Ramirez Injury Thread

[dew1679666265]

How many can't miss prospects have the Cubs held on to instead of trading that have turned out to be complete busts? I'll take a proven major league player over a low level prospect any day of the week. Especially when the major league player is a dominant pitcher.

 

Hendry has actually generally been pretty good at identifying which prospects will bust and which won't. Offhand, the only recent "can't miss" prospects I recall us hanging onto and them busting were Rich Hill and Pie. Cedeno did as well, but he wasn't nearly as highly regarded as the former two.

 

Hendry has dealt guys like Justin Jones, Bobby Hill, Matt Bruback and others who haven't panned out.

[David]

Except Rich Hill busted *after* panning out, so it's a little different. He went Ankiel/Wohlers on us.

 

Pie was never really given a chance and it'll be interesting to see how this season turns out for him if he can get consistent at bats for the whole season. We'll see if his history of adjusting to the different levels after struggling badly early plays out in Baltimore.

[dew1679666265]

Except Rich Hill busted *after* panning out, so it's a little different. He went Ankiel/Wohlers on us.

 

Pie was never really given a chance and it'll be interesting to see how this season turns out for him if he can get consistent at bats for the whole season. We'll see if his history of adjusting to the different levels after struggling badly early plays out in Baltimore.

 

True, and I'm not trying to be critical of Hill and Pie here. Just mentioning them as guys that (so far) didn't reach expectations, but that Hendry did not trade beforehand.

[David]

Yea, I didn't mean to sound argumentative.

[dew1679666265]

Yea, I didn't mean to sound argumentative.

 

You didn't. I just wasn't sure what direction that was going in. :D

[Keener98]

How many can't miss prospects have the Cubs held on to instead of trading that have turned out to be complete busts? I'll take a proven major league player over a low level prospect any day of the week. Especially when the major league player is a dominant pitcher.

 

 

How many 19 year old position prospects, playing in class A for the Cubs, have put up the type of numbers Vitters is putting up?

[Old Style]

How many can't miss prospects have the Cubs held on to instead of trading that have turned out to be complete busts? I'll take a proven major league player over a low level prospect any day of the week. Especially when the major league player is a dominant pitcher.

 

How many 19 year old position prospects, playing in class A for the Cubs, have put up the type of numbers Vitters is putting up?

I'm more concerned with bettering our chances of winning the World Series this year than having a good third baseman 2-3 years from now. I realize it's a risk, but to me it's a smart risk. It's not like we're getting Ernie Broglio in return.

[dew1679666265]

How many can't miss prospects have the Cubs held on to instead of trading that have turned out to be complete busts? I'll take a proven major league player over a low level prospect any day of the week. Especially when the major league player is a dominant pitcher.

 

How many 19 year old position prospects, playing in class A for the Cubs, have put up the type of numbers Vitters is putting up?

I'm more concerned with bettering our chances of winning the World Series this year than having a good third baseman 2-3 years from now. I realize it's a risk, but to me it's a smart risk. It's not like we're getting Ernie Broglio in return.

 

That's the debate I'm stuck in right now. Do I want the potential franchise third baseman for the next 10 or so years or the stud starting pitcher who - paired with Z, Lilly and Harden - gives us an insanely good starting playoff rotation.

 

It's tough, to say the least. If I knew I had the Aramis of old for a couple more years or so, it helps the decision, but with the questions surrounding Aramis things have gotten tougher.

[twothousandfive]

Peavy, if I remember it right, has a contract in place (though the cost escalates, and he could demand a trade to force even more money), so he clearly is more than a rental. But, when Peavy was first mentioned, much of the debate (here, at least) was about letting Dempster go (thus saving that payroll hit), sliding Peavy into his slot in the rotation, and getting picks. That made giving up Vitters or really any prospect worth considering. The extra picks could be expected to get a guy who could fill Vitters spot on the prospect list. It's a lot tougher mid-season.

 

Has anyone seen info on how the injury may continue to affect Ramirez? Is third base a big risk on re-injuring it? If he were to simply DH, is his shoulder a problem? Could he be the Cubs first basemen after the 2010 season? If so, there's even more incentive to keep Vitters.

 

Many teams are in this boat, but I think the Cubs best shot for an upgrade is in the bullpen. Peavy would be a great addition, but unless he is a net plus -- pushing Marshall and/or Wells to the pen (and assuming they can do well in the pen) I'd think the Cubs should keep Vitters. if he is the key to keeping Marshall, put him in a deal for Peavy.

[mul21]

I'm not optimistic on how Rammy's shoulder is going to respond, at least this season. After seeing how much Rolen struggled when he hurt his left shoulder, plus knowing how unstable the shoulder joint is from personal experience, I'm inclined to keep Vitters around because he's more likely to be needed sooner rather than later. I don't think the shoulder will be an ongoing problem in terms of playing 3rd base, but as violent as his swing can be and all the torque that puts on the front shoulder when you swing, that's what really concerns me.

 

Therefore, (I just wanted to sound official and important there) if it takes Vitters to get Peavy, I say no way. If you can have a healthy Z, Harden, Lilly, and Demp going into the playoffs, there's plenty of pitching there if they can actually score a run here or there.

[Outshined_One]

Would anyone be more reluctant to trade Vitters in, say, a Jake Peavy (or any other) deal given the possibility that this injury might greatly accelerate whatever timetable we had on Aramis's decline?

 

Depends on the deal. I'd trade Vitters for Peavy straight up, but I'd be enormously reluctant to do something like Vitters/Thomas/Jackson/Marshall for Peavy.

 

I really like Vitters, but I don't think he's untradeable.

[jersey cubs fan]

If this injury is going to have a prolonged effect, keeping Vitters around doesn't help much. Presumably Ramirez will be a fraction of the player he's capable of being if he comes back this year. But Vitters isn't going to change that. Vitters isn't going to be ready for 2010 either. So if Aramis needs to be replaced before 2011/12, they will need somebody other than Vitters to do it. If he returns from injury and is still good, then they won't need Vitters for a few years anyway.

[mul21]

If this injury is going to have a prolonged effect, keeping Vitters around doesn't help much. Presumably Ramirez will be a fraction of the player he's capable of being if he comes back this year. But Vitters isn't going to change that. Vitters isn't going to be ready for 2010 either. So if Aramis needs to be replaced before 2011/12, they will need somebody other than Vitters to do it. If he returns from injury and is still good, then they won't need Vitters for a few years anyway.

 

Oh, I agree completely. But it's more palatable to me to find a stop gap, adequate guy to play 3rd for a year or two and have Vitters waiting in the wings than to trade him for Peavy and have nothing in the system as a replacement for Ramirez if he doesn't come back as the player he's been.

 

You're looking at what, 2009 in Low A and High A, 2010 in AA, 2011 in AAA and a 2012 arrival in Chicago if things go pretty much on a normal non-aggressive schedule?

[Little Slide Rooter]

The good thing about this season is that there are plenty of stop gaps available who have been mentioned earlier in this thread. If Baltimore and Colorodo are out of it by July, which they should be Huff and Atkins will be available. Also Wiggington and Mora if we get desperate. Hank Blalock could be available for the right price even if the Rangers are in it. Russ Branyan is having a monster season with Seattle, but I really cant see that lasting too long. Hes the epitomy of a sell high candidate for them.

[TruffleShuffle]

If this injury is going to have a prolonged effect, keeping Vitters around doesn't help much. Presumably Ramirez will be a fraction of the player he's capable of being if he comes back this year. But Vitters isn't going to change that. Vitters isn't going to be ready for 2010 either. So if Aramis needs to be replaced before 2011/12, they will need somebody other than Vitters to do it. If he returns from injury and is still good, then they won't need Vitters for a few years anyway.

 

the other possibility is that ramirez stays good into his mid 30s; the cubs have a need at 1B and shift ramirez to 1B as he gets older/slower and put vitters at 3B.

[Little Slide Rooter]

If this injury is going to have a prolonged effect, keeping Vitters around doesn't help much. Presumably Ramirez will be a fraction of the player he's capable of being if he comes back this year. But Vitters isn't going to change that. Vitters isn't going to be ready for 2010 either. So if Aramis needs to be replaced before 2011/12, they will need somebody other than Vitters to do it. If he returns from injury and is still good, then they won't need Vitters for a few years anyway.

 

the other possibility is that ramirez stays good into his mid 30s; the cubs have a need at 1B and shift ramirez to 1B as he gets older/slower and put vitters at 3B.

 

Micah Hoffpauir doesnt like you very much right now.

[Old Style]

I am intrigued with the thought of Aramis moving to 1B.

[TruffleShuffle]

If this injury is going to have a prolonged effect, keeping Vitters around doesn't help much. Presumably Ramirez will be a fraction of the player he's capable of being if he comes back this year. But Vitters isn't going to change that. Vitters isn't going to be ready for 2010 either. So if Aramis needs to be replaced before 2011/12, they will need somebody other than Vitters to do it. If he returns from injury and is still good, then they won't need Vitters for a few years anyway.

 

the other possibility is that ramirez stays good into his mid 30s; the cubs have a need at 1B and shift ramirez to 1B as he gets older/slower and put vitters at 3B.

 

Micah Hoffpauir doesnt like you very much right now.

 

that's nice, micah hoffpauir is 29 years old and guys who peak late tend to drop off pretty early. counting on him as a long-term solution at 1B would be dumb.

[jersey cubs fan]

If this injury is going to have a prolonged effect, keeping Vitters around doesn't help much. Presumably Ramirez will be a fraction of the player he's capable of being if he comes back this year. But Vitters isn't going to change that. Vitters isn't going to be ready for 2010 either. So if Aramis needs to be replaced before 2011/12, they will need somebody other than Vitters to do it. If he returns from injury and is still good, then they won't need Vitters for a few years anyway.

 

the other possibility is that ramirez stays good into his mid 30s; the cubs have a need at 1B and shift ramirez to 1B as he gets older/slower and put vitters at 3B.

 

Yeah, well I'm not suggesting there will never be a use for Vitters on this team. I'm only saying that Ramirez's injury should not determine whether or not Vitters is traded.

[JGalt73]

Update from Will Carroll:

 

Yesterday I asked for a suggestion of an acronym for that part of the rehab when there's really no news to report. My favorite suggestion was "TRIP," for "Textbook Rehab In Progress." That's pretty much where Ramirez is now, doing range-of-motion exercises with his damaged shoulder. He talked to reporters for the first time and gave some indication of where he is. The shoulder is still painful, but there was no mention of surgery. Ramirez says that he won't have a firm idea of where he is until he gets back to baseball activities, which he thought would be by mid-June. While there's no real timeline for his return, the lack of surgical possibilities is interesting. Was there less damage than expected inside the shoulder, or are they just putting it off until the offseason? This one will bear watching throughout the rehab to see if they put any extra emphasis on strengthening and stabilizing the joint.

[Laura]

Yesterday I asked for a suggestion of an acronym for that part of the rehab when there's really no news to report. My favorite suggestion was "TRIP," for "Textbook Rehab In Progress." That's pretty much where Ramirez is now, doing range-of-motion exercises with his damaged shoulder. He talked to reporters for the first time and gave some indication of where he is. The shoulder is still painful, but there was no mention of surgery. Ramirez says that he won't have a firm idea of where he is until he gets back to baseball activities, which he thought would be by mid-June. While there's no real timeline for his return, the lack of surgical possibilities is interesting. Was there less damage than expected inside the shoulder, or are they just putting it off until the offseason? This one will bear watching throughout the rehab to see if they put any extra emphasis on strengthening and stabilizing the joint.

 

That would be some welcome good news.

[BigSlick]

If he could come back by mid-June that would be amazing

 

I'm not expecting him any time before July though

[Sammy Sofa]

If he could come back by mid-June that would be amazing

 

I'm not expecting him any time before July though

 

They're talking about him only being able to finally start basic rehabbing baseball-wise by mid-June, not actually being ready to play.

 

I'm not expecting him back until August.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Sammy Sofa

[BigSlick]

If he could come back by mid-June that would be amazing

 

I'm not expecting him any time before July though

 

They're talking about him only being to finally start basic rehabbing baseball-wise by mid-June, not actually being ready to play.

 

I'm not expecting him back until August.

Lordy..

 

maybe we should make a trade after all this is pretty bad

[Vanilla Ice]

Get better soon :(