Re: Teahen for Fontenot and Marshall?

[Clem Fandango]

Wasn't there some blogger who developed his own defensive rating system that said Theriot had one of the strongest arms in the majors?

[SweetZombieJesus]

Wasn't there some blogger who developed his own defensive rating system that said Theriot had one of the strongest arms in the majors?

 

It was probably the Cajun Cannon metric developed by the blogger #2'sCajunMommy

[17 Seconds]

Wasn't there some blogger who developed his own defensive rating system that said Theriot had one of the strongest arms in the majors?

 

Sounds legendary

[CUBZ99]

Theriot is not even close to being average defensively

 

http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/030070.php

 

http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/023929.php

 

Perfect example of why defensive metrics are worthless. I knew somebody was going to post something like that. You can make pretty much anybody look good if you dig hard enough through that stuff.

 

So you think Theriot is average defensively? Come on. I'm trying to avoid the dreaded "don't you watch the games?" line, but it's almost necessary. No way you could have watched him plau for more than 15 games and say that he is anything but below average defesnively.

 

"Hey, there's a ball hit 2 feet to my right. I think I'm going to unneccessarily drop to my knees and field it because I have plenty of time with my rocket arm. Wait, he was safe? How is that possible?"

 

Yes, I'm sure if you searched you'd find me talking about how limited Theriot's range appears to be, or how weak his arm is. However, PMR is nothing to scoff at, and I'm definitely willing to reconsider that Theriot isn't as bad a defender as he appears(just like Adam Dunn isn't as bad a hitter as he appears when he looks really bad swinging and missing).

 

Using stats to get a realistic gauge of a player? There is a concept. What is it about Theriot that makes so many people blindly hate on him? He is not a superstar, but he is very serviceable SS.

[Sever82]

first of I capitalized grind and toughness by accident idiot. I didn't capitalize it to make a point. Another thing didn't one of you guys post not to emphasize certain stats but yet you want to talk on base. Second people don't like theriot because he is garbage. You guys want to criticize but yet you call theriot average defensively, give me a break, anybody can look average if their range consists of a foot to the left and right. Then you have his noodle arm that is accurate for the most part since it's being thrown at 50mph.

[umpunk]

Theriot is not even close to being average defensively

 

http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/030070.php

 

http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/023929.php

 

Perfect example of why defensive metrics are worthless. I knew somebody was going to post something like that. You can make pretty much anybody look good if you dig hard enough through that stuff.

 

So you think Theriot is average defensively? Come on. I'm trying to avoid the dreaded "don't you watch the games?" line, but it's almost necessary. No way you could have watched him plau for more than 15 games and say that he is anything but below average defesnively.

 

"Hey, there's a ball hit 2 feet to my right. I think I'm going to unneccessarily drop to my knees and field it because I have plenty of time with my rocket arm. Wait, he was safe? How is that possible?"

 

Ok, so let me get this straight - I can either trust hard, empirical evidence or dextermorgan's clearly unbiased memory? Hum....

[E.J.]

first of I capitalized grind and toughness by accident idiot. I didn't capitalize it to make a point. Another thing didn't one of you guys post not to emphasize certain stats but yet you want to talk on base. Second people don't like theriot because he is garbage. You guys want to criticize but yet you call theriot average defensively, give me a break, anybody can look average if their range consists of a foot to the left and right. Then you have his noodle arm that is accurate for the most part since it's being thrown at 50mph.

 

Welcome to the forums. Please refrain from attacking fellow posters.

[17 Seconds]

Theriot is not even close to being average defensively

 

http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/030070.php

 

http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/023929.php

 

Perfect example of why defensive metrics are worthless. I knew somebody was going to post something like that. You can make pretty much anybody look good if you dig hard enough through that stuff.

 

So you think Theriot is average defensively? Come on. I'm trying to avoid the dreaded "don't you watch the games?" line, but it's almost necessary. No way you could have watched him plau for more than 15 games and say that he is anything but below average defesnively.

 

"Hey, there's a ball hit 2 feet to my right. I think I'm going to unneccessarily drop to my knees and field it because I have plenty of time with my rocket arm. Wait, he was safe? How is that possible?"

 

Yes, I'm sure if you searched you'd find me talking about how limited Theriot's range appears to be, or how weak his arm is. However, PMR is nothing to scoff at, and I'm definitely willing to reconsider that Theriot isn't as bad a defender as he appears(just like Adam Dunn isn't as bad a hitter as he appears when he looks really bad swinging and missing).

 

Using stats to get a realistic gauge of a player? There is a concept. What is it about Theriot that makes so many people blindly hate on him? He is not a superstar, but he is very serviceable SS.

 

So because I point out Theriot's obvious flaws that means I hate him?

[17 Seconds]

Theriot is not even close to being average defensively

 

http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/030070.php

 

http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/023929.php

 

Perfect example of why defensive metrics are worthless. I knew somebody was going to post something like that. You can make pretty much anybody look good if you dig hard enough through that stuff.

 

So you think Theriot is average defensively? Come on. I'm trying to avoid the dreaded "don't you watch the games?" line, but it's almost necessary. No way you could have watched him plau for more than 15 games and say that he is anything but below average defesnively.

 

"Hey, there's a ball hit 2 feet to my right. I think I'm going to unneccessarily drop to my knees and field it because I have plenty of time with my rocket arm. Wait, he was safe? How is that possible?"

 

Ok, so let me get this straight - I can either trust hard, empirical evidence or dextermorgan's clearly unbiased memory? Hum....

 

Defensive metrics are far from "hard, empirical evidence". They are extremely unreliable and jump all over the place from year to year. There are simply too many variables to accurately put defense into numbers.

 

So you're saying you think Theriot is average defenisvely? And why do you imply that I'm biased? I have nothing against Theriot.

[SweetZombieJesus]

Using stats to get a realistic gauge of a player? There is a concept. What is it about Theriot that makes so many people blindly hate on him? He is not a superstar, but he is very serviceable SS.

 

except he's not a servicable SS. He's a servicable utility player playing SS out of necessity because the only real shortstop on the roster has the baseball IQ of Corky from life goes on.

[wrigley23]

you mean like DeRosa? Theriot should be at 2B & hit second as his batting personality is perfect in that spot. DeRo is a great utility player from the right side/Fontenot from the left. A healthy Furcal leading off at SS would solve any perceived fielding deficiencies at that position while solidifying the leadoff position w/ a very high obp/baserunning at the top while adding a lefthanded bat. Soriano when right is a great extra base hit man that would be well suited in the 3 or 5 hole. At 3, he should see more fastballs due to speedy baserunners & baserunners in general. He has proven to be a dead red fastball hitter. Getting Peavy would be icing on the cake although a thumping, lefthanded right fielder like Abreu or Milton Bradley would be my preference.

[CoolHandLuke]

Batting personality.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Batting personality.

 

That's definitely a new one.

[umpunk]

Theriot is not even close to being average defensively

 

http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/030070.php

 

http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/023929.php

 

Perfect example of why defensive metrics are worthless. I knew somebody was going to post something like that. You can make pretty much anybody look good if you dig hard enough through that stuff.

 

So you think Theriot is average defensively? Come on. I'm trying to avoid the dreaded "don't you watch the games?" line, but it's almost necessary. No way you could have watched him plau for more than 15 games and say that he is anything but below average defesnively.

 

"Hey, there's a ball hit 2 feet to my right. I think I'm going to unneccessarily drop to my knees and field it because I have plenty of time with my rocket arm. Wait, he was safe? How is that possible?"

 

Ok, so let me get this straight - I can either trust hard, empirical evidence or dextermorgan's clearly unbiased memory? Hum....

 

Defensive metrics are far from "hard, empirical evidence". They are extremely unreliable and jump all over the place from year to year. There are simply too many variables to accurately put defense into numbers.

 

So you're saying you think Theriot is average defenisvely? And why do you imply that I'm biased? I have nothing against Theriot.

 

I'm not saying you hate Theriot, I'm suggesting that you think he is a bad defensive player and refuse to let any evidence that suggests otherwise in to your thinking (even though there is a more than a little to suggest he is at least average). If you want to claim defensive stats are unreliable, that's fine - to an extent they are. At the end of the day though are you are doing is saying, "I will be the judge a player is bad playing defense, not any unbiased estimator, stat, or anything else." If you take that approach, you can never argue with anybody on defense then - I could make insane claims like Ward is a solid right fielder and say, "just watch the game."

[UK1679666180]

Batting personality.

 

That's definitely a new one.

 

I think trait would be a better word, he does have those qualities as far as his inside out swing and good bat control that allows him to send much of his contact to short RF as far as a prototypical #2 hitter.

 

I'm still skeptical as far as him maintaining that for an entire season, he does get fatigued and loses some of the bat speed when he gets busted in. That's the easiest way to tell with Theriot is going well; when he gets busted in, he can muscle it over 2B. When he's going bad, he'll ground out to 2B.

[wastra]

I don't think Theriot is a particularly great player, but if he's among the weakest links in your otherwise potent lineup, with a solib OBP and non-disasterous defense at short, I'm not going to complain too loudly.

 

He's not a huge plus, but he gets on base often enough to make him valuable if used correctly- if only because he doesn't kill you and allows you to spend more freely elsewhere.

[javy knows my name]

first of I capitalized grind and toughness by accident idiot.

that's Even worse, duDe. Means it's so cerebral that you do it subconsciously.

[KingCubsFan]

People hate him here simply because he's been described with terms like "gritty" and "grinder." Fact of the matter is there's nobody worth paying for or trading for to provide a marginal upgrade at the position. People may call last season a fluke, but they were saying the same thing last offseason (I think I even made a thread about it). He deserves another chance to start, and I'm not much of a fan.

[Jehrico]

I don't think Theriot is a particularly great player, but if he's among the weakest links in your otherwise potent lineup, with a solib OBP and non-disasterous defense at short, I'm not going to complain too loudly.

 

He's not a huge plus, but he gets on base often enough to make him valuable if used correctly- if only because he doesn't kill you and allows you to spend more freely elsewhere.

I don't think Theriot is as bad as some people make him out to be. However, I'm not willing to bet that he can reproduce what he did last year either. I expect him to regress towards the norm. He may not, who knows. Either way, his value is as high as it's going to ever be and he's replacable. We either need to sell high on a trade with him this offseason, or just accept he's going to be our starting SS for the next 5 years.

[BigbadB]

I get scared every time someone posts in this thread. I guess I'm the guilty party this time. That is all.

[Guest]

I don't think Theriot is a particularly great player, but if he's among the weakest links in your otherwise potent lineup, with a solib OBP and non-disasterous defense at short, I'm not going to complain too loudly.

 

He's not a huge plus, but he gets on base often enough to make him valuable if used correctly- if only because he doesn't kill you and allows you to spend more freely elsewhere.

Wsmith and wastra posting within 24 hours. It's like an old-time reunion! Now we need mark peel, diffusion & a few others to join the party! :D

[davearm2]

I don't think Theriot is a particularly great player, but if he's among the weakest links in your otherwise potent lineup, with a solib OBP and non-disasterous defense at short, I'm not going to complain too loudly.

 

He's not a huge plus, but he gets on base often enough to make him valuable if used correctly- if only because he doesn't kill you and allows you to spend more freely elsewhere.

I don't think Theriot is as bad as some people make him out to be. However, I'm not willing to bet that he can reproduce what he did last year either. I expect him to regress towards the norm. He may not, who knows. Either way, his value is as high as it's going to ever be and he's replacable. We either need to sell high on a trade with him this offseason, or just accept he's going to be our starting SS for the next 5 years.

What norm, though?

 

Going back to AA in '05, Theriot's posted pretty consistent .300 AVG, low-SLG, OBP-heavy .750ish OPS's, and that's exactly what the Cubs got from him in '08.

 

Seems to me that, if anything, he regressed to the norm in '08, and '07 was uncharacteristically bad.

 

Of course perhaps the better explanation is that Theriot simply hasn't been in the bigleagues long enough to establish a norm in the first place. At any rate, I surely wouldn't be so quick to assume that '07 is it, and that some sort of deline from '08 levels is inevitable.

[wilk]

I don't think Theriot is a particularly great player, but if he's among the weakest links in your otherwise potent lineup, with a solib OBP and non-disasterous defense at short, I'm not going to complain too loudly.

 

He's not a huge plus, but he gets on base often enough to make him valuable if used correctly- if only because he doesn't kill you and allows you to spend more freely elsewhere.

I don't think Theriot is as bad as some people make him out to be. However, I'm not willing to bet that he can reproduce what he did last year either. I expect him to regress towards the norm. He may not, who knows. Either way, his value is as high as it's going to ever be and he's replacable. We either need to sell high on a trade with him this offseason, or just accept he's going to be our starting SS for the next 5 years.

What norm, though?

 

Going back to AA in '05, Theriot's posted pretty consistent .300 AVG, low-SLG, OBP-heavy .750ish OPS's, and that's exactly what the Cubs got from him in '08.

 

Seems to me that, if anything, he regressed to the norm in '08, and '07 was uncharacteristically bad.

 

Of course perhaps the better explanation is that Theriot simply hasn't been in the bigleagues long enough to establish a norm in the first place. At any rate, I surely wouldn't be so quick to assume that '07 is it, and that some sort of deline from '08 levels is inevitable.

 

Well, he was the 4th "luckiest" (BABIP-xBABIP) hitter in baseball last year. So that's at least one method saying it's rather inevitable.

[SouthSideRyan]

Batting personality.

 

That's definitely a new one.

 

I think trait would be a better word, he does have those qualities as far as his inside out swing and good bat control that allows him to send much of his contact to short RF as far as a prototypical #2 hitter.

 

 

He also has a high GIDP rate which is not so good for a 2 hitter.

[UK1679666180]

Batting personality.

 

That's definitely a new one.

 

I think trait would be a better word, he does have those qualities as far as his inside out swing and good bat control that allows him to send much of his contact to short RF as far as a prototypical #2 hitter.

 

 

He also has a high GIDP rate which is not so good for a 2 hitter.

 

Agreed, but he still hits .381 to right side, scored 68 runs 104 games when he hit 2nd and an OBP of .373.

 

Given the Cubs current roster, it's either him or Derosa as far as viable #2 hitters.