MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[inari]

dexter...you really need to dial it down a notch. I simply don't agree w/ your assessments but the all caps & heavy handedness are really unnecessary. I don't see where OPS is all that important in the lead off spot. The goal is to get on base period & then have 2-5 knock you in. If soriano leads off w/ a double then that extra base hit is better for the team if done w/ someone on. The hang up here is the argument that soriano cannot hit w/ people on. Again, he has been a leadoff hitter for several years now so I don't buy into that argument. Beyond that, it is not what is best for him but what is best for the team. Roberts or another stronger OBP guy hitting in front of soriano makes much more sense than the reverse. This is the model used w/ nearly every other team in major league baseball. Lou is on record saying if a deal is made that soriano would move down.

 

No he's not.

[BigbadB]

I would surmise that the reason soriano scored more runs that roberts is because he was in a superior lineup.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to judge one team to have a superior line up over the other:

 

2007 Orioles runs scored as a team: 756

2007 Cubs runs scored as a team: 752

 

2007 Orioles AVG: .272

2007 Cubs AVG: .271

 

2007 Orioles OBP: .333

2007 Cubs OBP: .333

 

2007 Orioles SLG: .412

2007 Cubs SLG: .422 (switch Soriano with Roberts, and you can probably reverse the two teams SLG's)

 

2007 Orioles team hits: 1529

2007 Cubs team hits: 1530

 

2007 Orioles BB's: 500

2007 Cubs BB's: 500

 

The Cubs do have a slight advantage if we only look at the 2-6 hitters in the line up, but it's not that much of a difference. But, Soriano also drives in more runners with his bat, as well as driving himself in.

 

Soriano scored 97 times in 2007

Roberts scored 103 times in 2007

 

Soriano had 99 less plate appearances than Roberts in 2007

 

In 99 less plate appearances, Soriano drove in 13 more runs than Roberts, and Roberts had the benefit of an actual hitter batting 9th for most of the season.

[apete6]

I would surmise that the reason soriano scored more runs that roberts is because he was in a superior lineup.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to judge one team to have a superior line up over the other:

 

2007 Orioles runs scored as a team: 756

2007 Cubs runs scored as a team: 752

 

2007 Orioles AVG: .272

2007 Cubs AVG: .271

 

2007 Orioles OBP: .333

2007 Cubs OBP: .333

 

2007 Orioles SLG: .412

2007 Cubs SLG: .422 (switch Soriano with Roberts, and you can probably reverse the two teams SLG's)

 

2007 Orioles team hits: 1529

2007 Cubs team hits: 1530

 

2007 Orioles BB's: 500

2007 Cubs BB's: 500

 

The Cubs do have a slight advantage if we only look at the 2-6 hitters in the line up, but it's not that much of a difference. But, Soriano also drives in more runners with his bat, as well as driving himself in.

 

Soriano scored 97 times in 2007

Roberts scored 103 times in 2007

 

Soriano had 99 less plate appearances than Roberts in 2007

 

In 99 less plate appearances, Soriano drove in 13 more runs than Roberts, and Roberts had the benefit of an actual hitter batting 9th for most of the season.

 

Orioles also had the benefit of the DH, so the team stats are pretty much useless. You could have Neifi DH every game for an NL team and still add 75 hits/season over the pitcher.

[Sweet Swinging Billy]

Now for an update. No trade, just speculation.

[BigbadB]

The goal is to get on base period & then have 2-5 knock you in. If soriano leads off w/ a double then that extra base hit is better for the team if done w/ someone on.

 

The goal is to score runs, period.

[BigbadB]

Orioles also had the benefit of the DH, so the team stats are pretty much useless. You could have Neifi DH every game for an NL team and still add 75 hits/season over the pitcher.

 

Except for the fact that pitchers are batted for about twice a game.

 

Cubs hitters were on base 136 times (.227 OBP) in the 9th spot in the batting order.

Orioles hitters were on base 171 times (.279 OBP) in the 9th spot in the batting order.

 

And Soriano is much better at driving in those bottom of the order hitters than Roberts is.

 

The thing I like about Soriano batting first is it guarantees one of the better hitters on the team gets the most at bats. And when you work your way through the bottom of the order, if you do happen to get one of the weaker parts of the line up to get on base, you don't have to wait until Lee comes to the plate in hopes someone can drive those guys in. Soriano can do it.

 

13 more RBI's than Roberts last year in 99 less at bats with a weaker group of hitters hitting in front of him. Granted, Soriano had 21 more home runs than Roberts, so more than the RBI difference is from hitting himself in, but strengthen the bottom of the order and the Cubs might find themselves in the unique situation of having a 100 RBI guy hitting first in the line up.

[wrigley23]

agreed & i think hitting roberts in front of soriano would do just that.

[17 Seconds]

dexter...you really need to dial it down a notch. I simply don't agree w/ your assessments but the all caps & heavy handedness are really unnecessary. I don't see where OPS is all that important in the lead off spot. The goal is to get on base period & then have 2-5 knock you in. If soriano leads off w/ a double then that extra base hit is better for the team if done w/ someone on. The hang up here is the argument that soriano cannot hit w/ people on. Again, he has been a leadoff hitter for several years now so I don't buy into that argument. Beyond that, it is not what is best for him but what is best for the team. Roberts or another stronger OBP guy hitting in front of soriano makes much more sense than the reverse. This is the model used w/ nearly every other team in major league baseball. Lou is on record saying if a deal is made that soriano would move down.

 

Ok, I didn't read most of this post because I'm sick of your nonsense and refusal to acknowledge facts, but I saw the bolded part because someone else highlighted it and responded to it.

 

Why do you continue to lie even though I've called you out on it multiple times? I've heard the interview you're referring to and Lou never said that, so stop saying he did. What he said was the same thing he's been saying all along: that he's consider moving Soriano down if they made a trade. Please stop making things up.

 

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Lou anyways.

[wrigley23]

why? because he's the manager of the team in question here. I heard what i heard. I've even listened to it again & stand by my statement. What is with the hostility towards me? I'd suggest you get it dialed down as it's very unflattering.

[inari]

why? because he's the manager of the team in question here. I heard what i heard. I've even listened to it again & stand by my statement. What is with the hostility towards me? I'd suggest you get it dialed down as it's very unflattering.

 

I'd guess the hostility stems from the fact you're flat out making things up to support your argument. Lou didn't say that he'd move Soriano down, yet you've repeated it umpteen times now. You heard what you wanted to hear, but it wasn't what he said.

[wrigley23]

he specifically brought it up. you think he brought it up just to do the opposite?

[17 Seconds]

why? because he's the manager of the team in question here.

 

You're using Lou as a crutch to make it seem like your opinions are more valid. "Oh, well if Lou thinks it's a good idea, then it obviously is! He knows more than any of us!" is basically what you're trying to do.

 

I heard what i heard. I've even listened to it again & stand by my statement. What is with the hostility towards me? I'd suggest you get it dialed down as it's very unflattering.

 

 

Because you continue to flat out lie. You tried ignoring it until I asked you for the third time, when you finally had to acknowledge it. Lou never said that, and other people have heard the same thing that I did. When you lie about something and then refuse to admit it when you're caught, it tends to aggravate people. Not to mention the whole refusing to acknowledge other points thing as well. The moderator already wanred you about this and you coninute to do it. When we respond to you, we make counter arguments about claims you made. When you respond to us, you say the same things over and over and over again, while refusing to acknowledge the points we made. It's like arguing with a little kid: "LALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING. I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALA".

[wrigley23]

I am not keeping a post by post comparison so that we can determine a winner. If you are, good luck to you on that. I've read your posts & i disagree w/ most of them. I do not directly respond to them as I work for a living, have kids & quite frankly am just as tired of hearing your nonsense. I'm quite certain many others are tired of your bullying as well. You are not a moderator so i'd quit speaking for them if i were you. The difference between you and I (other than our leadoff opinions) are that I do this without the name calling & bullying. You have started grasping for straws & fighting unfairly. I firmly believe my position in terms of getting roberts & batting him leadoff. I heard what i heard from piniella & i could care less what you think you heard. I guarantee you roberts would lead off if he came to the cubs. I really hope it happens as evidently that is what it would take to shut you up.

[17 Seconds]

I am not keeping a post by post comparison so that we can determine a winner. If you are, good luck to you on that. I've read your posts & i disagree w/ most of them. I do not directly respond to them as I work for a living, have kids & quite frankly am just as tired of hearing your nonsense. I'm quite certain many others are tired of your bullying as well. You are not a moderator so i'd quit speaking for them if i were you. The difference between you and I (other than our leadoff opinions) are that I do this without the name calling & bullying. You have started grasping for straws & fighting unfairly. I firmly believe my position in terms of getting roberts & batting him leadoff. I heard what i heard from piniella & i could care less what you think you heard. I guarantee you roberts would lead off if he came to the cubs. I really hope it happens as evidently that is what it would take to shut you up.

 

Seriously, are you joking? Grasping for straws? How am I grasping for straws? Almost everyone else disagrees with you. Are facts "grasping for straws"? That sounds ridiculous to me. Fighting unfairly? Are you joking? You blatantly lie repeatedly, I call it out, and that means I'm "fighting unfairly"? Where do you come up with this stuff? And the "I have kids and work for a living" stuff is nonsense as well. What does that have to do with anything? Does that make it okay to lie? Does that make it okay to repeatedly say things and then fail to back it up?

 

You guarantee it? Okay, then what sort of compensation are you going to offer me if that doesn't come true? If you can't somehow compensate me, then you're making a prediction and not a guarantee. I seriously think you need to listen to that interview again, because Lou never said that. If he did, why don't you listen again and type word for word what he said, so we can judge it ourselves? Oh, because "you have kids and work for a living", so you don't have time. Right. I'd say there's about a 50/50 chance Soriano would be moved down if they ended up getting Roberts, and I think the odds are only that good because of Soriano's leg problems. If I had to bet, I'd still say that Roberts would bat second and Soriano leadoff. However, I'm reasonable enough to know that I can't make some sort of ridiculous guarantee as if I know for sure, because none of us know that. I also know that I won't lie about what Lou said just to make my point seem more valid.

 

How did I speak for a moderator? All I did was remind you to what HE said.

 

As for disagreeing with that I've said, then fine. The thing is, you never make counter arguments. You act like you can't hear anything and then jump to other statements instead of carrying on a discussion, all the while claiming it's because you "don't have time", which we all know is just an excuse, since you clearly have enough time to post repeatedly.

 

These are a few of the reasons why most of this board doesn't take you seriously and either a)make fun of you, or b)ignore you. As for me, I think it's time for letter B. As others have said in the past week, congratulations for being the first person that has ever made me feel inclinced to use the ignore feature. I'm sure I won't be the last. Have a nice life.

Edited February 27, 2008 by 17 Seconds

[Derwood]

The hang up here is the argument that soriano cannot hit w/ people on. Again, he has been a leadoff hitter for several years now so I don't buy into that argument. Beyond that, it is not what is best for him but what is best for the team.

 

i'm pretty sure you don't read anyone's responses, but i'll say this again:

 

CAREER

 

w/ bases empty: .868 OPS

w/ men on: .803 OPS

w/ RISP: .770 OPS

w/ 2 outs, RISP: .745 OPS

1st inning: .922 OPS

9th inning: .748 OPS

 

so i'm not sure why you "don't buy" that he doesn't hit well with runners on, when THERE ARE THE NUMBERS IN BLACK AND WHITE

 

also, since he DOESN'T hit as well lower in the order, i'm not sure why you think him doing so would "be in the team's best interest"

[17 Seconds]

I can't figure out why he doesn't understand that whatever is best for Soriano's performance is also best for the team.

 

Guess what? Soriano is on the team.

[Rob]

If we all just put him on ignore, we don't have to listen to him espousing nonsense like those maniacs on street corners screaming that the world is coming to an end.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

If we all just put him on ignore, we don't have to listen to him espousing nonsense like those maniacs on street corners screaming that the world is coming to an end.

I can't believe more people haven't already

[anabiono]

we should just rename this thread the dexter and wrigley show

[wrigley23]

this particular thread is about speculating if roberts comes to the cubs. I feel that Obp is the far & away best stat to look at when considering who a leadoff hitter should be followed by a smart baserunner, ability to steal. Roberts clearly has the advantage of getting on base over soriano. Soriano also has a clear edge in driving in runs. So...what it comes down to is...would soriano reverse his fortunes from the past by hitting more consistently in the 3-hole? 5-hole? yes...i think he would. I also think that is best for the Chicago Cubs. I don't see Roberts walking soriano around the bases if soriano singles to lead off the game. I see roberts walking or singling & then soriano or someone else hitting him in more likely. that is my opinion. you have yours. Again, I have only brought it up when someone else has beat the roberts leading off drum or bagging on roberts as a "slight upgrade" or "we don't need him" stuff. I don't feel the need to respond to each & every stat thrown out because I think a majority of it either is not relevant or is not a direct correlation. The soriano not hitting in the clutch is valid & i dispute it because it was several years ago & for a different team w/ a different lineup. I feel soriano has matured as a person & player by giving up 2B & agreeing to play in the OF. there was a time he had a real hangup w/ that. Guess what, he got over it & became a better player. Now, with his leg issues that he had all of last year & now into this year...plus the possible addition of a great leadoff hitter per OBP stats in roberts...it only makes sense to see if it would improve & help balance the lineup.

 

Roberts lh

soriano rh

fuko lh

lee rh

aram rh

 

I love the potential w/ the first six slots.

[WilcoFan]

I don't feel the need to respond to each & every stat thrown out because I think a majority of it either is not relevant or is not a direct correlation.

 

"Facts? Who needs facts! You can use facts to prove almost anything that's even remotely true!"

--Homer Simpson

[Post Count Padder]

So I heard from that guy again. Apparantly the O's have decided on a good package but the Roberts trade is on hold because Roberts wants a divorce from Angelos and Angleos won't sign the papers. Stay tuned.

[Outshined_One]

So I heard from that guy again. Apparantly the O's have decided on a good package but the Roberts trade is on hold because Roberts wants a divorce from Angelos and Angleos won't sign the papers. Stay tuned.

 

Alimony time!

 

:yahoo:

[Derwood]

I don't feel the need to respond to each & every stat thrown out because I think a majority of it either is not relevant or is not a direct correlation. The soriano not hitting in the clutch is valid & i dispute it because it was several years ago & for a different team w/ a different lineup.

 

and this is everyone's problem with you. I gave you CAREER stats, meaning Yankees/Rangers/Nationals/Cubs, showing pretty clearly that Soriano does not, in fact, hit well with runners on.

 

Do I need to give you the numbers from last year? Fine.

 

2007 WITH THE CUBS

 

w/ bases empty: .937 OPS

w/ men on: .814 OPS

w/ RISP: .827 OPS

w/ 2 outs, RISP: .872 OPS

1st inning: 1.038 OPS

9th inning: .597 OPS

[Outshined_One]

Life is suddenly better with the "Foe" button.