6 or #7 hitter in the lineup. Plus he is cheap.

 

For a right fielder, an .820 OPS isn't real good for a starter. That's fine for a 4th OF and that's how I'm in favor of using him, but with us likely getting a low .800s OPS from Soriano for the next 4 years and probably breaking in a rookie CF in Jackson as early as 2012, it's not a good idea to settle for an .820 OPS, even if he's cheap, as your starting RF.

 

After the season he just had, it's entirely possible that Colvin might have better trade value than just a 4th OF would normally have. If true, then the Cubs should be open to trading him. If not, then the best idea is to keep him as the primary backup in right and keep Fuku as the starter.

[A New Era]

Look, I'm no longer a Hendry appologizer. But let's not just assume some team was willing to give a high ceiling top prospect for tyler Colvin, and knock Hendry just because Colvin is still a Cub. I'm sure Hendry would part with Colvin for the right peice, but I highly doubt anyone was blowing Hendry away with an offer for him.

[Sammy Sofa]

The Tyler Colvin hate has reached an absurd level around here.

 

It's not hate to value him lower than better players.

Correct. It's hate to be absolutely convinced that he sucks now and will suck in the future when he's still pretty young and has shown some potential.

 

I agree with those that value him lower than Brett Jackson and I am concerned about his ability to be selective at the plate and have a good OBP. But sometimes, they way he's talked about is rather absurd.

 

Horse [expletive]. The Cubs have been making very strong hints that they want him to be the starting RF if they could move Fukudome, and that's just absurd.

[CubsWin]

The Tyler Colvin hate has reached an absurd level around here.

 

It's not hate to value him lower than better players.

Correct. It's hate to be absolutely convinced that he sucks now and will suck in the future when he's still pretty young and has shown some potential.

 

I agree with those that value him lower than Brett Jackson and I am concerned about his ability to be selective at the plate and have a good OBP. But sometimes, they way he's talked about is rather absurd.

 

Horse [expletive]. The Cubs have been making very strong hints that they want him to be the starting RF if they could move Fukudome, and that's just absurd.

Not that I necessarily disagree, but this is kind of besides the point. We were talking about the way some people on the site seem to be talking about Colvin's value.

 

Last year was his first in the league, he was 24 and could still improve. But some people on this site talking about him like he's the plague, will always be the plague and that it so obvious that they're right that anyone who doesn't immediately agree is an idiot. If he continues to OPS just above .800 then he will likely be used as a 4th outfielder. Rightly or wrongly, it seems Hendry and the Cubs management think that he might be able to improve from that level. Is it so absurd to think that he could?

[Sammy Sofa]

I guarantee you that nobody here has a problem with Colvin actually being the 4th/5th OF.

[Cubs Fan Dan]

I do not think this is worthy of its own thread, however what would be the consensus if the Cubs let Cashner start the season @ AAA as a starter?

[CubsWin]

I do not think this is worthy of its own thread, however what would be the consensus if the Cubs let Cashner start the season @ AAA as a starter?

I would prefer that to him starting the season in the pen.

[CubsWin]

I guarantee you that nobody here has a problem with Colvin actually being the 4th/5th OF.

Of course not, why should they?

 

I'm just saying that the rhetoric doesn't always match that feeling.

[Sammy Sofa]

I guarantee you that nobody here has a problem with Colvin actually being the 4th/5th OF.

Of course not, why should they?

 

I'm just saying that the rhetoric doesn't always match that feeling.

 

The vitriol towards Colvin stems from the organization seemingly insisting he's likely to be more than a 4th/5th OF.

[Splendid Splinter]

Just something else I don't think anyone talked about yet... What do you guys think of this? Cubs do have a top 10 pick this coming draft (i think 8th or 9th, can't remember), maybe they were ok with letting go both Archer/Lee knowing that they will replace one of them at worst with their pick (who may end up being better than Archer/Lee due to where they're picking- top 10)???? Just wondering if Hendry was thinking about that during the talks on the trade.... It'll be interesting to see who the Cubs will draft this year in the first round.

[Clem Fandango]

I guarantee you that nobody here has a problem with Colvin actually being the 4th/5th OF.

Of course not, why should they?

 

I'm just saying that the rhetoric doesn't always match that feeling.

 

The vitriol towards Colvin stems from the organization seemingly insisting he's likely to be more than a 4th/5th OF.

 

This. As a 4th OF fine... but if Hendry did in fact have a reluctance to trade him then the organization obviously views him as more than that which, as N&G put, is absurd.

 

Whether or not he was blown away by an offer and didn't sell is a moot point, the point is that he should absolutely listen to any and all offers on him, especially after this past season now that he has value. Before this past season Colvin's value was relatively weak because he was a prospect with injury concerns who showed no patience and had average power. This season, more or less, came out of nowhere and I personally am not buying it.

 

This seems like the same reason Hendry declared Fuld untouchable just because he made a really good catch and had a few good weeks at the plate. It's like he gets all giddy and protective over someone who provided some nice production that wasn't expected and immediately values them more than anything else. He needs to knock that [expletive] off. Colvin's value is at its highest right now, and if there's a GM out there dumb enough to trade for him while giving up something that the team could definitely use then he should be out there trying to find it

[chopsx9]

Colvin has his issues but he seems to rarely make weak contact, he may never be a high OBP or even a .300 hitter but with some improvement he could potentially hit 30 homers and put up a .260/.320/.500. Defintely a serviceable player if he is a #6 or #7 hitter in the lineup. Plus he is cheap.

 

For a right fielder, an .820 OPS isn't real good for a starter.

 

Fukudome's career high is .810 and his career average is .778.

 

AND -pure speculation on my part -

I'd bet if he'd gotten the same number of at bats as he had the previous 2 years, last years number would have been a whole lot closer to his career average.

[Guest]

Tyler Colvin was a 2-3 win RF last year, depending on how his performance scales with a full season's worth of PA's. He doesn't need to get on base like JD Drew or Nick Markakis to be as valuable as they are.

[Cubs Fan Dan]

Tyler Colvin was a 2-3 win RF last year, depending on how his performance scales with a full season's worth of PA's. He doesn't need to get on base like JD Drew or Nick Markakis to be as valuable as they are.

 

The biggest question is if Colvin's power is for real and if he can make enough contact to put up staring OF numbers.

[CUBZ99]

I guarantee you that nobody here has a problem with Colvin actually being the 4th/5th OF.

Of course not, why should they?

 

I'm just saying that the rhetoric doesn't always match that feeling.

 

The vitriol towards Colvin stems from the organization seemingly insisting he's likely to be more than a 4th/5th OF.

 

Why couldn't he be? He provided a .816 OPS at league minimum salary last year. Meanwhile, Fukudome provided a .809 OPS at $14MM. Colvin is exactly the type of player that we should be hoping the Cubs give a chance to. He is also exactly the type of player that we should be hoping succeeds. If Colvin can continue to provide a 800+ OPS in RF at a cheap price, that leaves more money for the organization to spend on other needs.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I wonder why you would have chosen OPS there ...

[Post Count Padder]

Yes, Colvin strikes out a lot. Yes he doesn't walk a whole lot. But he can still be a valuable player. Not a perennial all star, but a .260/.320/.480 line with 20-30 homers is possible. I know the hate probably comes from how much the front office loves him, but it's hard to see why some people flame him like he's Troy O'Leary.

[Guancous]

The Tyler Colvin hate has reached an absurd level around here.

 

It's not hate to value him lower than better players.

Correct. It's hate to be absolutely convinced that he sucks now and will suck in the future when he's still pretty young and has shown some potential.

 

I agree with those that value him lower than Brett Jackson and I am concerned about his ability to be selective at the plate and have a good OBP. But sometimes, they way he's talked about is rather absurd.

 

Horse [expletive]. The Cubs have been making very strong hints that they want him to be the starting RF if they could move Fukudome, and that's just absurd.

 

Hendry wouldn't be so eager to move Fukudome if he was making $5 million this year.

[CUBZ99]

I wonder why you would have chosen OPS there ...

 

What stat do you prefer?

[dew1679666265]

Fukudome's career high is .810 and his career average is .778.

 

True, and I wouldn't advocate for Kosuke to be the starting right fielder if he didn't provide very good defense in right. I'd like to see his overall offensive production rise, but he still brings more to the table than Colvin does.

 

Also keep in mind, Colvin's home run rate was very likely completely unsustainable this year. If that lowers, his SLG lowers and that OPS drops below .800 with only decent defense.

 

AND -pure speculation on my part -

I'd bet if he'd gotten the same number of at bats as he had the previous 2 years, last years number would have been a whole lot closer to his career average.

 

His OPS and wOBA have both gotten better each of the three years he's been in America. His PAs went up from year one to year two and then down from year two to year three. The biggest positive increase in his numbers came when his PAs increased from year one to year two. And the decreased PAs from 2009 to 2010 were mostly against righties, as he had 67 PAs against lefties in 2009 and 50 in 2010. So most of the decreased PAs were against the side he traditionally hits better.

 

There's really nothing to support your speculation that I can see.

[Sammy Sofa]

Yes, Colvin strikes out a lot. Yes he doesn't walk a whole lot. But he can still be a valuable player. Not a perennial all star, but a .260/.320/.480 line with 20-30 homers is possible. I know the hate probably comes from how much the front office loves him, but it's hard to see why some people flame him like he's Troy O'Leary.

 

Because projections like that aren't terribly realistic. It would be nice if he developed more, but as it stands pretty much all of his hype revolves around his unsustainable power numbers. Without that he's far too unremarkable to merit getting anything resembling regular starts.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I wonder why you would have chosen OPS there ...

 

What stat do you prefer?

 

One that doesn't cover-up Colvin's biggest offensive weakness, exaggerate his biggest strength, and do the reverse for Fukudome.

[dew1679666265]

This seems like the same reason Hendry declared Fuld untouchable just because he made a really good catch and had a few good weeks at the plate. It's like he gets all giddy and protective over someone who provided some nice production that wasn't expected and immediately values them more than anything else. He needs to knock that [expletive] off.

 

I think it's more that Hendry and Wilken just really like him. They took him because of his tools originally and moved him up the minors relatively quickly considering his injuries. Last season may have solidified Hendry's love for Colvin, but I think the scout in him has led him to love Colvin much longer than that.

 

 

Colvin's value is at its highest right now, and if there's a GM out there dumb enough to trade for him while giving up something that the team could definitely use then he should be out there trying to find it

 

I agree with this. We shouldn't deal him for just anything because he can be very valuable in the right role, but if there's a really good offer out there (which I don't know if there is) then Hendry definitely should make Colvin available in it.

[dew1679666265]

Colvin is exactly the type of player that we should be hoping the Cubs give a chance to. He is also exactly the type of player that we should be hoping succeeds.

 

I agree that we should give opportunities to cheap, homegrown talent, but Colvin isn't really the type of player we need to be focusing on developing. He doesn't have many on-base skills and relies heavily on power numbers (which have fluctuated even throughout the minors) to support his offense. That would cause his production to fluctuate quite a bit depending on BABIP and other factors.

[NCCubFan]

I do not think this is worthy of its own thread, however what would be the consensus if the Cubs let Cashner start the season @ AAA as a starter?

I'm all for it if the alternative is to be in the Cubs' bullpen.