How much are so many Cub fans overrating Ryan Theriot?

[jersey cubs fan]

Theriot is not good in any way shape or form, but he is adequate if he's still making minimum wage. The day he starts making money is the day he loses any value. If the Cubs solidify other spots this offseason, I'm fine with Theriot starting at SS and hitting 8th. But they clearly need to improve offensively, and if they can find that improvement at SS, I'd be more than happy to see Theriot move back to a utility role.

[VanceJergins]

Theriot is not good in any way shape or form, but he is adequate if he's still making minimum wage. The day he starts making money is the day he loses any value. If the Cubs solidify other spots this offseason, I'm fine with Theriot starting at SS and hitting 8th. But they clearly need to improve offensively, and if they can find that improvement at SS, I'd be more than happy to see Theriot move back to a utility role.

 

Exactly. And what seems to be missing from a lot of the Eckstein comparisons is that he is making about $4mil more than Theriot. Theriot's numbers are definitely worth the league minimum. I'm glad we have Theriot, but I wouldn't be if he was making half of what Eckstein gets.

[USSoccer]

Theriot is not good in any way shape or form, but he is adequate if he's still making minimum wage. The day he starts making money is the day he loses any value. If the Cubs solidify other spots this offseason, I'm fine with Theriot starting at SS and hitting 8th. But they clearly need to improve offensively, and if they can find that improvement at SS, I'd be more than happy to see Theriot move back to a utility role.

 

That's pretty much it right there. At his salary, he's an acceptable player for now. If the offense improves at CF, C or RF, you can hit him low in the order and live with it. If we can't improve at those 3 positions, you have to improve at SS and let Theriot fill in at 2B or SS in a utility role.

 

And it's all about numbers. It's great that he plays hard and seems to be a smart player and an effort guy, but with our current roster, you need better production from half of your position players.

[TheDude]

I'd imagine many of the Theriot-lovers were weeping for days when Burnitz was traded. Man, that guy hustled his heart out and he was mediocre as all get-out.

 

Big difference between SS and RF. Theriot's SS or 2B production is acceptable in a lineup that has big production elsewhere, and has some compensation production at another non-traditional offensive spot. Burnitz's hustle in RF didn't mask his production shortage.

 

You stick both Theriot and Pie in a lineup together if you have 5 .800-1.000+ OPS guys and you can probably drop a .750 in there as well.

 

Going into 2007, Theriot looked just fine at 2B or SS. If Lee, Ramirez, and Soriano had put up the 110 HR we expected in 2007, and Jones/Floyd/Murton/Barrett/Derosa had combined for 60 HR as expected, Theriot's ~.690 OPS doesn't matter much.

 

Going into next year, Theriot is still good as an MIF super-sub with 400 ABs. He needs to increase his doubles and triples a bit, but he's young enough to raise those next year.

[jaxxradio]

Let me see if I got this straight.. Ryan Theriot is "okay" for a player that is making the minimum salary, but the Cubs need to upgrade down the road?

 

Gee, the guy has solidified the number two spot in the order, plays ABOVE AVERAGE defense in a position that requires DEFENSE first, has provided this club with a spark in the top of the order that hasn't been there since Bob Dernier was in the top of the order many moons ago AND (if that weren't enough) has played his arse off with the intensity that is spreading both on and off the field.

 

Let me clue some of you number crunchers in on something that those of us in the game already know.. sometimes, one must look BEYOND the numbers to see the value of a player. Theriot is that kind of player.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'd imagine many of the Theriot-lovers were weeping for days when Burnitz was traded. Man, that guy hustled his heart out and he was mediocre as all get-out.

 

Big difference between SS and RF. Theriot's SS or 2B production is acceptable in a lineup that has big production elsewhere, and has some compensation production at another non-traditional offensive spot. Burnitz's hustle in RF didn't mask his production shortage.

 

Why do people keep responding to my original point like Theriot has matched Burnitz's offensive output or projects to even come close to matching Burnitz's offensive output? Ryan has had his bright spots, but his career up until this point and his age is likely indicative of his offense being well below his high points. I can live with him as a backup utility guy, but to want him hitting any higher than 7th or 8th or on a regular basis simply because he's cheap and has been decent for short periods in a very small sample size strikes me as not being good for the team at all in the long run.

 

And no, I'm not trying to argue that Burnitz was the right RFer for this team, but I think straight up comparing his output with the bat to Theriot's definitely weighs in Burnitz's favor.

[VanceJergins]

Let me see if I got this straight.. Ryan Theriot is "okay" for a player that is making the minimum salary, but the Cubs need to upgrade down the road?

 

Gee, the guy has solidified the number two spot in the order, plays ABOVE AVERAGE defense in a position that requires DEFENSE first, has provided this club with a spark in the top of the order that hasn't been there since Bob Dernier was in the top of the order many moons ago AND (if that weren't enough) has played his arse off with the intensity that is spreading both on and off the field.

 

Let me clue some of you number crunchers in on something that those of us in the game already know.. sometimes, one must look BEYOND the numbers to see the value of a player. Theriot is that kind of player.

 

I would argue that winning is what sparks a team, and the more productive a player is, the more likely his team is to win. Therefore, I would choose a productive player over an arse-busting player.

 

I think Ramirez's walk-off against the Brewers sparked the team as much as anything this year, and he's not an arse-buster.

[abuck1220]

his spark quotient is off the charts.

[VVMattVV]

his spark quotient is off the charts.

 

if you add in his hustle, heart, and scrappy factors it negates his mediocre OBP and terrible SLG

[SouthSideRyan]

Let me clue some of you number crunchers in on something that those of us in the game already know..

 

Tremendous, but you forgot to call us kids this time.

[Vanilla Ice]

I'd imagine many of the Theriot-lovers were weeping for days when Burnitz was traded. Man, that guy hustled his heart out and he was mediocre as all get-out.

 

Big difference between SS and RF. Theriot's SS or 2B production is acceptable in a lineup that has big production elsewhere, and has some compensation production at another non-traditional offensive spot. Burnitz's hustle in RF didn't mask his production shortage.

 

Why do people keep responding to my original point like Theriot has matched Burnitz's offensive output or projects to even come close to matching Burnitz's offensive output? Ryan has had his bright spots, but his career up until this point and his age is likely indicative of his offense being well below his high points. I can live with him as a backup utility guy, but to want him hitting any higher than 7th or 8th or on a regular basis simply because he's cheap and has been decent for short periods in a very small sample size strikes me as not being good for the team at all in the long run.

 

And no, I'm not trying to argue that Burnitz was the right RFer for this team, but I think straight up comparing his output with the bat to Theriot's definitely weighs in Burnitz's favor.

 

Go root for the Yankees

[jersey cubs fan]

I'd imagine many of the Theriot-lovers were weeping for days when Burnitz was traded. Man, that guy hustled his heart out and he was mediocre as all get-out.

 

Big difference between SS and RF. Theriot's SS or 2B production is acceptable in a lineup that has big production elsewhere, and has some compensation production at another non-traditional offensive spot. Burnitz's hustle in RF didn't mask his production shortage.

 

Why do people keep responding to my original point like Theriot has matched Burnitz's offensive output or projects to even come close to matching Burnitz's offensive output? Ryan has had his bright spots, but his career up until this point and his age is likely indicative of his offense being well below his high points. I can live with him as a backup utility guy, but to want him hitting any higher than 7th or 8th or on a regular basis simply because he's cheap and has been decent for short periods in a very small sample size strikes me as not being good for the team at all in the long run.

 

And no, I'm not trying to argue that Burnitz was the right RFer for this team, but I think straight up comparing his output with the bat to Theriot's definitely weighs in Burnitz's favor.

 

Go root for the Yankees

 

Are you seriously equating pointing out the shortcomings of a mediocre player to Yankees fans who demand an all star at every position, or are you poking fun that those who use this ridiculous tactic to brush off comments by those who are interested in seeing the Cubs get better?

[Rob]

Let me see if I got this straight.. Ryan Theriot is "okay" for a player that is making the minimum salary, but the Cubs need to upgrade down the road?

 

Gee, the guy has solidified the number two spot in the order, plays ABOVE AVERAGE defense in a position that requires DEFENSE first, has provided this club with a spark in the top of the order that hasn't been there since Bob Dernier was in the top of the order many moons ago AND (if that weren't enough) has played his arse off with the intensity that is spreading both on and off the field.

 

Let me clue some of you number crunchers in on something that those of us in the game already know.. sometimes, one must look BEYOND the numbers to see the value of a player. Theriot is that kind of player.

 

1) Theriot is NOT above average defensively. He is certainly quite surehanded, and accurate with his throws. However, his range is abysmal and his arm strength is nothing to write home about. He's diving and missing at balls that Cedeno is getting to standing upright. Theriot is quite good at balls hit right at him, but he's not making any plays that the average shortstop wouldn't. At best, you can make a case for him being solid... but he's certainly a tick on the short side of average.

 

2) If you have to look that closely to find any semblance of value in a player, the odds are pretty good that you're reading too far into it.

 

3) Let's suppose for a moment that you are right and that Theriot has some sort of intangible value to the rest of the team. How much do you really think he adds?

 

4) We should always be looking to upgrade everywhere. If we can get Chase Utley at 2B for a reasonable cost, I would hate to have us pass up on it because Mark DeRosa has done a pretty darn good job there. If we could trade DLee for Pujols, or Aramis for Miguel Cabrera, we'd be stupid not to. Upgrading constantly is the sign of a good team and good management, not something to be abhorred.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm fine running with Theriot for a while, and his production is certainly decent enough for the paycheck he's collecting. But his value is more in line with the first infielder off the bench on a good team. And when he starts getting arbitration-eligible and in line for a 4 million dollar payday, he's past the point where his play would justify his salary.

[Vanilla Ice]

I'd imagine many of the Theriot-lovers were weeping for days when Burnitz was traded. Man, that guy hustled his heart out and he was mediocre as all get-out.

 

Big difference between SS and RF. Theriot's SS or 2B production is acceptable in a lineup that has big production elsewhere, and has some compensation production at another non-traditional offensive spot. Burnitz's hustle in RF didn't mask his production shortage.

 

Why do people keep responding to my original point like Theriot has matched Burnitz's offensive output or projects to even come close to matching Burnitz's offensive output? Ryan has had his bright spots, but his career up until this point and his age is likely indicative of his offense being well below his high points. I can live with him as a backup utility guy, but to want him hitting any higher than 7th or 8th or on a regular basis simply because he's cheap and has been decent for short periods in a very small sample size strikes me as not being good for the team at all in the long run.

 

And no, I'm not trying to argue that Burnitz was the right RFer for this team, but I think straight up comparing his output with the bat to Theriot's definitely weighs in Burnitz's favor.

 

Go root for the Yankees

 

Are you seriously equating pointing out the shortcomings of a mediocre player to Yankees fans who demand an all star at every position, or are you poking fun that those who use this ridiculous tactic to brush off comments by those who are interested in seeing the Cubs get better?

 

Kinda both, I think every lineup needs to have a singles hitter that can get on base (with the exception of September) and play good defense. The Angels are built around them, the Red Sox have Ellsbury and Lugo. The D'Backs have Hudson, the Phillies have Rollins (yes, he is better than Theriot, but the point stands), the Mets have Castillo (I am not going to compare Reyes to Theriot). The Cardinals have Eckstein. Do I need to go on?

 

I realize going to root for the yankees is an extreme.

[Vanilla Ice]

Let me see if I got this straight.. Ryan Theriot is "okay" for a player that is making the minimum salary, but the Cubs need to upgrade down the road?

 

Gee, the guy has solidified the number two spot in the order, plays ABOVE AVERAGE defense in a position that requires DEFENSE first, has provided this club with a spark in the top of the order that hasn't been there since Bob Dernier was in the top of the order many moons ago AND (if that weren't enough) has played his arse off with the intensity that is spreading both on and off the field.

 

Let me clue some of you number crunchers in on something that those of us in the game already know.. sometimes, one must look BEYOND the numbers to see the value of a player. Theriot is that kind of player.

 

1) Theriot is NOT above average defensively. He is certainly quite surehanded, and accurate with his throws. However, his range is abysmal and his arm strength is nothing to write home about. He's diving and missing at balls that Cedeno is getting to standing upright. Theriot is quite good at balls hit right at him, but he's not making any plays that the average shortstop wouldn't. At best, you can make a case for him being solid... but he's certainly a tick on the short side of average.

 

So you would rather have Cedeno play? :?:

[Rob]

I'd imagine many of the Theriot-lovers were weeping for days when Burnitz was traded. Man, that guy hustled his heart out and he was mediocre as all get-out.

 

Big difference between SS and RF. Theriot's SS or 2B production is acceptable in a lineup that has big production elsewhere, and has some compensation production at another non-traditional offensive spot. Burnitz's hustle in RF didn't mask his production shortage.

 

Why do people keep responding to my original point like Theriot has matched Burnitz's offensive output or projects to even come close to matching Burnitz's offensive output? Ryan has had his bright spots, but his career up until this point and his age is likely indicative of his offense being well below his high points. I can live with him as a backup utility guy, but to want him hitting any higher than 7th or 8th or on a regular basis simply because he's cheap and has been decent for short periods in a very small sample size strikes me as not being good for the team at all in the long run.

 

And no, I'm not trying to argue that Burnitz was the right RFer for this team, but I think straight up comparing his output with the bat to Theriot's definitely weighs in Burnitz's favor.

 

Go root for the Yankees

 

Are you seriously equating pointing out the shortcomings of a mediocre player to Yankees fans who demand an all star at every position, or are you poking fun that those who use this ridiculous tactic to brush off comments by those who are interested in seeing the Cubs get better?

 

Kinda both, I think every lineup needs to have a singles hitter that can get on base (with the exception of September) and play good defense. The Angels are built around them, the Red Sox have Ellsbury and Lugo. The D'Backs have Hudson, the Phillies have Rollins (yes, he is better than Theriot, but the point stands), the Mets have Castillo (I am not going to compare Reyes to Theriot). The Cardinals have Eckstein. Do I need to go on?

 

I realize going to root for the yankees is an extreme.

 

Theriot has a .330 OBP, compared to the league average of .347. And again, Theriot really isn't a good defensive player.

[Vanilla Ice]

I'd imagine many of the Theriot-lovers were weeping for days when Burnitz was traded. Man, that guy hustled his heart out and he was mediocre as all get-out.

 

Big difference between SS and RF. Theriot's SS or 2B production is acceptable in a lineup that has big production elsewhere, and has some compensation production at another non-traditional offensive spot. Burnitz's hustle in RF didn't mask his production shortage.

 

Why do people keep responding to my original point like Theriot has matched Burnitz's offensive output or projects to even come close to matching Burnitz's offensive output? Ryan has had his bright spots, but his career up until this point and his age is likely indicative of his offense being well below his high points. I can live with him as a backup utility guy, but to want him hitting any higher than 7th or 8th or on a regular basis simply because he's cheap and has been decent for short periods in a very small sample size strikes me as not being good for the team at all in the long run.

 

And no, I'm not trying to argue that Burnitz was the right RFer for this team, but I think straight up comparing his output with the bat to Theriot's definitely weighs in Burnitz's favor.

 

Go root for the Yankees

 

Are you seriously equating pointing out the shortcomings of a mediocre player to Yankees fans who demand an all star at every position, or are you poking fun that those who use this ridiculous tactic to brush off comments by those who are interested in seeing the Cubs get better?

 

Kinda both, I think every lineup needs to have a singles hitter that can get on base (with the exception of September) and play good defense. The Angels are built around them, the Red Sox have Ellsbury and Lugo. The D'Backs have Hudson, the Phillies have Rollins (yes, he is better than Theriot, but the point stands), the Mets have Castillo (I am not going to compare Reyes to Theriot). The Cardinals have Eckstein. Do I need to go on?

 

I realize going to root for the yankees is an extreme.

 

Theriot has a .330 OBP, compared to the league average of .347. And again, Theriot really isn't a good defensive player.

 

What is his OBP without September? His defense is not that bad. I cannot remember him making a bad throw, or making an error of any kind. He does not have range like Reyes or a gun like Reyes.

 

But he has pretty good range and not a terrible arm. So, he is above average, not great.

[Mizzou]

Let me clue some of you number crunchers in on something that those of us in the game already know.. sometimes, one must look BEYOND the numbers to see the value of a player. Theriot is that kind of player.

Those of us in the game? Dude you're a minor league radio announcer, get over yourself.

 

For what it's worth, I agree with the gist of your post. But there's no need to think you're more knowledgeable or better than the rest of us because you get paid to announce minor league games that maybe 50 people listen to.

[Banedon]

Let me see if I got this straight.. Ryan Theriot is "okay" for a player that is making the minimum salary, but the Cubs need to upgrade down the road?

 

Gee, the guy has solidified the number two spot in the order, plays ABOVE AVERAGE defense in a position that requires DEFENSE first, has provided this club with a spark in the top of the order that hasn't been there since Bob Dernier was in the top of the order many moons ago AND (if that weren't enough) has played his arse off with the intensity that is spreading both on and off the field.

 

Let me clue some of you number crunchers in on something that those of us in the game already know.. sometimes, one must look BEYOND the numbers to see the value of a player. Theriot is that kind of player.

 

I'm confused though...how has he solidified the #2 spot when he's not been hitting well enough to stay there lately. He's batted #8 an awful lot lately while guys like Derosa and Jones have gotten to bat #2. That doesn't seem too "solidified".

 

Kenny Lofton provided a pretty good spark at the top of the order.

[UK1679666180]

 

What is his OBP without September? His defense is not that bad. I cannot remember him making a bad throw, or making an error of any kind. He does not have range like Reyes or a gun like Reyes.

 

But he has pretty good range and not a terrible arm. So, he is above average, not great.

 

What is his OBP w/out July?

 

Picking and choosing doesn't accomplish anything.

 

He's a MI utility player starting at SS b/c he has been the best option on a team with no starting SS. Good hands, poor arm, below avg. range for a SS. Avg. to slightly below avg at SS defensively to above avg. defensively for a 2B which requires less range and less arm strength.

 

If they had the funds or the expendable players to improve SS, I wouldn't let Theriot prevent them from upgrading. I question whether they do.

[Banedon]

What is his OBP without September? His defense is not that bad. I cannot remember him making a bad throw, or making an error of any kind. He does not have range like Reyes or a gun like Reyes.

 

But he has pretty good range and not a terrible arm. So, he is above average, not great.

 

What's his OBP if you take out July?

 

How about we split the difference...lets take out the best and worst month. If I did my math right (and someone can check me on this) I got .316.

 

EDIT: Quit stealing my good lines, Ping...

[Rob]

First off, no, I never said I'd rather have Cedeno play. I didn't even say Cedeno was better defensively. I was just using him to make the point that Theriot doesn't have much range, and that is a fact. Theriot does an excellent job at the balls hit right at him, but so does almost every other shortstop in the league, and they all make a lot more plays outside the normal range than Theriot does. He's solid, but he's nowhere near above average.

 

And why on earth would you subtract September from his season to make a point? I could cherry pick and get rid of his July to do the same thing. Without his July, he gets much worse than he gets better subtracting his September. If any month is the anomaly that would deserve to get cut, it would be July.

[Vanilla Ice]

 

What is his OBP without September? His defense is not that bad. I cannot remember him making a bad throw, or making an error of any kind. He does not have range like Reyes or a gun like Reyes.

 

But he has pretty good range and not a terrible arm. So, he is above average, not great.

 

What is his OBP w/out July?

 

Picking and choosing doesn't accomplish anything.

 

He's a MI utility player starting at SS b/c he has been the best option on a team with no starting SS. Good hands, poor arm, below avg. range for a SS. Avg. to slightly below avg at SS defensively to above avg. defensively for a 2B which requires less range and less arm strength.

 

If they had the funds or the expendable players to improve SS, I wouldn't let Theriot prevent them from upgrading. I question whether they do.

 

Ok, what is his OBP without July and September?

[Banedon]

 

What is his OBP without September? His defense is not that bad. I cannot remember him making a bad throw, or making an error of any kind. He does not have range like Reyes or a gun like Reyes.

 

But he has pretty good range and not a terrible arm. So, he is above average, not great.

 

What is his OBP w/out July?

 

Picking and choosing doesn't accomplish anything.

 

He's a MI utility player starting at SS b/c he has been the best option on a team with no starting SS. Good hands, poor arm, below avg. range for a SS. Avg. to slightly below avg at SS defensively to above avg. defensively for a 2B which requires less range and less arm strength.

 

If they had the funds or the expendable players to improve SS, I wouldn't let Theriot prevent them from upgrading. I question whether they do.

 

Ok, what is his OBP without July and September?

 

See my previous post.

 

What's his OBP if you take out July?

 

How about we split the difference...lets take out the best and worst month. If I did my math right (and someone can check me on this) I got .316.

 

EDIT: Quit stealing my good lines, Ping...

Edited September 17, 2007 by Banedon

[Sammy Sofa]

Fontenot is the greatest 2nd bagger for the Cubs since Sandberg if you only count his first two months.