Harden & Gaudin for Gallagher, Murton, EPatt & Donaldson

[wekse]

harden seems like a big time dork in that video.

 

The dude can throw a baseball over 95 mph. What can you do?

 

Dork.

 

well, why don't you ask your mom what i can do?

 

OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[BigbadB]

Analyzing this deal, Beane really baffles me on this deal. For Harden and Gaudin, I would have imagined he'd want something along the lines of Gallagher, Colvin and/or Donaldson, Veal and Ascanio. I'm confused by the value of Murton and Patterson, especially with the depth of their outfield (Cust, Buck, Brown, Gonzalez, Sweeney, Davis, DeNorfia, etc...)

 

At least with guys like Colvin, Donaldson and Veal, they could develop these guys while their option clocks haven't kicked in. Also, I'd be interested in a guy like Ascanio for the pen, especially if I'm a small market team needing cheap bullpen help.

 

From what I understand, the deal hinged around Gally, not Murton and/or EPatt. I wouldn't discount Gallagher like some others seem to. He's very young yet, doesn't have an injury history, and has shown some signs of being a solid rotation guy.

 

Beane's not going to be able to rape our entire minor league system for a pitcher who has done 9 DL stints in the past 6 years. He knows that. Whether or not he's an ace when he's healthy is mitigated by the injury history.

 

Tell me this. You are in sell mode, and there is only a small handful of top tier starters who will be available at the deadline. Would you take a package of Sean Gallagher, Eric Patterson, Matt Murton and Josh Donaldson for Harden and Gaudin?

 

Please remember that teams like the Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox and Angels might be bidding on Harden's services, also.

 

To me, gambling on Harden's health is the other team's problem, not Beane's. It's Beane's job to get the best possible return for dealing Harden, and I don't think he did that. I'm thankful he didn't, but this is most definitely not a shining moment for Beane.

 

Heck, I think the Cardinals could have thrown together a better package than the Cubs gave up. Essentially, the Cubs gave up a guy who has yet to define a defensive position and his major league bat is suspect (Patterson), a guy who the Cubs have basically shown no need and probably wouldn't land a starting OF job on any major league team (Murton), a guy who has the potential to be a major league catcher some day, but he's not a top tier prospect (Donaldson), and a young pitcher who will likely fill the back end of their rotation for the next several years (Gallagher). Granted, Gallagher has value, but not the kind of value I would expect Rich Harden to command during a pennant race and with lots of big market teams hot after him.

 

Essentially, Harden was dealt before most teams were even aware he was available. This deal was done quickly, quietly and apparently somewhat privately. Kudos to Hendry. I don't give him those very often, but it's warranted here.

[Soul]

Analyzing this deal, Beane really baffles me on this deal. For Harden and Gaudin, I would have imagined he'd want something along the lines of Gallagher, Colvin and/or Donaldson, Veal and Ascanio. I'm confused by the value of Murton and Patterson, especially with the depth of their outfield (Cust, Buck, Brown, Gonzalez, Sweeney, Davis, DeNorfia, etc...)

 

At least with guys like Colvin, Donaldson and Veal, they could develop these guys while their option clocks haven't kicked in. Also, I'd be interested in a guy like Ascanio for the pen, especially if I'm a small market team needing cheap bullpen help.

 

From what I understand, the deal hinged around Gally, not Murton and/or EPatt. I wouldn't discount Gallagher like some others seem to. He's very young yet, doesn't have an injury history, and has shown some signs of being a solid rotation guy.

 

Beane's not going to be able to rape our entire minor league system for a pitcher who has done 9 DL stints in the past 6 years. He knows that. Whether or not he's an ace when he's healthy is mitigated by the injury history.

 

Tell me this. You are in sell mode, and there is only a small handful of top tier starters who will be available at the deadline. Would you take a package of Sean Gallagher, Eric Patterson, Matt Murton and Josh Donaldson for Harden and Gaudin?

 

Please remember that teams like the Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox and Angels might be bidding on Harden's services, also.

 

To me, gambling on Harden's health is the other team's problem, not Beane's. It's Beane's job to get the best possible return for dealing Harden, and I don't think he did that. I'm thankful he didn't, but this is most definitely not a shining moment for Beane.

 

Heck, I think the Cardinals could have thrown together a better package than the Cubs gave up. Essentially, the Cubs gave up a guy who has yet to define a defensive position and his major league bat is suspect (Patterson), a guy who the Cubs have basically shown no need and probably wouldn't land a starting OF job on any major league team (Murton), a guy who has the potential to be a major league catcher some day, but he's not a top tier prospect (Donaldson), and a young pitcher who will likely fill the back end of their rotation for the next several years (Gallagher). Granted, Gallagher has value, but not the kind of value I would expect Rich Harden to command during a pennant race and with lots of big market teams hot after him.

 

Essentially, Harden was dealt before most teams were even aware he was available. This deal was done quickly, quietly and apparently somewhat privately. Kudos to Hendry. I don't give him those very often, but it's warranted here.

 

Well, if you're going to throw teams like the Yanks and Red Sox and Angels into the mix, then do you trade Harden to a team where he can come back to haunt you, or do you send him somewhere where he can't? Especially the Angels -- Beane would have to be nuts to hand Harden over to them, I would think.

 

I really don't know what the Cardinals were thinking, or the Dodgers. I suppose if they were really interested, then kudos to Hendry for heading that off at the pass. But do you really think it's realistic to say that they have no idea what's going on? I don't think you're giving them enough credit.

 

Maybe we're not giving Hendry enough credit, too. This was a good deal, though there is that risk.

[erik316wttn]

Any news on if the Cardinals are looking at Burnett, Bedard, etc? It only makes sense that they'd be next to add to their rotation.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Well, if you're going to throw teams like the Yanks and Red Sox and Angels into the mix, then do you trade Harden to a team where he can come back to haunt you, or do you send him somewhere where he can't? Especially the Angels -- Beane would have to be nuts to hand Harden over to them, I would think.

if you're going to trade a player, you trade him to the team that gives your team the better chance for winning. even if that team is in your division

[Soul]

Well, if you're going to throw teams like the Yanks and Red Sox and Angels into the mix, then do you trade Harden to a team where he can come back to haunt you, or do you send him somewhere where he can't? Especially the Angels -- Beane would have to be nuts to hand Harden over to them, I would think.

if you're going to trade a player, you trade him to the team that gives your team the better chance for winning. even if that team is in your division

 

That's not how it often works out, you know that.

[Butterscup1679666578]

Any news on if the Cardinals are looking at Burnett, Bedard, etc? It only makes sense that they'd be next to add to their rotation.

 

I was watching the Cards game last night and their GM was on and he mentioned that they probably aren't going to make a huge deal, and are banking on Carpenter and Wainwright coming back

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

What do we know about Gaudin?

 

That his name is pronounced Go Dan.

 

Not to steal Vance's thunder, but I think it's pronounced Geaux Dan.

 

Thanks, man! Nice work!

[Lefty]

Analyzing this deal, Beane really baffles me on this deal.

 

I just assume Beane has superior information on Harden's health. Essentially it is Gallagher for Harden. That's a challenge trade.

[Joe_Cub]

Tell me this. You are in sell mode, and there is only a small handful of top tier starters who will be available at the deadline. Would you take a package of Sean Gallagher, Eric Patterson, Matt Murton and Josh Donaldson for Harden and Gaudin?

 

Please remember that teams like the Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox and Angels might be bidding on Harden's services, also.

 

To me, gambling on Harden's health is the other team's problem, not Beane's. It's Beane's job to get the best possible return for dealing Harden, and I don't think he did that. I'm thankful he didn't, but this is most definitely not a shining moment for Beane.

 

Heck, I think the Cardinals could have thrown together a better package than the Cubs gave up. Essentially, the Cubs gave up a guy who has yet to define a defensive position and his major league bat is suspect (Patterson), a guy who the Cubs have basically shown no need and probably wouldn't land a starting OF job on any major league team (Murton), a guy who has the potential to be a major league catcher some day, but he's not a top tier prospect (Donaldson), and a young pitcher who will likely fill the back end of their rotation for the next several years (Gallagher). Granted, Gallagher has value, but not the kind of value I would expect Rich Harden to command during a pennant race and with lots of big market teams hot after him.

 

Essentially, Harden was dealt before most teams were even aware he was available. This deal was done quickly, quietly and apparently somewhat privately. Kudos to Hendry. I don't give him those very often, but it's warranted here.

 

if beane was set on getting back a young pitcher he could immediately slot into their starting rotation, he may not have had a better offer than gallagher. the yankees and red sox, for instance, have been reluctant to deal their young pitchers. if the espn sidebar is accurate, gallagher is who beane targeted from the get-go from the cubs. for all the talk about how the cubs don't have young mlb-ready bats, they do have some pitching depth, even now.

[UMFan83]

What do Pau Gasol and Rich Harden have in common?

[jersey cubs fan]

Tell me this. You are in sell mode, and there is only a small handful of top tier starters who will be available at the deadline. Would you take a package of Sean Gallagher, Eric Patterson, Matt Murton and Josh Donaldson for Harden and Gaudin?

 

Please remember that teams like the Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox and Angels might be bidding on Harden's services, also.

 

To me, gambling on Harden's health is the other team's problem, not Beane's. It's Beane's job to get the best possible return for dealing Harden, and I don't think he did that.

 

It's Beane's job to do the best he can for the Oakland A's. If Rich Harden was a 200 IP pitcher every year he could afford to hold out for the highest offer until July 31. He saved his financially questionable team lots of money this year, and erased any risk of losing Harden between now and the break. Could he have held out for more, probably. But how much more? I doubt a lot. People keep talking about other teams that have so much more to offer, without thinking about the fact that very rarely do those higher rated prospects actually get packaged in deals. He got a dirt cheap starting pitcher who can start in the majors the rest of the year and be under their control for years. Are the Yankees or Boston offering them that this year? The Yankees weren't offering pitching prospects for Sabathia or Santana, they weren't going to offer them for Harden.

 

Gallagher is a legit prospect that people strangely undervalue. He's got a 2-3 ceiling, and he is already showing a tremendous likelihood of reaching his ceiling, or at least get close to it. He also got 2 guys who are capable of starting on good teams, and a very solid catching prospect. He got exactly what he was capable of getting for Rich Harden. He wasn't going to get much more if he waited, and he could have gotten nothing if he did.

[erik316wttn]

What do Pau Gasol and Rich Harden have in common?

 

Don't make that comparison, though. Yes, both were steals. Both were good trades. But in the end, the Lakers lost in the finals.

[PrimeTime]

From what I heard on the radio today, Hendry did have access to Harden's medical records, but he was not looked at by Cubs' doctors beforehand. He said he trusted the A's medical staff. With Harden's velocity coming down lately (which happens in the course of a season) and Beane's desire to trade Harden rather quickly and with his team still in the race, this is reason for a little concern. But Harden still has to pass his physical in Chicago for the trade to be formalized right?

 

 

 

Where/when has Harden's velocity decreased?

 

I seen in the beginning of the year before he we was out he was throwing anywhere from 95-98..Then lately they said he's been throwing 90-92 touching 94 sometimes..

[jersey cubs fan]

What do Pau Gasol and Rich Harden have in common?

 

Don't make that comparison, though. Yes, both were steals. Both were good trades. But in the end, the Lakers lost in the finals.

 

This was not a steal.

 

Rich Harden is damaged goods who may or may not make 10-15 starts the rest of the year. It's a risk, one that GMs aren't going to get the motherload in return for.

[Butterscup1679666578]

From what I heard on the radio today, Hendry did have access to Harden's medical records, but he was not looked at by Cubs' doctors beforehand. He said he trusted the A's medical staff. With Harden's velocity coming down lately (which happens in the course of a season) and Beane's desire to trade Harden rather quickly and with his team still in the race, this is reason for a little concern. But Harden still has to pass his physical in Chicago for the trade to be formalized right?

 

 

 

Where/when has Harden's velocity decreased?

 

I seen in the beginning of the year before he we was out he was throwing anywhere from 95-98..Then lately they said he's been throwing 90-92 touching 94 sometimes..

 

Read the Rich Harden post in Cubs Discussions. He hasn't dropped that much in velocity, the media just doesn't know what they are talking about.

[roadster]

From what I heard on the radio today, Hendry did have access to Harden's medical records, but he was not looked at by Cubs' doctors beforehand. He said he trusted the A's medical staff. With Harden's velocity coming down lately (which happens in the course of a season) and Beane's desire to trade Harden rather quickly and with his team still in the race, this is reason for a little concern. But Harden still has to pass his physical in Chicago for the trade to be formalized right?

 

 

 

Where/when has Harden's velocity decreased?

 

I seen in the beginning of the year before he we was out he was throwing anywhere from 95-98..Then lately they said he's been throwing 90-92 touching 94 sometimes..

 

Read the Rich Harden post in Cubs Discussions. He hasn't dropped that much in velocity, the media just doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

I saw some of the Sox/As game last week when Harden pitch and from the Gun (it may be inaccurate) he was throwing 92 to 95 FB.

[Tyrant]

harden seems like a big time dork in that video.

 

He's Canadian. He can't help it.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Im surprised that Murton was sent to Oaklands AAA team. Hes got to be an upgrade over Travis Buck or Emil Brown, doesnt he?

[Brian]

Guess what Rich Harden's favorite city is? This is from May: http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200805022627603

how could he pick Batman over SUPERman?

 

Hey maybe he'll go to the Dark Night with me if I ask nicely

[gflore34]

Tell me this. You are in sell mode, and there is only a small handful of top tier starters who will be available at the deadline. Would you take a package of Sean Gallagher, Eric Patterson, Matt Murton and Josh Donaldson for Harden and Gaudin?

 

Please remember that teams like the Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox and Angels might be bidding on Harden's services, also.

 

To me, gambling on Harden's health is the other team's problem, not Beane's. It's Beane's job to get the best possible return for dealing Harden, and I don't think he did that.

 

It's Beane's job to do the best he can for the Oakland A's. If Rich Harden was a 200 IP pitcher every year he could afford to hold out for the highest offer until July 31. He saved his financially questionable team lots of money this year, and erased any risk of losing Harden between now and the break. Could he have held out for more, probably. But how much more? I doubt a lot. People keep talking about other teams that have so much more to offer, without thinking about the fact that very rarely do those higher rated prospects actually get packaged in deals. He got a dirt cheap starting pitcher who can start in the majors the rest of the year and be under their control for years. Are the Yankees or Boston offering them that this year? The Yankees weren't offering pitching prospects for Sabathia or Santana, they weren't going to offer them for Harden.

 

Gallagher is a legit prospect that people strangely undervalue. He's got a 2-3 ceiling, and he is already showing a tremendous likelihood of reaching his ceiling, or at least get close to it. He also got 2 guys who are capable of starting on good teams, and a very solid catching prospect. He got exactly what he was capable of getting for Rich Harden. He wasn't going to get much more if he waited, and he could have gotten nothing if he did.

 

I share these sentiments, if the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers or Cardinals had a Gallagher available doesn't one think they would have made the trade?

[TruffleShuffle]

BP on the deal:

Subscribers

 

Non-subscribers can read this

 

By the way, joe sheehan of BP will be on outside the lines at 3:30 (i think that's 3:30 my time, eastern) and will be talking about the trade.

[nolanwood]

From what I heard on the radio today, Hendry did have access to Harden's medical records, but he was not looked at by Cubs' doctors beforehand. He said he trusted the A's medical staff. With Harden's velocity coming down lately (which happens in the course of a season) and Beane's desire to trade Harden rather quickly and with his team still in the race, this is reason for a little concern. But Harden still has to pass his physical in Chicago for the trade to be formalized right?

 

 

 

Where/when has Harden's velocity decreased?

 

I seen in the beginning of the year before he we was out he was throwing anywhere from 95-98..Then lately they said he's been throwing 90-92 touching 94 sometimes..

 

There's another thread discussing his health in the Discussion forum - but there's no evidence that his velocity is down. I watched his start on sunday vs. the Sox, and his FB was in the same range it's been all year - 90-94 (touching 96/97 a couple times).

[sneakypower]

BP on the deal:

Subscribers

 

Non-subscribers can read this

 

By the way, joe sheehan of BP will be on outside the lines at 3:30 (i think that's 3:30 my time, eastern) and will be talking about the trade.

so Christina Kahrl likes the Scissor Sisters

 

:-k

[Joe_Cub]

BP on the deal:

Subscribers

 

Non-subscribers can read this

 

By the way, joe sheehan of BP will be on outside the lines at 3:30 (i think that's 3:30 my time, eastern) and will be talking about the trade.

 

Which Dempster would the team get, the guy who's given them three quality starts in eight on the road, or eight of ten at home? Would the playoff schedule cooperate? (And is this another brickbat in the burgeoning conspiracy theory that the Cubs are enjoying something extra in their home-field advantage?)

 

so now it's a burgeoning conspiracy theory?