Ryan Theriot

[SouthSideRyan]

I don't understand this blatant disregard for minor league numbers as if they are meaningless. Wow.

 

When taken into account along with age and the league that's being played in, they're an extremely useful way of predicting a player's major league performance. People want to just toss them aside and say, "Tell me what he's done at the major league level." I can't even comprehend it.

 

Felix Pie.

 

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

 

His situation is analogous to Cedeno's, only with far fewer chances to prove himself at the MLB level. He obliterated AAA as a 22 year old, yet people want to ship him out for very little return.

 

I don't think people want to ship out for very little. The smallest return I've seen for Pie is Khlail Greene and how small that return is viewed is based on the huge fluctuation of opinions on the value of Greene.(This is where Meph responds, "My opinion and the wrong opinions")

[David]

If Cedeno is truly better, then he needs to show up at S.T. and show it. If Theriot outproduces him there, he will be the guy.

 

I'm not advocating for either, but giving the job to Cedeno without having him show that he can hit above AAA is foolish. Make him earn the position, and same with Theriot.

 

Jobs should never have to be earned or decided in ST. I can put up with it for a 25th man situation, but it's just foolish to base a starting job on ST performance.

 

I'll take seasons and hundreds of PA's worth of minor league performance over stats produced in the absurd circumstances of a month of ST.

[CubinNY]

If Cedeno is truly better, then he needs to show up at S.T. and show it. If Theriot outproduces him there, he will be the guy.

 

I'm not advocating for either, but giving the job to Cedeno without having him show that he can hit above AAA is foolish. Make him earn the position, and same with Theriot.

 

ST is about the worst time to evaluate a player. The problem is that the Cubs cannot really afford either one to stink once the season begins. I'd take my chances with Cedeno.

[Derwood]

If Cedeno is truly better, then he needs to show up at S.T. and show it. If Theriot outproduces him there, he will be the guy.

 

I'm not advocating for either, but giving the job to Cedeno without having him show that he can hit above AAA is foolish. Make him earn the position, and same with Theriot.

 

spring training is a lousy way to determine who deserves the starting job

[SouthSideRyan]

If Cedeno is truly better, then he needs to show up at S.T. and show it. If Theriot outproduces him there, he will be the guy.

 

I'm not advocating for either, but giving the job to Cedeno without having him show that he can hit above AAA is foolish. Make him earn the position, and same with Theriot.

 

ST #s last year:

 

Theriot: 347 .405 .520

Cedeno: 328 .427 .516

 

Spring Training can be very misleading. It's a small sample size, players are just getting back into the swing of things again, and they're playing against varying skills of pitchers.

[DenverCubs]

If Cedeno is truly better, then he needs to show up at S.T. and show it. If Theriot outproduces him there, he will be the guy.

 

I'm not advocating for either, but giving the job to Cedeno without having him show that he can hit above AAA is foolish. Make him earn the position, and same with Theriot.

I agree with this, but it seems like right now it's like Theriot is the guy until Cedeno does something. I see nothing about Theriot that should give him the upper hand, other than the fact that he started last year (and was bad). Plus spring training has too few games against a lot AAA pitchers.

Edited December 11, 2007 by DenverCubs

[rocket]

thank god dustin pedrioa never came up through the cubs system.

[Ryno12]

That is the only chance I see Cedeno getting a spot to earn the starting job, unless Theriot faulters mightily at some point during the season. As of right now, Theriot is going to be the starter. I believe that Cedeno would outproduce Theriot this year, but unless he's given a chance to earn the starting nod, it won't happen. That is why I am advocating for them to compete over it in S.T.

[CUBZ99]

If Cedeno is truly better, then he needs to show up at S.T. and show it. If Theriot outproduces him there, he will be the guy.

 

I'm not advocating for either, but giving the job to Cedeno without having him show that he can hit above AAA is foolish. Make him earn the position, and same with Theriot.

 

ST #s last year:

 

Theriot: 347 .405 .520

Cedeno: 328 .427 .516

 

Spring Training can be very misleading. It's a small sample size, players are just getting back into the swing of things again, and they're playing against varying skills of pitchers.

 

They can be misleading, but unfortunately, it is the one time where players such as Cedeno have an opportunity to make an impression on the manager and the club.

[SABR Gamer]

thank god dustin pedrioa never came up through the cubs system.

 

haha they would have sent him down and erased his name acting as if he never existed after his first stint, but the Sawks stuck with him and BAM, they got a very good major league ball player.

 

Theriot really should never start another game for the Cubs unless about 5 infielders died at the same time, give Cedeno a shot PLZ. I mean even if he doesn't do well he probably would still be doing better than Theriot, and the potential upside that could happen would be huge. Cedeno is a decent gamble to take, Theriot is a gamble that probably will fail 95/100 times.

[sneakypower]

 

I don't think people want to ship out for very little. The smallest return I've seen for Pie is Khlail Greene and how small that return is viewed is based on the huge fluctuation of opinions on the value of Greene.(This is where Meph responds, "My opinion and the wrong opinions")

 

Trading him for a career .254 hitter with uninspiring ISOs who's already at arbitration with FA upcoming in 09 is what I consider very little return. It's also been suggested we relegate him to AAA next year to give Mark Derosa fulltime RF duties, or to trade him for Roberts. There's not much support for Pie, but endless praise for Cedeno on here.

[DenverCubs]

 

I don't think people want to ship out for very little. The smallest return I've seen for Pie is Khlail Greene and how small that return is viewed is based on the huge fluctuation of opinions on the value of Greene.(This is where Meph responds, "My opinion and the wrong opinions")

 

Trading him for a career .254 hitter with uninspiring ISOs who's already at arbitration with FA upcoming in 09 is what I consider very little return. It's also been suggested we relegate him to AAA next year to give Mark Derosa fulltime RF duties, or to trade him for Roberts. There's not much support for Pie, but endless praise for Cedeno on here.

If Ryan Theriot was our center fielder, there would be abundant support for Pie.

[fromthestretch]

thank god dustin pedrioa never came up through the cubs system.

 

"Just think, that temp agency could have sent you anywhere."

"I think about that all the time."

[CuseCubFan69]

One of the things Lou may be looking at is baserunning skills. If I remember correctly Cedeno made a lot of boneheaded running mistakes while Theriot is a very good baserunner.

[craig]

I don't see all the horror. Theriot is mediocre, both defensively and offensively. But average or above-average SS's don't grow on trees or come for nothing. If we're below average at SS, we won't be the first winning team with that. We can win a lot of games with Theriot as a .326-OBP guy; if the salaried guys produce.

 

Some have said that since Lou has tabbed Theriot as starter, that he'll block Cedeno even if Cedeno is better. Others have argued that Theriot had a hot July, without which his numbers are really poor.

 

But I think a good thing is that, if we keep Cedeno, that we can't have it both ways bad. If Cedeno is blocked for long, it will mean Theriot is sustaining an OK OBP and isn't being an auto-out as was true in September and June. If he is doing really bad, with an OBP well below this year's .326, then he's not going to be much of a block to Cedeno, if in fact Cedeno is able to show anything.

 

So either Theriot is much stinkier than he was this year, or he'll block Cedeno. But he can't both really stink and block Cedeno at the same time.

[SouthSideRyan]

I don't see all the horror. Theriot is mediocre, both defensively and offensively. But average or above-average SS's don't grow on trees or come for nothing. If we're below average at SS, we won't be the first winning team with that. We can win a lot of games with Theriot as a .326-OBP guy; if the salaried guys produce.

 

Some have said that since Lou has tabbed Theriot as starter, that he'll block Cedeno even if Cedeno is better. Others have argued that Theriot had a hot July, without which his numbers are really poor.

 

But I think a good thing is that, if we keep Cedeno, that we can't have it both ways bad. If Cedeno is blocked for long, it will mean Theriot is sustaining an OK OBP and isn't being an auto-out as was true in September and June. If he is doing really bad, with an OBP well below this year's .326, then he's not going to be much of a block to Cedeno, if in fact Cedeno is able to show anything.

 

So either Theriot is much stinkier than he was this year, or he'll block Cedeno. But he can't both really stink and block Cedeno at the same time.

 

But that's not true. Theriot was the definition of suck in September and he started 25 out of 28 games(not including scrub game 162.

[David]

I don't see all the horror. Theriot is mediocre, both defensively and offensively. But average or above-average SS's don't grow on trees or come for nothing. If we're below average at SS, we won't be the first winning team with that. We can win a lot of games with Theriot as a .326-OBP guy; if the salaried guys produce.

 

Some have said that since Lou has tabbed Theriot as starter, that he'll block Cedeno even if Cedeno is better. Others have argued that Theriot had a hot July, without which his numbers are really poor.

 

But I think a good thing is that, if we keep Cedeno, that we can't have it both ways bad. If Cedeno is blocked for long, it will mean Theriot is sustaining an OK OBP and isn't being an auto-out as was true in September and June. If he is doing really bad, with an OBP well below this year's .326, then he's not going to be much of a block to Cedeno, if in fact Cedeno is able to show anything.

 

So either Theriot is much stinkier than he was this year, or he'll block Cedeno. But he can't both really stink and block Cedeno at the same time.

 

He can do what he did last year, which was good enough to keep his job, but still extremely stinky.

[David]

That's twice that that's happened. SSR and I are on the same wavelength today, I guess.

[Ryno12]

I think that if Theriot has another month like September this year, Cedeno will get his chance.

[abuck1220]

But average or above-average SS's don't grow on trees or come for nothing.

 

aren't things that grow on trees, by definition, average?

[Derwood]

But average or above-average SS's don't grow on trees or come for nothing.

 

aren't things that grow on trees, by definition, average?

 

and wouldn't math say that half of the major league SS's are above average, in which case, they are as common as below average SS's?

[Sammy Sofa]

Theriot will due until Ronny is ready, or someone better is acquired.

 

This makes zero sense.

 

How will he ever be ready if he can't play? How are we supposed to know he's ready if Theriot is getting most or all of the playing time? People use minor league numbers to get a good idea if a player is ready to basically put up or shut up. Cedeno is at that point. Put him out there from the start and let him play for at least half the season. If he fails, then Theriot comes back until we get a new SS and he gets to be as medicore or worse as we all know he can be.

[inari]

thank god dustin pedrioa never came up through the cubs system.

 

"Just think, that temp agency could have sent you anywhere."

"I think about that all the time."

 

Temp! Temp! Temp!... Ryan! Ryan! Ryan!

[David]

 

I don't think people want to ship out for very little. The smallest return I've seen for Pie is Khlail Greene and how small that return is viewed is based on the huge fluctuation of opinions on the value of Greene.(This is where Meph responds, "My opinion and the wrong opinions")

 

Trading him for a career .254 hitter with uninspiring ISOs who's already at arbitration with FA upcoming in 09 is what I consider very little return. It's also been suggested we relegate him to AAA next year to give Mark Derosa fulltime RF duties, or to trade him for Roberts. There's not much support for Pie, but endless praise for Cedeno on here.

 

Khalil Greene in Wrigley for 81 games >>> Khalil Greene in PetCo for 81 games.

 

But I digress. No need to rehash this one.

[craig]

Heh, given only 30 teams in the majors, not more than 15 SS can be above-average starting SS's. None of those 15 average-or-better guys are readily available or come cheap. "Average" is expensive and valuable, in terms of starting SS's as it is with starting pitchers. I think "grows on trees" normally implies that you can find such easily and inexpensively. That does not seem to apply to the average starting SS.

 

Questionable measure, but I used 2007 SS winshares to bracket the "average" SS: Greene (12), Renteria (14), Drew (16), Tejada (17), Furcal (18).

 

The budget and/or talent cost of acquiring any of those players would not be trivial. Guys with Furcal's or Tejada's or Drew's talent do not "grow on trees" and are non-trivial to acquire.

 

Theriot will almost certainly never be as good as average. Cedeno might, but he hasn't come close to that yet, and may never. I hope we can upgrade, and I hope Cedeno is able to do that at no cost in talent or budget. But I don't have a problem in letting the season play itself out, and seeing who plays out as the least awful among Theriot, Cedeno, and DeRosa, in the event that we do acquire Roberts without including Cedeno in the process. If Cedeno emerges as average or close to average, that would be wonderful.