MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[Butterscup1679666578]

I'm fine with giving up Marshall because he seems lost in the shuffle with this organization. I like him a lot but I'd rather trade him than Gallagher. Unfortunately we're going to give up both, which sucks.

[badnews]

If we're going to pay these kinds of prices we'd have been better off getting Swisher or Renteria.

 

I notice other teams don't necessarily just give guys away because they're lost in the organizational shuffle. For example, the Phillies and Astros used Mike Constanzo, a guy pretty much going nowhere, as a chip in actually *useful* trades. While the Cubs used Scott Moore, a superior player to Constanzo, as one of three players in an utterly useless 1 month trade.

 

This organization is just gettng exponentially dumber. I wouldn't be surprised if the final proposal was Gallagher, Colvin, Ceda, and somebody like Wellington Castillo or Mitch Atkins, and we get some of those wonderful 5,000 word essays in which the trade is championed because "we didn't give up anyone we really need." Which was the benchmark used by some people for the Trachsel trade, or the Kendall trade.

 

Instead of this benchmark, how about an alternative one: Trades that don't look like crap compared to good trades other teams are making? Trades that don't just look good compared to Brian Sabean's history?

[rawaction]

Yeah, Murton, Patterson, Gallagher is a lot better than Cedeno, Gallagher, Marshall. I hate the idea of trading Gallagher and Marshall in the same deal. For one, you give a team 2 potential back of the rotation starters for the immediate future and I believe they are the Cubs biggest bargaining chips because cheap, ML ready, pitching is valuable. For two, the pretty much means you have to put Dempster in the rotation, because you just gave up 2 of your 5th starter options, without getting one back. (I guess you still have Kevin Hart, but he's a long shot to be the 5th)

[RammyFanny]

O's insider (BigBird):

 

 

It will most likely be a Cedeno, Gallagher, and Marshall with a good chance of it getting done in the next few days. We are trying to get them to take Payton in the deal and include Murton but that's probably not going to happen.

 

I know everyone will continue the skepticism of them, but don't act like you're not interested :wink:

 

Personally, people will probably complain about Marshall being included as well, but he's nothing more than a number 4 starter at best. We can find back of the rotation guys that will be similar, and let's face it, he's probably not in our rotation anyways next season. Even with his good year last season, his WHIP was still going to be in the 1.40 range and he was on pace for giving up a bunch of homers. I'd rather do this deal than the Murton/Patterson one.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

By biggest complaint of including both Gallagher and Marshall is that we'll have no depth for the rotation when Marquis and Dempster throw a big pile of crap on the mound. While Marshall may not be too much in himself, combined with Gallagher is huge. I'm not liking this deal at all unless Hendry signs someone (Colon maybe) to add some depth to the rotation.

[CUBZ99]

By biggest complaint of including both Gallagher and Marshall is that we'll have no depth for the rotation when Marquis and Dempster throw a big pile of crap on the mound. While Marshall may not be too much in himself, combined with Gallagher is huge. I'm not liking this deal at all unless Hendry signs someone (Colon maybe) to add some depth to the rotation.

 

I agree, that is a big gamble to trade away Gallagher and Marshall. This deal just keeps getting worse for the Cubs. Hendry would be better off just sticking with Derosa at 2B, as the marginal improvement that Roberts provides isn't worth the price.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

By biggest complaint of including both Gallagher and Marshall is that we'll have no depth for the rotation when Marquis and Dempster throw a big pile of crap on the mound. While Marshall may not be too much in himself, combined with Gallagher is huge. I'm not liking this deal at all unless Hendry signs someone (Colon maybe) to add some depth to the rotation.

 

I agree, that is a big gamble to trade away Gallagher and Marshall. This deal just keeps getting worse for the Cubs. Hendry would be better off just sticking with Derosa at 2B, as the marginal improvement that Roberts provides isn't worth the price.

 

Yep. I don't get the need to get Roberts at any cost. If the price were right, maybe. But, at this point it seems cost prohibitive to get him.

[Post Count Padder]

Once again, I'd love Roberts on this team, I just don't like giving up both Gallagher and Marshall.

[CUBZ99]

By biggest complaint of including both Gallagher and Marshall is that we'll have no depth for the rotation when Marquis and Dempster throw a big pile of crap on the mound. While Marshall may not be too much in himself, combined with Gallagher is huge. I'm not liking this deal at all unless Hendry signs someone (Colon maybe) to add some depth to the rotation.

 

I agree, that is a big gamble to trade away Gallagher and Marshall. This deal just keeps getting worse for the Cubs. Hendry would be better off just sticking with Derosa at 2B, as the marginal improvement that Roberts provides isn't worth the price.

 

Yep. I don't get the need to get Roberts at any cost. If the price were right, maybe. But, at this point it seems cost prohibitive to get him.

 

And one can only hope that Hendry doesn't get duped into adding Murton for Payton. ](*,)

[CubColtPacer]

By biggest complaint of including both Gallagher and Marshall is that we'll have no depth for the rotation when Marquis and Dempster throw a big pile of crap on the mound. While Marshall may not be too much in himself, combined with Gallagher is huge. I'm not liking this deal at all unless Hendry signs someone (Colon maybe) to add some depth to the rotation.

 

Agreed. If no arm is added, then it clearly becomes a bad deal. If the Cubs get another option for the back end of the rotation, then it probably is a pretty good deal in large part because the Cubs probably wouldn't play either Marshall or Cedeno.

[Guest]

O's insider (BigBird):

 

 

It will most likely be a Cedeno, Gallagher, and Marshall with a good chance of it getting done in the next few days. We are trying to get them to take Payton in the deal and include Murton but that's probably not going to happen.

 

I know everyone will continue the skepticism of them, but don't act like you're not interested :wink:

 

Personally, people will probably complain about Marshall being included as well, but he's nothing more than a number 4 starter at best. We can find back of the rotation guys that will be similar, and let's face it, he's probably not in our rotation anyways next season. Even with his good year last season, his WHIP was still going to be in the 1.40 range and he was on pace for giving up a bunch of homers. I'd rather do this deal than the Murton/Patterson one.

 

What an awful trade that would be.

[inari]

I just don't get what Mark DeRosa has to do to keep his job safe.

[RammyFanny]

I would say with just about 100% certainty we would add another starter. Whether or not it's a good starter, I don't know, but it's already been said that Lou is very hesitant on Dempster in the rotation, so i'm sure him and Jim have something else in store. Keep in mind if the rumored deal happened, we still have Murton and EPatt to use in trade bait while only trading a whopping one prospect in the previous deal.

[Guest]

I would say with just about 100% certainty we would add another starter. Whether or not it's a good starter, I don't know, but it's already been said that Lou is very hesitant on Dempster in the rotation, so i'm sure him and Jim have something else in store. Keep in mind if the rumored deal happened, we still have Murton and EPatt to use in trade bait while only trading a whopping one prospect in the previous deal.

 

Eric Patterson doesn't have much trade value right now. While Marshall isn't a prospect anymore, his value is really high...it's quite a bit to give up for an improvement at an already steady position (giving up two potential starters and our only hedge against a full year of Theriot at SS).

[b_wiggy_66]

I dont like this trade either. We still have a hole at SS and Derosa cannot play there everyday. The only reason I would want this is if it will get Lou to move Soriano out of the leadoff spot. Otherwise I think we are not doing anything to improve the team that much.

[Schwarber Fan]

I just don't get what Mark DeRosa has to do to keep his job safe.

 

Not hit into a 6-4-3 double play in the most crucial spot of the playoffs.

[BigbadB]

I was on board for a deal that brought Roberts, but I liked the originally rumored deals much better than I like these current rumors. I like Murton, but he's a 4th outfielder on this current roster and not expected to see much playing time with the likes of Kosuke and Soriano manning the corner outfield spots and DeRosa supposedly handling super sub/ph duties. Patterson is not a significant loss to the major league club, either, considering the depth the organization has in CF. Gallagher hurts, but we would still have Marshall to stick in the rotation.

 

This latest proposal makes no sense. First off, Murton for Payton is just plain stupid. Murton is more valuable than Payton and he makes less money. Cedeno is currently my #1 option at SS going into '08 if Cubs management refuses to let DeRosa play there. We have zero depth at SS if Cedeno is traded, and I have nothing good to say about Alex Cintron as a veteran back up. Trading Gallagher AND Marshall is beyond stupid as well. Basically, the depth of the rotation would be wiped out, and I'm not really sold that we even have any depth in the rotation with both of them still with the club.

 

As has been pointed out numerous times, Roberts would be a slight upgrade to DeRosa at 2nd. DeRosa strengthens the bench significantly, so overall adding Roberts wouldn't be the worse idea ever. I'd like it even more if DeRosa would be considered for SS. But, when you deal away talent for improvements to your team, you deal from your strengths not from your weaknesses. Currently, the starting rotation and shortstop are weaknesses and would be weakened even further by removing these parts.

 

If that's the proposed deal, I'd pass. Cedeno at SS, DeRosa at 2nd and one of Gallagher or Marshall in the rotation is better than Roberts at 2nd, Theriot at SS and some crappy veteran high risk low reward has been starting pitcher occupying the 5th rotation slot.

[RammyFanny]

I would say with just about 100% certainty we would add another starter. Whether or not it's a good starter, I don't know, but it's already been said that Lou is very hesitant on Dempster in the rotation, so i'm sure him and Jim have something else in store. Keep in mind if the rumored deal happened, we still have Murton and EPatt to use in trade bait while only trading a whopping one prospect in the previous deal.

 

Eric Patterson doesn't have much trade value right now. While Marshall isn't a prospect anymore, his value is really high...it's quite a bit to give up for an improvement at an already steady position (giving up two potential starters and our only hedge against a full year of Theriot at SS).

You don't think Beane might take the slightest of interest in Murton or Patterson (considering they might deal Ellis, and Beane isn't crazy about defense)?

[Butterscup1679666578]

I just don't get what Mark DeRosa has to do to keep his job safe.

 

Not hit into a 6-4-3 double play in the most crucial spot of the playoffs.

 

I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic, because DeRosa is hardly the only one to blame for that awful postseason appearance.

[SouthSideRyan]

I would say with just about 100% certainty we would add another starter. Whether or not it's a good starter, I don't know, but it's already been said that Lou is very hesitant on Dempster in the rotation, so i'm sure him and Jim have something else in store. Keep in mind if the rumored deal happened, we still have Murton and EPatt to use in trade bait while only trading a whopping one prospect in the previous deal.

 

Eric Patterson doesn't have much trade value right now. While Marshall isn't a prospect anymore, his value is really high...it's quite a bit to give up for an improvement at an already steady position (giving up two potential starters and our only hedge against a full year of Theriot at SS).

You don't think Beane might take the slightest of interest in Murton or Patterson (considering they might deal Ellis, and Beane isn't crazy about defense)?

 

Yeah, they've kept Mark Kotsay around for his awesome bat.

[RammyFanny]

I have no clue how legit this guy is, but he posted this on the PSD Cubs forum awhile before BigBird made that comment:

Hey guys, got some news from my contact within the organization.

 

Once again, I don't like to do this, so thats why I am not making a new thread.

 

FWIW

 

My guy says that the current deal for Roberts is Cedeno, Gallagher, and Marshall. The reason it has stalled is because they wanted to add another player(speculate all you want, my guy didn't know), but the deal should be done anytime now. I also confirmed it with another guy on the orioles hangout website via PM.

 

Once again, take this with a grain of salt.

 

FWIW

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173758&page=19

[RammyFanny]

I would say with just about 100% certainty we would add another starter. Whether or not it's a good starter, I don't know, but it's already been said that Lou is very hesitant on Dempster in the rotation, so i'm sure him and Jim have something else in store. Keep in mind if the rumored deal happened, we still have Murton and EPatt to use in trade bait while only trading a whopping one prospect in the previous deal.

 

Eric Patterson doesn't have much trade value right now. While Marshall isn't a prospect anymore, his value is really high...it's quite a bit to give up for an improvement at an already steady position (giving up two potential starters and our only hedge against a full year of Theriot at SS).

You don't think Beane might take the slightest of interest in Murton or Patterson (considering they might deal Ellis, and Beane isn't crazy about defense)?

 

Yeah, they've kept Mark Kotsay around for his awesome bat.

I'm sure teams were dying to add his 8 million salary to their payroll. I'm sure you've read the book, Beane will sacrifice defense for certain hitting characteristics.

Edited January 7, 2008 by RammyFanny

[Brian]

I just don't get what Mark DeRosa has to do to keep his job safe.

 

become a starting pitcher?

[RammyFanny]

From the PSD guy (again, I have no clue who he is or how legit he is):

1. They are pretty much just sorting everything out, and working a few minor details out. Apparently we don't really want Payton if it's going to cost us Murton, so in my sources opinion, this trade will be done within the next few days. The organization definetely wants Roberts to be at the Cubs Convention, just to hype things up a bit more.

 

2. It could be anytime from now, or the end of the week. My source says probably within a few days.

 

3. Angelos has accepted the fact that they need to rebuild the Orioles franchise, and is ok about it. I don't think this will hit a snag, unless we try to expand and get Bedard involved. But that most likely will not happen. Over the weekend, Roberts apparently talked to his agent to get things to hurry up... Thats why everything has heated up.

 

On Orioles hangout, last week, an insider said that a player on the O's talked to his agent to get the "drama" settled soon, though most of them thought it was Bedard or Mora. Maybe he's onto something.

 

He also said that the Leiber interest isn't true, and we're looking to add a pitcher through trade (though that doesn't take a brain surgent to realize).

Most likely via trade. If the Angels acquire their Thirdbaseman, expect more Figgins talk. If we acquired him, Pie becomes expendable for a pitcher. If Bedard is still around, we could get involved with Baltimore again.

 

Macphail covets Pie.

[CubColtPacer]

I would say with just about 100% certainty we would add another starter. Whether or not it's a good starter, I don't know, but it's already been said that Lou is very hesitant on Dempster in the rotation, so i'm sure him and Jim have something else in store. Keep in mind if the rumored deal happened, we still have Murton and EPatt to use in trade bait while only trading a whopping one prospect in the previous deal.

 

Eric Patterson doesn't have much trade value right now. While Marshall isn't a prospect anymore, his value is really high...it's quite a bit to give up for an improvement at an already steady position (giving up two potential starters and our only hedge against a full year of Theriot at SS).

You don't think Beane might take the slightest of interest in Murton or Patterson (considering they might deal Ellis, and Beane isn't crazy about defense)?

 

Yeah, they've kept Mark Kotsay around for his awesome bat.

I'm sure teams were dying to add his 8 million salary to their payroll. I'm sure you've read the book, Beane will sacrifice defense for certain hitting characteristics.

 

Beane has also come out in interviews and said that his recent teams have been specifically built around starting pitching and defense. I don't think Beane ignores defense that much.

 

At the same time, if Beane thinks Patterson can be had for cheap, I'm sure he'll come calling. He's willing to sacrifice defense if he can get somebody for less than he thinks they're worth.

Edited January 7, 2008 by CubColtPacer