MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[anabiono]

holy christ we really need the games to start NOW

[wrigley23]

I find it ironic that others are allowed to state their same dry opinions over & over but since my opinion is different from yours somehow mine is not allowed.

[anabiono]

no, seriously, we really need those baseball games to start now

[badnews]

Wrigley23 - why do you keep ducking one of the main points?

 

You're lying to yourself:

 

like adding a hitter to the lineup as well w/ soriano moving down. If he gets nervous driving runners in then maybe $18 mill/yr & a potential world series bid for a team that has not won it in 100 yrs may serve as some sort of motivation

 

Wishful thinking. Equivocating. So forth. If Soriano is an .890 OPS guy hitting leadoff but an .810 OPS guy hitting in an RBI spot, then that's not adding a bigger hitter. It's subtracting one. As others have noted, there's nothing Roberts can't do hitting 2nd that he could do hitting 1st.

 

Basically, if Soriano is not going to hit better than Fukudome or DeRosa batting in an RBI spot, if he's going to strand a bunch of baserunners, then there's no point in putting him there.

 

Your arguments about "teaching him a lesson" are counterproductive to winning. What is good for the Cubs is Soriano hitting well, period. This is like the Red Sox with Bill Mueller. 2003-2004 Mueller was an ideal #2 type hitter and they wanted him to hit there. Mueller said he didn't much care for it there but okay, and sure enough, he didn't hit well there, and hit very well #8, where he was comfortable. They didn't say "Okay Bill Mueller, you can kiss my ass, you're hitting 2nd, even if your performance there hurts the team, because we're going to cut off our nose to spite our face and that will learn ya to mess with us."

 

In fact, if Bill Mueller hadn't been hitting 8th, the Red Sox wouldn't have won the 2004 World Series. It was Mueller who, hitting 8th, drove in Dave Roberts in the 9th inning to force extra innings in Game 4 of the ALCS. I guess you would've said he was "wasted there" or something.

 

The point you're missing: Players doing their best where they are more comfortable benefits the player and the team. Square pegs forced into round slots, players being forced to do what they are not good at, is not good for the player or the team.

 

This is like the LaTroy Hawkins conversation again. "He's great in the 8th, of course he has to close!"

[inari]

I find it ironic that others are allowed to state their same dry opinions over & over but since my opinion is different from yours somehow mine is not allowed.

 

Well you shouldn't, because that's note even close to irony.

[CuseCubFan69]

I find it ironic that others are allowed to state their same dry opinions over & over but since my opinion is different from yours somehow mine is not allowed.

 

 

You've made some decent points and don't let some posters get you down when it comes to posting. I like to see a different opinion and it's always good to have it here on the board.

[fromthestretch]

I find it ironic that others are allowed to state their same dry opinions over & over but since my opinion is different from yours somehow mine is not allowed.

 

 

You've made some decent points and don't let some posters get you down when it comes to posting. I like to see a different opinion and it's always good to have it here on the board.

 

I don't think anyone minds a differing opinion. The problem is he refuses to answer people when they either ask him a question or provide information that goes against his opinion. Hell, I've asked three times now where he found the rankings he refers to when he says that Roberts is the "xth ranked second baseman in all of baseball." Three times. It's an honest question (especially when that ranking changes from thread to thread), and I've yet to receive a response. I'm not asking for the meaning of life or detailed instructions on how to split an atom. I just want to know where he found his rankings. Someone else provided me a link to rankings they found, so it's obviously not that hard. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'd love to think he's not referring to fantasy rankings or simply pulling the numbers out of his rear end.

[/rant]

[CuseCubFan69]

I find it ironic that others are allowed to state their same dry opinions over & over but since my opinion is different from yours somehow mine is not allowed.

 

 

You've made some decent points and don't let some posters get you down when it comes to posting. I like to see a different opinion and it's always good to have it here on the board.

 

I don't think anyone minds a differing opinion. The problem is he refuses to answer people when they either ask him a question or provide information that goes against his opinion. Hell, I've asked three times now where he found the rankings he refers to when he says that Roberts is the "xth ranked second baseman in all of baseball." Three times. It's an honest question (especially when that ranking changes from thread to thread), and I've yet to receive a response. I'm not asking for the meaning of life or detailed instructions on how to split an atom. I just want to know where he found his rankings. Someone else provided me a link to rankings they found, so it's obviously not that hard. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'd love to think he's not referring to fantasy rankings or simply pulling the numbers out of his rear end.

[/rant]

 

If he is pulling these numbers out of his rear, do you really want to see them?

 

Maybe the ranking is his own, I don't know. Yes, it would be nice if he responded where he found this info but speaking for myself sometimes I don't remember where I read or heard it and wouldn't be able to tell you where I learned or saw this.

[wrigley23]

i find it lame that the only reason you can come up with to hit soriano ahead of a real leadoff hitter such as roberts is because "he feels better" there. I've never heard a bigger bunch of crap. Soriano is a major league baseball player and one that is paid $18 mill/yr to do his job. If you recall, he also raised a fuss about not wanting to play in the outfield not so long ago because he was a butcher at 2B. How did that work out? He also didn't want to play CF & although he did not play it well...he ended up helping out the cubs in a pinch last year. It has been a while since he has hit outside of the leadoff spot. Piniella indicated the likelihoood of him moving down is there if a move is made & soriano has said he was open to the idea if need be. I would say the maturity is more present now in his mindset now that he knows the outfield transition helped his career & a potential move to the money spot in the lineup would offer the same. Soriano hitting in roberts makes a lot more sense than the reverse. Roberts certainly gets on base far more than soriano hits leadoff home runs so please don't run out that tired argument.

[CuseCubFan69]

i find it lame that the only reason you can come up with to hit soriano ahead of a real leadoff hitter such as roberts is because "he feels better" there. I've never heard a bigger bunch of crap. Soriano is a major league baseball player and one that is paid $18 mill/yr to do his job. If you recall, he also raised a fuss about not wanting to play in the outfield not so long ago because he was a butcher at 2B. How did that work out? He also didn't want to play CF & although he did not play it well...he ended up helping out the cubs in a pinch last year. It has been a while since he has hit outside of the leadoff spot. Piniella indicated the likelihoood of him moving down is there if a move is made & soriano has said he was open to the idea if need be. I would say the maturity is more present now in his mindset now that he knows the outfield transition helped his career & a potential move to the money spot in the lineup would offer the same. Soriano hitting in roberts makes a lot more sense than the reverse. Roberts certainly gets on base far more than soriano hits leadoff home runs so please don't run out that tired argument.

 

Hey wrigley...who are you responding too?

[fromthestretch]

I find it ironic that others are allowed to state their same dry opinions over & over but since my opinion is different from yours somehow mine is not allowed.

 

 

You've made some decent points and don't let some posters get you down when it comes to posting. I like to see a different opinion and it's always good to have it here on the board.

 

I don't think anyone minds a differing opinion. The problem is he refuses to answer people when they either ask him a question or provide information that goes against his opinion. Hell, I've asked three times now where he found the rankings he refers to when he says that Roberts is the "xth ranked second baseman in all of baseball." Three times. It's an honest question (especially when that ranking changes from thread to thread), and I've yet to receive a response. I'm not asking for the meaning of life or detailed instructions on how to split an atom. I just want to know where he found his rankings. Someone else provided me a link to rankings they found, so it's obviously not that hard. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'd love to think he's not referring to fantasy rankings or simply pulling the numbers out of his rear end.

[/rant]

 

If he is pulling these numbers out of his rear, do you really want to see them?

 

Maybe the ranking is his own, I don't know. Yes, it would be nice if he responded where he found this info but speaking for myself sometimes I don't remember where I read or heard it and wouldn't be able to tell you where I learned or saw this.

 

I'd settle for hearing that rather than a non-response to three different requests for it. If he wants people to take him seriously and actually respect his opinion, responding to legitimate questions would be a good first step towards achieving that. I'm not sure how anyone can be expected to be taken seriously when they just do a drive-by posting stating the same thing over and over and over again. His statement awhile back that he isn't a professional message board poster and shouldn't need to provide anything to back up his opinion is ridiculous.

[Derwood]

i find it lame that the only reason you can come up with to hit soriano ahead of a real leadoff hitter such as roberts is because "he feels better" there. I've never heard a bigger bunch of crap. Soriano is a major league baseball player and one that is paid $18 mill/yr to do his job. If you recall, he also raised a fuss about not wanting to play in the outfield not so long ago because he was a butcher at 2B. How did that work out? He also didn't want to play CF & although he did not play it well...he ended up helping out the cubs in a pinch last year. It has been a while since he has hit outside of the leadoff spot. Piniella indicated the likelihoood of him moving down is there if a move is made & soriano has said he was open to the idea if need be. I would say the maturity is more present now in his mindset now that he knows the outfield transition helped his career & a potential move to the money spot in the lineup would offer the same. Soriano hitting in roberts makes a lot more sense than the reverse. Roberts certainly gets on base far more than soriano hits leadoff home runs so please don't run out that tired argument.

 

 

OPS > OBP

[CuseCubFan69]

Maybe the ranking is his own, I don't know. Yes, it would be nice if he responded where he found this info but speaking for myself sometimes I don't remember where I read or heard it and wouldn't be able to tell you where I learned or saw this.

 

I'd settle for hearing that rather than a non-response to three different requests for it. If he wants people to take him seriously and actually respect his opinion, responding to legitimate questions would be a good first step towards achieving that. I'm not sure how anyone can be expected to be taken seriously when they just do a drive-by posting stating the same thing over and over and over again. His statement awhile back that he isn't a professional message board poster and shouldn't need to provide anything to back up his opinion is ridiculous.

 

I have no problem with something being someones opinion. Sometimes if it is just your opinion you don't have the numbers or areas where you can pull information out of and you run out of ways to say the same thing. Imo, sometimes this board gets a little too analytical about things. I love the numbers and many of the things/stats that can be brought up regarding baseball but there are other aspects of the game as well. I do understand why you would be frustrated with someone saying the same thing over and over again though and some of us, myself included, don't really express themselves that well or in ways we want too when it comes to writing on a message board.

[fromthestretch]

Maybe the ranking is his own, I don't know. Yes, it would be nice if he responded where he found this info but speaking for myself sometimes I don't remember where I read or heard it and wouldn't be able to tell you where I learned or saw this.

 

I'd settle for hearing that rather than a non-response to three different requests for it. If he wants people to take him seriously and actually respect his opinion, responding to legitimate questions would be a good first step towards achieving that. I'm not sure how anyone can be expected to be taken seriously when they just do a drive-by posting stating the same thing over and over and over again. His statement awhile back that he isn't a professional message board poster and shouldn't need to provide anything to back up his opinion is ridiculous.

 

I have no problem with something being someones opinion. Sometimes if it is just your opinion you don't have the numbers or areas where you can pull information out of and you run out of ways to say the same thing. Imo, sometimes this board gets a little too analytical about things. I love the numbers and many of the things/stats that can be brought up regarding baseball but there are other aspects of the game as well. I do understand why you would be frustrated with someone saying the same thing over and over again though and some of us, myself included, don't really express themselves that well or in ways we want too when it comes to writing on a message board.

 

I can respect that some people aren't into statistical analysis and that some people just have a tough time expressing their opinions on a message board. I'm certainly not asking him to explain anything statistically. Just point me to the rankings he found, and I'll draw my own conclusions from it.

[WilcoFan]

You've made some decent points and don't let some posters get you down when it comes to posting. I like to see a different opinion and it's always good to have it here on the board.

 

Here's the problem: if you have an opinion that doesn't have a ton of support and is based mostly on your own biases (we all have them-I know I do), simply state your opinion and move on. Continually beating that opinion into everyone without even attempting to engage in a discussion about it is rather pointless, and no one should be surprised when people begin to react strongly to it.

 

Its one thing to have an opinion, but its a completely different matter to restate that opinion over and over without addressing any of the counterarguments. Threre have been NUMEROUS counterarguments made, from the fact that Roberts and DeRosa have almost identical numbers over the last two years to the fact that there are other holes in the lineup for which the prospects available might be used in a trade to upgrade. These counterarguments may or may not have merit, but to simply disregard any and all other arguments and essentially repost the same argument over and over again is utterly ridiculous. I think its fairly clear why people are getting annoyed with him, and it has little to do with the merits of his argument.

Edited February 26, 2008 by WilcoFan

[CuseCubFan69]

You've made some decent points and don't let some posters get you down when it comes to posting. I like to see a different opinion and it's always good to have it here on the board.

 

Here's the problem: if you have an opinion that doesn't have a ton of support and is based mostly on your own biases (we all have them-I know I do), simply state your opinion and move on. Continually beating that opinion into everyone without even attempting to engage in a discussion about it is rather pointless, and no one should be surprised when people begin to react strongly to it.

 

Its one thing to have an opinion, but its a completely different matter to restate that opinion over and over without addressing any of the counterarguments. Threre have been NUMEROUS counterarguments made, from the fact that Roberts and DeRosa have almost identical numbers over the last two years to the fact that there are other holes in the lineup for which the prospects available might be used in a trade to upgrade. These counterarguments may or may not have merit, but to simply disregard any and all other arguments and essentially repost the same argument over and over again is utterly ridiculous. I think its fairly clear why people are getting annoying with him, and it has little to do with the merits of his argument.

 

I do understand that it can be frustrating. If you feel you have made your point and the poster you made it to has the same response as they did before, maybe it's just time to move on instead of going crazy trying to make your point.

 

I do agree with omphaelos and to please let the games begin soon! I think a lot of us are getting cabin fever.

[TheGrinch]

 

 

I do understand that it can be frustrating. If you feel you have made your point and the poster you made it to has the same response as they did before, maybe it's just time to move on instead of going crazy trying to make your point.

 

I do agree with omphaelos and to please let the games begin soon! I think a lot of us are getting cabin fever.

No I'm not, you are!!!

 

I'm glad the Sammy bashing has finally come to an end. :clapping:

[CuseCubFan69]

 

 

I do understand that it can be frustrating. If you feel you have made your point and the poster you made it to has the same response as they did before, maybe it's just time to move on instead of going crazy trying to make your point.

 

I do agree with omphaelos and to please let the games begin soon! I think a lot of us are getting cabin fever.

No I'm not, you are!!!

 

I'm glad the Sammy bashing has finally come to an end. :clapping:

 

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Let's move on to bashing Candy Mountain Charlie.

[Soul]

Haha. This thread is actually a better stream of consciousness thread than, well, the stream of consciousness thread.

[wrigley23]

OBP% is published my mlb & every baseball publication in america. in regards to ops>obp...i agree...for those not hitting leadoff. Ops is certainly a better stat for the 3-6 positions. When you guys say i'm rehashing...i'm responding to a rehash from the other side. I don't post unless it is in responce to a differing opinion. yesterday, somone was saying they hoped the trade was gone for good as it is "a minor upgrade". others piled on saying the same thing. I only responded to that to give it balance. I don't state my opinions any more than the other side of the argument is stating & only in responce to it.

[Sammy Sofa]

OBP% is published my mlb & every baseball publication in america. in regards to ops>obp...i agree...for those not hitting leadoff.

 

Why not leadoff? Don't you want a leadoff hitter scoring? Well, Soriano's OPS is fueld by the big hits he gets, especially his HR's. What happens when he hits a HR? He scores. That's what we want.

[wrigley23]

right but since roberts gets on base at a higher clip, why not a 2-run homer? And if soriano whiffs like he does 25% of the time...we have two more guys who have an opportunity to drive him in.

[UMFan83]

http://www.bjacked.net/LuvToHunt/forums/phpBB2/modules/gallery/albums/album01/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg

 

I can't believe you've all been having the same discussion for the last 23 pages

[DenverCubs]

http://www.bjacked.net/LuvToHunt/forums/phpBB2/modules/gallery/albums/album01/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg

 

I can't believe you've all been having the same discussion for the last 23 pages

Yeah...watch out or some jerk might lock this thread.

[BigbadB]

I have no problem with something being someones opinion. Sometimes if it is just your opinion you don't have the numbers or areas where you can pull information out of and you run out of ways to say the same thing. Imo, sometimes this board gets a little too analytical about things. I love the numbers and many of the things/stats that can be brought up regarding baseball but there are other aspects of the game as well. I do understand why you would be frustrated with someone saying the same thing over and over again though and some of us, myself included, don't really express themselves that well or in ways we want too when it comes to writing on a message board.

 

I can respect other people's opinions, but it doesn't mean I have to buy into their opinion. I think that's what we are seeing in this thread. Some people are just a little more wound up in their responses. Wrigley23 has called our opinions on Soriano just as ridiculous as we find his posts, and that's where the infighting generates.

 

Fact: Soriano produces more runs from the lead off spot than Roberts does. Both scoring and driving them in. It doesn't matter that Roberts produces a much higher OBP than Soriano, because even with last year's difference in OBP, Soriano still scored more runs per at bat than Roberts did, and does so every year he plays.

 

Couple in the fact that Soriano produced more runs as a lead off hitter than Roberts last year with a bum leg for the back half of the season.

 

It is my belief that if Soriano is taken out of the top of the order, he will be moved all the way down to the 6th spot. If he was batting 3rd or 4th, that might be one thing, but personally, I would hate to see Soriano bat 3rd or 4th over Lee or Ramirez. And if Lou wants Fukudome to break up the lefties, that puts Soriano in the 6 spot in the order, which takes about 100 PA away from Soriano.

 

Soriano with 600 PA>>>>>>>>>>Soriano with 500 PA

 

By moving Soriano to 6th in the order opens the door for Theriot to bat 2nd. Soriano provides a better OBP than Theriot. So now you are sacrificing OBP and OPS, not to mention giving Theriot 100-150 more PA over the course of a season than he should have if he were batting 8th rather than 2nd.

 

The perfectly logical answer to all of this is to bat Soriano first followed by Roberts. With those two guys at the top of the order, you get the best of both worlds, as well as arguably one of the best 1/2 punches in MLB.

 

I do appreciate at that Wrigley23 values OBP. It's rather apparent that Lou likes it a lot more than Dusty did. The guys who can make it in the big leagues with a not so stellar OBP are guys like Soriano, who can make up for their lack of OBP with SLG. While the lack of OBP is the one thing keeping someone like Soriano from being a true superstar in this game, I don't think the answer to a Brian Roberts acquisition is moving Soriano down umpteen places in the batting order to accommodate Roberts. There is room to share some top of the order love.

 

And with that, I'm done talking about this subject, because right now Roberts anywhere in the batting order is simply a wet dream since he is currently a Baltimore Oriole.