Fire Lou Piniella

[dew1679666265]

why even spend money on managers? they can only cost you 1 win, right? might as well just hire a nobody and save some cash. they're irrelevant.

 

There are actually a significant number of "progressive" thinking people who think it doesn't really matter who the manager is because he really can't help you that much and can only marginally hurt you.

 

I agree with that general sentiment, but not to an extreme with it. If Lou were sending our young pitchers (Gorz, Wells) out there to throw 120+ pitches every outing or pitching Marmol 2-3 innings every day or so, I'd be in favor of letting him go ASAP. However, pretty much every manager out there has his own odd preferences and overly old school views so I don't know that the difference between Lou and almost any other manager is particularly significant. Since we're apparently not contending this year, I have no problem letting him run the course and then retire after the year.

[davearm2]

Lee and Ramirez have hit like crap all year, Zambrano has another meltdown and is on the restricted list, yet we should fire Lou because he has shorted Geovany Soto a few at bats? . I am guessing this "thought" process is just a bunch of fans looking for a scapegoat of some sort, blindly lashing out at a horrible team assembled by Jim Hendry.

Lou's not to blame for Lee and Ramirez hitting like crap all year, or Zambrano having another meltdown, but Jim Hendry is?

 

For a guy that chastises others for looking for a scapegoat of some sort, you sure seem to be looking for a scapegoat of some sort.

[flyseye]

Lee and Ramirez have hit like crap all year, Zambrano has another meltdown and is on the restricted list, yet we should fire Lou because he has shorted Geovany Soto a few at bats? . I am guessing this "thought" process is just a bunch of fans looking for a scapegoat of some sort, blindly lashing out at a horrible team assembled by Jim Hendry.

Lou's not to blame for Lee and Ramirez hitting like crap all year, or Zambrano having another meltdown, but Jim Hendry is?

 

For a guy that chastises others for looking for a scapegoat of some sort, you sure seem to be looking for a scapegoat of some sort.

 

So you dont think the bloated contracts and no trade clauses ala Jim Hendry have more to do with the failure of this years Cubs than the fact Hill is getting a few extra starts a month ?

 

What Dexter doesn't seem to grasp ,well one of the things, is that his Dusty analogy also made my point. Yes Dusty managed the 2006 Cubs, he is now managing the first place Reds. All you need is an average manager to succeed, I feel Lou qualifies as average.Firing him accomplishes very little, if anything ( based on who his replacement may be ).

 

For the last time, start a Aramis Ramirez sucks this year thread and you will be on the right track.This thread to me is pointless moaning and groaning about Lou, and I apologize for adding to it.

[Soul]

So then no managerial change midseason has ever helped a team.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I'm sure once we fire Piniella, we'll get a manager who follows stathead analysis in day-to-day lineup decisions.

[MSG T]

Lee and Ramirez have hit like crap all year, Zambrano has another meltdown and is on the restricted list, yet we should fire Lou because he has shorted Geovany Soto a few at bats? . I am guessing this "thought" process is just a bunch of fans looking for a scapegoat of some sort, blindly lashing out at a horrible team assembled by Jim Hendry.

Lou's not to blame for Lee and Ramirez hitting like crap all year, or Zambrano having another meltdown, but Jim Hendry is?

 

For a guy that chastises others for looking for a scapegoat of some sort, you sure seem to be looking for a scapegoat of some sort.

 

So you dont think the bloated contracts and no trade clauses ala Jim Hendry have more to do with the failure of this years Cubs than the fact Hill is getting a few extra starts a month ?

 

What Dexter doesn't seem to grasp ,well one of the things, is that his Dusty analogy also made my point. Yes Dusty managed the 2006 Cubs, he is now managing the first place Reds. All you need is an average manager to succeed, I feel Lou qualifies as average.Firing him accomplishes very little, if anything ( based on who his replacement may be ).

 

For the last time, start a Aramis Ramirez sucks this year thread and you will be on the right track.This thread to me is pointless moaning and groaning about Lou, and I apologize for adding to it.

 

Who is the person that continually put that guy that sucks in the lineup, in the 4-hole, every freaking day? Who is the guy that continually put Lee, who I agree has sucked, in the 3-hole every freaking day? The fact that Lee and ARam have sucked this year is on them. Just like Theriot sucking is on him, Hill sucking is on him, Z being an idiot is on him.

 

But, who is the guy responsible for continually putting them in the lineup, and in some cases, top of the order, every day? Putting Theriot, Lee and Ramirez at 2, 3 and 4 in the order, when they have all sucked ALL year is on Lou. There was no reason for those three to be hitting in the heart of the order for months. That is on Lou, not them.

 

I agree that building the team is on Hendry, and the performance of the individual players is on those players. But Lou could minimize the damage by putting the best hitters at the top and middle of the order. As good as Soriano and Soto have been all year, why are they constantly hitting 6th and 7th? Wouldn't it make sense to hit them 3-4 while they've been really good and Lee and ARam have sucked?

 

 

This team may not have been in 1st place, regardless of the lineup construction. However, Lou has done everything in his power to maximize the suck. He has cost them well over 1 game. I'd put it at three or four, just looking at his idiotic use of the bullpen. Given the number of low scoring, close games they've lost, I'd bet there's that many more when you consider the Lee/Ramirez vs Soriano/Soto stupidity, as well as other aspects he's been horrible at.

[Guest]

Soto aside, what are the big complaints with Lou? Keeping Ramirez/Lee in the lineup, and using the wrong bullpen guys sometimes? If anything, I like that Lou is slower to react with that stuff, especially with guys like Ramirez and Lee who have been producing for the better part of a decade. Yeah, I would've liked him to be quicker to give up on Grabow when it was clear he doesn't have it, but considering how much people get on to Lou for being ADD, I can appreciate a more macro view in some of these instances.

 

And to flyseye's point, the Cubs are terrible this year. Lou is not helping, but let's not pretend that he's done irreparable damage to the team's playoff hopes. Lee, Ramirez, and Zambrano have done that. The perfect manager isn't going to have the Cubs above .500 right now, and it's why it seems like the level of vitriol aimed at Lou is a bit misplaced. I was as gung ho as anybody about our chances this year, but with Lee and Ramirez went our hopes. That's not Lou's fault, and firing him isn't going to make much of a difference for the rest of this year(unlike Dusty, who willfully wrecks a pitcher's arm, and refuses to play promising young players over terrible alternatives). If you want an outlet for venting, it's Hendry. If you want someone's head, it's Hendry's. And really, that's the only move that can be made in the front office that makes sense, but my guess is that the Ricketts' made some sort of good faith pledge to give their new GM at least a year under their watch, so a lack of that move isn't exactly worthy of anger either.

[SouthSideRyan]

Cashner in the major league bullpen is a big complaint of mine, but I don't know who to place the blame on for that. Actually, the entire process of deciding who's in the big league bullpen has been effed up all year.

[dew1679666265]

So you dont think the bloated contracts and no trade clauses ala Jim Hendry have more to do with the failure of this years Cubs than the fact Hill is getting a few extra starts a month ?

 

How have no-trade clauses hurt us this year? If anything, we had a little more payroll room because players accepted a bit less money with the NTC included.

 

The NTC thing is really overblown.

[dew1679666265]

Cashner in the major league bullpen is a big complaint of mine, but I don't know who to place the blame on for that. Actually, the entire process of deciding who's in the big league bullpen has been effed up all year.

 

I'm not crazy about it, but at least Cashner is pitching. He'd be getting more benefit pitching in the AAA rotation, but he is getting time in the ML bullpen at least. I'd have more of a problem with it if he was the 6th inning mop-up guy or something.

[dew1679666265]

Soto aside, what are the big complaints with Lou? Keeping Ramirez/Lee in the lineup, and using the wrong bullpen guys sometimes? If anything, I like that Lou is slower to react with that stuff, especially with guys like Ramirez and Lee who have been producing for the better part of a decade. Yeah, I would've liked him to be quicker to give up on Grabow when it was clear he doesn't have it, but considering how much people get on to Lou for being ADD, I can appreciate a more macro view in some of these instances.

 

And to flyseye's point, the Cubs are terrible this year. Lou is not helping, but let's not pretend that he's done irreparable damage to the team's playoff hopes. Lee, Ramirez, and Zambrano have done that. The perfect manager isn't going to have the Cubs above .500 right now, and it's why it seems like the level of vitriol aimed at Lou is a bit misplaced. I was as gung ho as anybody about our chances this year, but with Lee and Ramirez went our hopes. That's not Lou's fault, and firing him isn't going to make much of a difference for the rest of this year(unlike Dusty, who willfully wrecks a pitcher's arm, and refuses to play promising young players over terrible alternatives). If you want an outlet for venting, it's Hendry. If you want someone's head, it's Hendry's. And really, that's the only move that can be made in the front office that makes sense, but my guess is that the Ricketts' made some sort of good faith pledge to give their new GM at least a year under their watch, so a lack of that move isn't exactly worthy of anger either.

 

The Soto/Hill thing is pretty wild and Theriot (and even Castro, honestly) hitting at the top of the order is pretty bad. I'd have dropped Lee and Ramirez at this point, but I can understand why Lou hasn't yet. I'm not crazy about his usage of Marshall either. I'd like to see him in more high leverage situations, but he has been about 50/50 at least (high leverage vs low leverage).

 

As I said earlier, though, I don't think those decisions have hurt us that much overall.

[Sammy Sofa]

So then no managerial change midseason has ever helped a team.

 

Usually they don't.

[jersey cubs fan]

Lou isn't the big problem, but he is a problem, or at the very least, not part of the solution. I don't blame him at all for Lee and Ramirez being in the middle of the lineup, but I blame him for his obsession with Theriot and Hill, really screwed up bullpen management (which includes letting some starters go to long in an effort to avoid the bullpen). I haven't liked his crying about a lack of left handed hitting, which set Hendry off on another misguided shopping spree, and it doesn't bode well for the job he's done that the clubhouse has been a huge story the past few years.

[17 Seconds]

Lee and Ramirez have hit like crap all year, Zambrano has another meltdown and is on the restricted list, yet we should fire Lou because he has shorted Geovany Soto a few at bats? . I am guessing this "thought" process is just a bunch of fans looking for a scapegoat of some sort, blindly lashing out at a horrible team assembled by Jim Hendry.

Lou's not to blame for Lee and Ramirez hitting like crap all year, or Zambrano having another meltdown, but Jim Hendry is?

 

For a guy that chastises others for looking for a scapegoat of some sort, you sure seem to be looking for a scapegoat of some sort.

 

What Dexter doesn't seem to grasp ,well one of the things, is that his Dusty analogy also made my point.

 

It's not my fault that you didn't understand what I was saying.

 

Yes, team's can win in spite of bad managing, and teams can fail in spite of good managing. SO that means it doesn't matter if you have a crappy manager? No.

 

If the Reds had a decent manager, they'd probably be doing even better this season.

 

It seems like your whole point is "whatever, we're gonna suck anyways so there's no point of blaming Lou".

 

I think Lou has become a very bad manager, period. It's as simple as that. Why give a bad manager a free pass just because the team sucks anyways? So he can hurt us when we actually do have a good team?

Edited July 1, 2010 by 17 Seconds

[Sammy Sofa]

Lou isn't the big problem, but he is a problem, or at the very least, not part of the solution. I don't blame him at all for Lee and Ramirez being in the middle of the lineup, but I blame him for his obsession with Theriot and Hill, really screwed up bullpen management (which includes letting some starters go to long in an effort to avoid the bullpen). I haven't liked his crying about a lack of left handed hitting, which set Hendry off on another misguided shopping spree, and it doesn't bode well for the job he's done that the clubhouse has been a huge story the past few years.

 

Yeah, this. Hendry is too easily led around by whatever halfassed theory the manager has to fix the team. He did the same thing with Dusty, too.

[Careless]

How have no-trade clauses hurt us this year? If anything, we had a little more payroll room because players accepted a bit less money with the NTC included.

 

The NTC thing is really overblown.

I'd really like to see an attempt to quantify the value of NTC to players

[Benchwarmer]

This has gone far enough. Certainly he has seen enough to know what he hasn't got. Do we have to endure another 3 months and then he takes action? Cripes, Koyie Hill is the spokesman for this team and I can't stand to see him talking with a "0-3, 2 K's" graphic underneath. Jeez..Fire Hendry and Lou already. Back up the truck and unload Lee, Theriot(how about to the RedSox?), ARAM(he will probably opt out at year's end anyway)..blah..blah..you all know who needs to go.

 

I'm just surprised that Tom hasn't come out of hiding and put the hammer down.

[Prizefight]

ARAM(he will probably opt out at year's end anyway)

 

Hilariously wrong.

[Sammy Sofa]

Hi, J.R..

[Banedon]

All the people you want to unload have no trade clauses.

 

Also, I'm merging this with the Piniella thread.

[davearm2]

Lee and Ramirez have hit like crap all year, Zambrano has another meltdown and is on the restricted list, yet we should fire Lou because he has shorted Geovany Soto a few at bats? . I am guessing this "thought" process is just a bunch of fans looking for a scapegoat of some sort, blindly lashing out at a horrible team assembled by Jim Hendry.

Lou's not to blame for Lee and Ramirez hitting like crap all year, or Zambrano having another meltdown, but Jim Hendry is?

 

For a guy that chastises others for looking for a scapegoat of some sort, you sure seem to be looking for a scapegoat of some sort.

 

So you dont think the bloated contracts and no trade clauses ala Jim Hendry have more to do with the failure of this years Cubs than the fact Hill is getting a few extra starts a month ?

I'd rank the reasons for the failure of this year's Cubs as follows:

1) the under-performance of the players on the roster (Lee Ramirez Zambrano Grabow etc.)

2) the way the roster has been managed (Lou -- lineups, bullpen management, etc.)

3) the way the roster has been assembled (Hendry -- contracts, NTCs etc.)

 

So it's nonsensical for you to absolve Lou because it's not his fault that the players aren't producing, but then turn around and blame Hendry. Hendry has even less to do with that.

 

Your mini-rant about finding a scapegoat just made it even more amusingly hypocritical.

[pccubfan]

I would advocate firing Lou now and replacing him with Sandberg. That way maybe the organization would see enough in the remainder of the year to get over their unexplainable desire to have Ryne manage the Cubs. That, along with a top draft pick, would offset some of the sting of what is happening on the field this year.

[Benchwarmer]

ARAM(he will probably opt out at year's end anyway)

 

Hilariously wrong.

 

Check your facts. ARAM's contract says he can walk at the end of 2010.

 

Why would he want to stay here at all?

[dew1679666265]

How have no-trade clauses hurt us this year? If anything, we had a little more payroll room because players accepted a bit less money with the NTC included.

 

The NTC thing is really overblown.

I'd really like to see an attempt to quantify the value of NTC to players

 

It'd be interesting to see. I have no idea what the effect on the money would be, but I would have to think there'd be somewhat less money offered because of the NTC.

 

Otherwise, I see no reason to include the NTC (unless the player simply refuses to sign without one).

[dew1679666265]

ARAM(he will probably opt out at year's end anyway)

 

Hilariously wrong.

 

Check your facts. ARAM's contract says he can walk at the end of 2010.

 

Why would he want to stay here at all?

 

Because after the season he's had so far he's extremely unlikely to get a 2/30 deal from anybody. He'd be looking at probably close to $10 mil less on any deal he signed if he closes out the season anywhere close to his current numbers.