MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[David]

Ah. So what makes Greene a strikeout machine instead of a strikeout king like the guys on the Cubs?

[David]

That really would've made more sense if it had been on the same page as wrigley23's post.

[third eye]

Greene is a strikeout machine & beyond that, we are in dire need of players that get on base instead of strikeout. Soriano is needed much more down in the order & Roberts is a great leadoff hitter from getting on to stealing bases. Theriot is another guy that finds a way to get on base. DeRosa is a great utility player & makes the Cub better.

 

 

Yikes, I can only imagine the slew of responses that is likely to follow. I joined the board a little over a year ago and am pretty sure I had a similar thought process back then. But I came to understand a few things better here. Might want to check out some of the baseball discussions that lay out the cold facts about strikeouts/stolen bases/Theriot's status as "team MVP".

Edited January 4, 2008 by third eye

[BigbadB]

while in San Diego and Cleveland they'd be role players and only 1-2 of them might have a chance to develop.

 

Cleveland, Yes. San Diego, No.

 

San Diego currently has Brian Giles, Jim Edmonds and Scott Hairston penciled into the outfield, and not much of a bench behind those guys. It's rumored that they may move Chase Headley to LF and have him platoon with Hairston, but you still have some major question marks with Giles and Edmonds health.

 

The Padres did sign Tadahito Iguchi to play 2b, but there would still be room for Patterson to back him up and play CF when Edmonds is on the DL.

 

Also, the Padres have a pretty solid front 4 with Peavy, Young, Maddux and Wolf, but the 5th spot right now is up for grabs for a bunch of rehab projects. Gallagher could slot right in there ahead of Estes, Rusch, Prior and Germano. Gallagher, Patterson and Fox would be good fits for San Diego, and Murton is fairly comparable to Scott Hairston, so not so much. But, San Diego would want Cedeno since they don't really have anyone decent to play SS if they did trade Greene. I don't think he's going anywhere anyway.

[Soul]

Greene is a strikeout machine & beyond that, we are in dire need of players that get on base instead of strikeout. Soriano is needed much more down in the order & Roberts is a great leadoff hitter from getting on to stealing bases. Theriot is another guy that finds a way to get on base. DeRosa is a great utility player & makes the Cub better.

 

 

Yikes, I can only imagine the slew of responses that are likely to follow. I joined the board a little over a year ago and am pretty sure I had a similar thought process back then. Might want to check out some of the baseball discussions that lay out the cold facts about strikeouts/stolen bases/Theriot's status as "team MVP".

 

It is interesting to see how perception and reality often differs on a player. I believe I have been guilty of the same thing a few times :oops:

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Greene is a strikeout machine & beyond that, we are in dire need of players that get on base instead of strikeout. Soriano is needed much more down in the order & Roberts is a great leadoff hitter from getting on to stealing bases. Theriot is another guy that finds a way to get on base. DeRosa is a great utility player & makes the Cub better.

what would you say if I told you I had evidence to suggest that Theriot does not, in fact, find a way to get on base all that well?

[CubinNY]

Greene is a strikeout machine & beyond that, we are in dire need of players that get on base instead of strikeout. Soriano is needed much more down in the order & Roberts is a great leadoff hitter from getting on to stealing bases. Theriot is another guy that finds a way to get on base. DeRosa is a great utility player & makes the Cub better.

what would you say if I told you I had evidence to suggest that Theriot does not, in fact, find a way to get on base all that well?

Inconceivable!

[MidoreX]

Greene is a strikeout machine & beyond that, we are in dire need of players that get on base instead of strikeout. Soriano is needed much more down in the order & Roberts is a great leadoff hitter from getting on to stealing bases. Theriot is another guy that finds a way to get on base. DeRosa is a great utility player & makes the Cub better.

what would you say if I told you I had evidence to suggest that Theriot does not, in fact, find a way to get on base all that well?

Inconceivable!

 

http://67.59.184.41/5/3/listings/wallace_shawn.jpg

[SAMMYWHO]

Theriot has one of the best "eye's" on the team but is really disappointing when a pitcher challenges him and makes him swing the bat. That's why he should be down in the order because you should rarely walk the 2 hole hitter when you got the big bats coming up with men on.

[Backtobanks]

I still think the Cubs could use the players mentioned in the Roberts trade to pry loose either Greene from SD or Peralta from Cleveland

 

In the extremely unlikely event you can make that happen, do it.

 

That's about the way I feel. Of course I'd love to have Greene or Peralta more than Roberts. San Diego and Cleveland are going to demand a lot more talent than what is being offered in the Roberts deal though. The only reason the Cubs can get Roberts for that price is that Baltimore can afford to play all 3 players and see if they develop. That adds value to all of them, while in San Diego and Cleveland they'd be role players and only 1-2 of them might have a chance to develop.

 

These are the players on the Cubs that I consider trade bait:

Murton, Marshall, Gallagher, Pignatello, Cotts, Marquis, Dempster, Patterson, Cedeno, Veal, Fox, and whoever else I forgot. We might have to overpay or get a third team involved (see "Rumblings about Snell's availability"), but I can't believe Hendry can't put a package together to interest SD, Cleveland, or a third team in a 3-way trade.

[wrigley23]

maybe because hendry is not interested in those players? maybe he prefers roberts as I do?

[RammyFanny]

maybe because hendry is not interested in those players? maybe he prefers roberts as I do?

Do you think Theriot gets on base very good?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Greene is a strikeout machine & beyond that, we are in dire need of players that get on base instead of strikeout. Soriano is needed much more down in the order & Roberts is a great leadoff hitter from getting on to stealing bases. Theriot is another guy that finds a way to get on base. DeRosa is a great utility player & makes the Cub better.

 

These things are not mutually exclusive, in fact, they're closer to being correlated. 6 of the top 10 players in K's last year had OBP's above .385.

[wrigley23]

fading off the point. I do not like Soriano at leadoff. I think Roberts is one of the best in MLB. We were short a bat or two last year so w/ Fuko added as well as moving sori down in the order & an on base machine/base stealer added at the top in Roberts than I think we've improved immensely. Not to mention soto's bat, more healthy dlee & move theriot down to 8th as he has a good eye at the plate. I agree we need another quality starter & I am not confident yet we have a true closer to feel comfortable with.

[MSG T]

fading off the point. I do not like Soriano at leadoff. I think Roberts is one of the best in MLB. We were short a bat or two last year so w/ Fuko added as well as moving sori down in the order & an on base machine/base stealer added at the top in Roberts than I think we've improved immensely. Not to mention soto's bat, more healthy dlee & move theriot down to 8th as he has a good eye at the plate. I agree we need another quality starter & I am not confident yet we have a true closer to feel comfortable with.

 

 

If the Cubs make no more moves this offseason, I'll be pretty confident in our pitching staff, assuming Z, Lilly, Hill, Marshall and Marquis are the starting 5 and Dempster is back in the bullpen. I also don't have a problem with the lineup, assuming Pie is in it and Theriot isn't, I'd rather have Ronny start 150 games than Theriot, again assuming there's no further changes.

 

If there are further changes, the first change needs to be a SS that can hit. Greene or Peralta would be great. I'd only acquire Roberts if he or DeRo is moved to SS, I don't particularly care if either can play SS at anything above below average. Having DeRo on the bench as a super-sub while Theriot gets 500-600 ABs is asinine.

[DenverCubs]

To me it would be nice to hear officially that Hendry is looking for another starter. If Hendry is content with Dempster in the rotation, as I think he is, we're in trouble. So if we have to trade away 1 or 2 young guys who could take that fifth spot when Demp sucks ass for a small upgrade at 2nd, we lose. If we get Roberts AND somehow still have a few options in the rotation other that Dempter and Marquis, it would be a good day.

I feel like one bad starting pitcher is worse than one not so above average 2nd baseman. Am I wrong?

[Sammy Sofa]

move theriot down to 8th as he has a good eye at the plate

 

Yes, the guy who took fewer pitches than anyone else on the team has a "good eye at the plate."

[Ding Dong Johnson]

move theriot down to 8th as he has a good eye at the plate

 

Yes, the guy who took fewer pitches than anyone else on the team has a "good eye at the plate."

never let facts get in the way of a good argument

[JimSorgi]

I have a bad feeling we're going to give up way too much in this trade.

[Skyballer]

Greene is a strikeout machine & beyond that, we are in dire need of players that get on base instead of strikeout. Soriano is needed much more down in the order & Roberts is a great leadoff hitter from getting on to stealing bases. Theriot is another guy that finds a way to get on base. DeRosa is a great utility player & makes the Cub better.

Wrigley, let's talk. Theriot isn't good at getting on base, don't be fooled like I was, look at his OBP!!!!! He's a really nice option at super-sub, that's it!

[BigbadB]

Greene is a strikeout machine & beyond that, we are in dire need of players that get on base instead of strikeout. Soriano is needed much more down in the order & Roberts is a great leadoff hitter from getting on to stealing bases. Theriot is another guy that finds a way to get on base. DeRosa is a great utility player & makes the Cub better.

Wrigley, let's talk. Theriot isn't good at getting on base, don't be fooled like I was, look at his OBP!!!!! He's a really nice option at super-sub, that's it!

 

Theriot would not be a really nice option at super-sub. Theriot would be "okay" as a utility player.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

move theriot down to 8th as he has a good eye at the plate

 

Yes, the guy who took fewer pitches than anyone else on the team has a "good eye at the plate."

never let facts get in the way of a good argument

 

They don't have to be mutually exclusive. Theriot can have a very discriminating eye, but at the same time not see too many pitches because he doesn't have the pop to make pitchers pay, so they pound the strike zone against him.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

move theriot down to 8th as he has a good eye at the plate

 

Yes, the guy who took fewer pitches than anyone else on the team has a "good eye at the plate."

never let facts get in the way of a good argument

 

They don't have to be mutually exclusive. Theriot can have a very discriminating eye, but at the same time not see too many pitches because he doesn't have the pop to make pitchers pay, so they pound the strike zone against him.

correct, but this is not the only "inaccurate" description from the same person regarding Theriot's value

[jersey cubs fan]

move theriot down to 8th as he has a good eye at the plate

 

Yes, the guy who took fewer pitches than anyone else on the team has a "good eye at the plate."

never let facts get in the way of a good argument

 

They don't have to be mutually exclusive. Theriot can have a very discriminating eye, but at the same time not see too many pitches because he doesn't have the pop to make pitchers pay, so they pound the strike zone against him.

 

And at the same time, you can have a discriminating eye, but still employ an overly aggressive approach at the plate. Weak hitters with patience can still see multiple pitches. Pitchers may not be afraid of him, but they are still going to try to get the guy out on their pitches, and he lets them.

[Schwarber Fan]

Almost 70 pages about Brian Roberts.

 

wow.