Pie traded to Baltimore for Olson and minor leaguer

[Tyrant]

Lou had a problem with in Pie ST b/c he wanted to fit him into the Juan Pierre mode-slap hit-bunter-speed guy instead of letting Pie be who he is.

 

A low-contact center fielder with no plate discipline?

[17 Seconds]

thank you SSR, i feel like i'm taking crazy pills

 

Felix proved beyond a shadow of a doubt with his first 15 ABs or whatever that he'd never be able to hit, but Edmonds 3 fer 97 start proved that he'd be a surefire source of production

 

asinine

 

Who is arguing that he proved he'd never be able to hit? or that he won't improve?

 

 

Tyrant kind of did.... for 2008 at least-

 

Or, it was obvious that Pie wasn't going to be able to contribute offensively in 2008, so they looked elsewhere for production.

[CubinNY]

Lou had a problem with in Pie ST b/c he wanted to fit him into the Juan Pierre mode-slap hit-bunter-speed guy instead of letting Pie be who he is.

 

A low-contact center fielder with no plate discipline?

That remains to be seen but his minor league numbers indicate that you are probably more wrong that right.

[17 Seconds]

Lou had a problem with in Pie ST b/c he wanted to fit him into the Juan Pierre mode-slap hit-bunter-speed guy instead of letting Pie be who he is.

 

A low-contact center fielder with no plate discipline?

 

To be fair, he could still be decent despite that. I mean, .280/.325/.425 or something like that would have been good enough for a cf with really good defense. I'm not saying he would have done that, but he certainly could have

[17 Seconds]

Lou had a problem with in Pie ST b/c he wanted to fit him into the Juan Pierre mode-slap hit-bunter-speed guy instead of letting Pie be who he is.

 

A low-contact center fielder with no plate discipline?

That remains to be seen but his minor league numbers indicate that you are probably more wrong that right.

 

Not really. A lot of those type hitters hit well in the minors but then get exposed in the majors

[17 Seconds]

Edmonds would probably have still been available a couple weeks later. Piniella started Johnson against some very bleh RH pitchers when he could have put Pie in a position to succeed. The fact that he gave him so few PAs before banishing him to the doghouse makes no baseball sense.

 

Exactly. He just never gave him a chance. And so....what....he could get Reed Johnson more at-bats against RHP? Come on.

[CubinNY]

Lou had a problem with in Pie ST b/c he wanted to fit him into the Juan Pierre mode-slap hit-bunter-speed guy instead of letting Pie be who he is.

 

A low-contact center fielder with no plate discipline?

That remains to be seen but his minor league numbers indicate that you are probably more wrong that right.

 

Not really. A lot of those type hitters hit well in the minors but then get exposed in the majors

Not really what? His IsoD is .054 that's not terrible and with a BA of .299 he's not a low contact hitter either.

[SouthSideRyan]

could our season have possibly changed for the worse if Edmonds was never signed and Pie got a full chance to succeed? would we have won negative playoff games or had a 9 game swing to miss the playoffs?

 

I don't think the Cubs' flame-out in October should be used to criticize a decision that was made in April. That's a weird way to look at things.

 

Pie was completely overmatched at the beginning of the year. He could barely make contact with the baseball; even a mediocre breaking ball was an adventure for him. Once Lou saw that -- whether it was in 40 at bats or 400 -- he needed to pull the plug.

 

I think you're failing to draw a distinction between giving a player a chance to who looks like he could contribute, and just giving a guy a chance regardless of how he looked. Pie didn't show anything in the majors last year that indicated he should be given more at bats.

 

I've said it before: Lou has his faults, but judging talent isn't one of them. He does a pretty good job of slotting in the right guys to play.

 

Much was made of the private instruction Lou was giving to Pie while he rotted on the bench for those 2 weeks or so. Pie got a few ABs here and there(still far less than Reed Johnson) following the private instruction and looked much better. Then he was sent to AAA.

[17 Seconds]

Lou had a problem with in Pie ST b/c he wanted to fit him into the Juan Pierre mode-slap hit-bunter-speed guy instead of letting Pie be who he is.

 

A low-contact center fielder with no plate discipline?

That remains to be seen but his minor league numbers indicate that you are probably more wrong that right.

 

Not really. A lot of those type hitters hit well in the minors but then get exposed in the majors

Not really what? His IsoD is .054 that's not terrible and with a BA of .299 he's not a low contact hitter either.

 

hitting for a good average means you're a good contact hitter?

[CubinNY]

Lou had a problem with in Pie ST b/c he wanted to fit him into the Juan Pierre mode-slap hit-bunter-speed guy instead of letting Pie be who he is.

 

A low-contact center fielder with no plate discipline?

That remains to be seen but his minor league numbers indicate that you are probably more wrong that right.

 

Not really. A lot of those type hitters hit well in the minors but then get exposed in the majors

Not really what? His IsoD is .054 that's not terrible and with a BA of .299 he's not a low contact hitter either.

 

hitting for a good average means you're a good contact hitter?

it doesn't mean you are a low contact hitter. He's got a a BABIP that's well with in average ranges too. All and all it kind of says that Pie is not either of those things.

 

Adam Dunn is a low contact hitter. Dave Kingman was a low contact hitter. Mark Bellhorne was a low contact hitter.

[17 Seconds]

Lou had a problem with in Pie ST b/c he wanted to fit him into the Juan Pierre mode-slap hit-bunter-speed guy instead of letting Pie be who he is.

 

A low-contact center fielder with no plate discipline?

That remains to be seen but his minor league numbers indicate that you are probably more wrong that right.

 

Not really. A lot of those type hitters hit well in the minors but then get exposed in the majors

Not really what? His IsoD is .054 that's not terrible and with a BA of .299 he's not a low contact hitter either.

 

hitting for a good average means you're a good contact hitter?

it doesn't mean you are a low contact hitter. He's got a a BABIP that's well with in average ranges too. All and all it kind of says that Pie is not either of those things.

 

Adam Dunn is a low contact hitter. Dave Kingman was a low contact hitter. Mark Bellhorne was a low contact hitter.

 

i don't know why you're talking about batting average and babip. if you strike out a lot, you're a low contact hitter. felix pie strikes out a lot.

 

in 2006 ryan howard struck out 181 times but hit .313. low contact hitter or not?

[CubinNY]

Lou had a problem with in Pie ST b/c he wanted to fit him into the Juan Pierre mode-slap hit-bunter-speed guy instead of letting Pie be who he is.

 

A low-contact center fielder with no plate discipline?

That remains to be seen but his minor league numbers indicate that you are probably more wrong that right.

 

Not really. A lot of those type hitters hit well in the minors but then get exposed in the majors

Not really what? His IsoD is .054 that's not terrible and with a BA of .299 he's not a low contact hitter either.

 

hitting for a good average means you're a good contact hitter?

it doesn't mean you are a low contact hitter. He's got a a BABIP that's well with in average ranges too. All and all it kind of says that Pie is not either of those things.

 

Adam Dunn is a low contact hitter. Dave Kingman was a low contact hitter. Mark Bellhorne was a low contact hitter.

 

i don't know why you're talking about batting average and babip. if you strike out a lot, you're a low contact hitter. felix pie strikes out a lot.

 

in 2006 ryan howard struck out 181 times but hit .313. low contact hitter or not?

 

Pie's ks in the minors are not that high.

[17 Seconds]

Lou had a problem with in Pie ST b/c he wanted to fit him into the Juan Pierre mode-slap hit-bunter-speed guy instead of letting Pie be who he is.

 

A low-contact center fielder with no plate discipline?

That remains to be seen but his minor league numbers indicate that you are probably more wrong that right.

 

Not really. A lot of those type hitters hit well in the minors but then get exposed in the majors

Not really what? His IsoD is .054 that's not terrible and with a BA of .299 he's not a low contact hitter either.

 

hitting for a good average means you're a good contact hitter?

it doesn't mean you are a low contact hitter. He's got a a BABIP that's well with in average ranges too. All and all it kind of says that Pie is not either of those things.

 

Adam Dunn is a low contact hitter. Dave Kingman was a low contact hitter. Mark Bellhorne was a low contact hitter.

 

i don't know why you're talking about batting average and babip. if you strike out a lot, you're a low contact hitter. felix pie strikes out a lot.

 

in 2006 ryan howard struck out 181 times but hit .313. low contact hitter or not?

 

Pie's ks are not that high.

 

they don't have to be. that wasn't the point. that was just an example of how batting average doesn't show whether or not you make a lot of contact. lots of guys hit for good average and strike out a lot and lots of guys hits for poor average and don't strike out.

 

pie strikes out a lot. whether or not he hits for high average doesn't change that. just because he is a low contact hitter doesn't mean he can't still be successful

[Abe Frohman]

Well - Dunn, Kingman, Bellhorn, and Howard all strike out a lot - but don't make nearly as many outs as a guy without the ability to draw a walk. When I say draw a walk, I think we should focus the credit on the hitter who beats the pitcher. Getting on base is a skill, and lots of guys who fan a lot (add Jim Thome, Sammy Sosa, and countless others) made less outs despite the high strikeout rate, because they could draw a walk.

[sneakypower]

i don't know why you're talking about batting average and babip. if you strike out a lot, you're a low contact hitter. felix pie strikes out a lot.

he does?

[CubinNY]

Lou had a problem with in Pie ST b/c he wanted to fit him into the Juan Pierre mode-slap hit-bunter-speed guy instead of letting Pie be who he is.

 

A low-contact center fielder with no plate discipline?

That remains to be seen but his minor league numbers indicate that you are probably more wrong that right.

 

Not really. A lot of those type hitters hit well in the minors but then get exposed in the majors

Not really what? His IsoD is .054 that's not terrible and with a BA of .299 he's not a low contact hitter either.

 

hitting for a good average means you're a good contact hitter?

it doesn't mean you are a low contact hitter. He's got a a BABIP that's well with in average ranges too. All and all it kind of says that Pie is not either of those things.

 

Adam Dunn is a low contact hitter. Dave Kingman was a low contact hitter. Mark Bellhorne was a low contact hitter.

 

i don't know why you're talking about batting average and babip. if you strike out a lot, you're a low contact hitter. felix pie strikes out a lot.

 

in 2006 ryan howard struck out 181 times but hit .313. low contact hitter or not?

 

Pie's ks are not that high.

 

they don't have to be. that wasn't the point. that was just an example of how batting average doesn't show whether or not you make a lot of contact. lots of guys hit for good average and strike out a lot and lots of guys hits for poor average and don't strike out.

 

pie strikes out a lot. whether or not he hits for high average doesn't change that. just because he is a low contact hitter doesn't mean he can't still be successful

over his minor league career Pie has k'd .21%. The average is right around 20. That's neither high nor low. The fact that he has a decent batting average also provides more evidence that you and Tyrant are wrong.

[jersey cubs fan]

i don't know why you're talking about batting average and babip. if you strike out a lot, you're a low contact hitter. felix pie strikes out a lot.

he does?

 

about as frequently as Corey Patterson, no?

[sneakypower]

over his minor league career Pie has k'd .21%. The average is right around 20. That's neither high nor low. The fact that he has a decent batting average also provides more evidence that you and Tyrant are wrong.

also, his K rate was on a consistent downward slope as he progressed throughout the minors.

 

oh and his slugging improved at the same time.

Edited January 20, 2009 by sneakypower

[CubinNY]

i don't know why you're talking about batting average and babip. if you strike out a lot, you're a low contact hitter. felix pie strikes out a lot.

he does?

 

about as frequently as Corey Patterson, no?

Over the course of their minor league seasons, yes. But Pie also wasn't rushed to the majors.

[sneakypower]

the Patterson comparisons are insulting to anybody with use of their brains

 

compare both players performance at the same age, at the same levels and you've got really no similarities

[jersey cubs fan]

the Patterson comparisons are insulting to anybody with use of their brains

 

compare both players performance at the same age, at the same levels and you've got really no similarities

 

Excuse me? Get over yourself. I don't know the numbers, I just remember at the time that he came up Pie had a fairly similar K rate to Patterson. It's on the higher end, but it's not obscenely high.

[17 Seconds]

Lou had a problem with in Pie ST b/c he wanted to fit him into the Juan Pierre mode-slap hit-bunter-speed guy instead of letting Pie be who he is.

 

A low-contact center fielder with no plate discipline?

That remains to be seen but his minor league numbers indicate that you are probably more wrong that right.

 

Not really. A lot of those type hitters hit well in the minors but then get exposed in the majors

Not really what? His IsoD is .054 that's not terrible and with a BA of .299 he's not a low contact hitter either.

 

hitting for a good average means you're a good contact hitter?

it doesn't mean you are a low contact hitter. He's got a a BABIP that's well with in average ranges too. All and all it kind of says that Pie is not either of those things.

 

Adam Dunn is a low contact hitter. Dave Kingman was a low contact hitter. Mark Bellhorne was a low contact hitter.

 

i don't know why you're talking about batting average and babip. if you strike out a lot, you're a low contact hitter. felix pie strikes out a lot.

 

in 2006 ryan howard struck out 181 times but hit .313. low contact hitter or not?

 

Pie's ks are not that high.

 

they don't have to be. that wasn't the point. that was just an example of how batting average doesn't show whether or not you make a lot of contact. lots of guys hit for good average and strike out a lot and lots of guys hits for poor average and don't strike out.

 

pie strikes out a lot. whether or not he hits for high average doesn't change that. just because he is a low contact hitter doesn't mean he can't still be successful

over his minor league career Pie has k'd .21%. The average is right around 20. That's neither high nor low. The fact that he has a decent batting average also provides more evidence that you and Tyrant are wrong.

 

the key here is we're talking about minor league numbers, not major league numbers. players with strikeout totals like pie's in the minors generally see those numbers increase in the majors, which is what we've seen with pie so far in his limited time in the majors. i don't really see how you can honestly try to argue he's not a low contact guy.

 

i also don't see why you keep talking about batting average. we've already established that having a good average doesn't in any way mean that you are a good contact hitter. it means that when you do make contact, you make hard contact/find holes. strikeout totals can affect batting average. that doesn't mean bating average shows strikeout tendencies.

Edited January 20, 2009 by 17 Seconds

[David]

IIRC, Patterson only had one really really good year in the minors... with the Lugnuts.

 

Pie killed at every level after getting a chance to acclimate himself.

[CubinNY]

the key here is we're talking about minor league numbers, not major league numbers. players with strikeout totals like pie's in the minors generally see those numbers increase in the majors.

Data please.

[17 Seconds]

the Patterson comparisons are insulting to anybody with use of their brains

 

compare both players performance at the same age, at the same levels and you've got really no similarities

 

really? let's look at it.

 

patterson's 3 minor league seasons at ages 19(A), 20 (AA), and 21(AAA)

 

1286 ABs - 265 Ks

 

pie's 3 seasons at the same ages (19,20,21) and same levels (A,AA,AAA)

 

1230 ABs - 295 Ks

 

No similarities, huh?

 

really i don't see how we can even be having an argument about this. i think it's pretty obvious pie is a low contact guy. i don't know how you can try to spin that.