How much are so many Cub fans overrating Ryan Theriot?

[Abe Frohman]

I'm glad you're here, jaxxradio. Your insight is valuable to me and many other Cub fans. You are selling yourself short, though - your job puts you in position to share some pretty valuable information, and you don't get that position from being baseball illiterate.

[CUBZ99]

but don't get in a pissy mood because I expressed my opnion as someone who, unlike yourself and 99% of the other posters here, haven't had the pleasure to sit down and talk baseball for hours on end with people (see above) that are involved in the game.

 

Does this make me a more intelligent baseball person? Of course not, but it does shed ALOT of light on some of the things an organization does that you folks aren't privy to.

 

The problem is that your second paragraph contradicts your first. Also, your tone and attitude beg to differ.

 

Great, you've sat down with players and talked with them. If anything, that makes any opinions you have of Cubs prospects and players biased because you have a personal history with them. At least with our posters here, we don't have any personal history with these players, so we have no biases in our analysis. It's strictly objective.

 

For the record, you don't have to be an announcer, scout or former player to be able to correctly peg a major league baseball player. Thinking otherwise is incredibly arrogant. Ryan Theriot is an acceptable SS on a team with an above average offense. On this current team, he's replaceable. Not because people don't like him, but because his production at his position makes him a candidate to be upgraded.

 

You missed the entire point of his post. Its amazing that any broadcasters, parents, players, reporters come on this site at all anymore. Ron does have some incredible insight that most of us aren't privy too, because he is a broadcaster and gets to see more games than we do. He is also closer to the players and gets to talk to people in different organizations to get their thoughts on certain players, etc.

 

Does that make his opinion right all of the time? Of course not, but it makes his opinion more educated than someone with less information (you and me).

 

There used to be a time when we afforded them some defference and respected their opinions, without piling on every aspect we disagree with.

Edited September 18, 2007 by CUBZ99

[Rob]

Mizzou (and everyone else who wants to bag on me)..

 

I'm a minor league broadcaster.. yep, thats right.. you got me pegged.. I'm a minor league broadcaster who has seen close to 2,000 games, talked with many hitting coaches, pitching coaches, managers, scouts, farm directors, major league general managers, etc. Is this me patting myself on the back? Nope, not in the least. This is what I do, this is my job and I am thankful for it.

 

Mizzou, if you want me to "get over myself".. no problem. You have your opinion and you are entitled to it, but don't get in a pissy mood because I expressed my opnion as someone who, unlike yourself and 99% of the other posters here, haven't had the pleasure to sit down and talk baseball for hours on end with people (see above) that are involved in the game.

 

Does this make me a more intelligent baseball person? Of course not, but it does shed ALOT of light on some of the things an organization does that you folks aren't privy to.

 

If this post makes me sound arrogant and obnoxious, its not meant to. Like I said, I am a baseball broadcaster and talking with the people listed above is something I get to do. I wish alot of you had the opportunity to as well.

 

With all due respect, I would appreciate it if you responded to my well thought out post on page five, rather than simply going after the people who acted childish.

[CubinNY]

There used to be a time when we afforded them some defference and respected their opinions, without piling on every aspect we disagree with.

 

Defference and respect are intersections on a two way street.

[Electron Blue]

but don't get in a pissy mood because I expressed my opnion as someone who, unlike yourself and 99% of the other posters here, haven't had the pleasure to sit down and talk baseball for hours on end with people (see above) that are involved in the game.

 

Does this make me a more intelligent baseball person? Of course not, but it does shed ALOT of light on some of the things an organization does that you folks aren't privy to.

 

 

For the record, you don't have to be an announcer, scout or former player to be able to correctly peg a major league baseball player. Thinking otherwise is incredibly arrogant. Ryan Theriot is an acceptable SS on a team with an above average offense. On this current team, he's replaceable. Not because people don't like him, but because his production at his position makes him a candidate to be upgraded.

 

As long as you don't think Ron is actually saying "you have to be an announcer, scout or former player to be able to correctly peg a major league baseball player." -- because I don't see it -- then I agree.

 

I also appreciate Ron being on the board, a great deal.

[CUBZ99]

There used to be a time when we afforded them some defference and respected their opinions, without piling on every aspect we disagree with.

 

Defference and respect are intersections on a two way street.

 

I fully agree. I personally enjoy being part of a community where Radio announcers, TV announcers, parents and spouses of Cubs players, reporters, and other front office people frequent. The easiest way to ruin that is to continue to post childish posts or attack them for every little thing you have issue with.

[Warren Brusstar]

Mizzou (and everyone else who wants to bag on me)..

 

I'm a minor league broadcaster.. yep, thats right.. you got me pegged.. I'm a minor league broadcaster who has seen close to 2,000 games, talked with many hitting coaches, pitching coaches, managers, scouts, farm directors, major league general managers, etc. Is this me patting myself on the back? Nope, not in the least. This is what I do, this is my job and I am thankful for it.

 

Mizzou, if you want me to "get over myself".. no problem. You have your opinion and you are entitled to it, but don't get in a pissy mood because I expressed my opnion as someone who, unlike yourself and 99% of the other posters here, haven't had the pleasure to sit down and talk baseball for hours on end with people (see above) that are involved in the game.

 

Does this make me a more intelligent baseball person? Of course not, but it does shed ALOT of light on some of the things an organization does that you folks aren't privy to.

 

If this post makes me sound arrogant and obnoxious, its not meant to. Like I said, I am a baseball broadcaster and talking with the people listed above is something I get to do. I wish alot of you had the opportunity to as well.

 

If professional baseball organizations generally did things that optimized their available resources, you would certainly have an insight into that process. But they don't. Professional baseball organizations -- and particularly the Cubs -- are beholden to conventional practices that a landslide of analysis demonstrates are irrational. So while you certainly have insight into the thought processes of terbaccy chewing "baseball men," it assumes to much to suggest that by virtue of those interactions you somehow are better-positioned to understand Theriot's value relative to other players. You're not.

[abuck1220]

There used to be a time when we afforded them some defference and respected their opinions, without piling on every aspect we disagree with.

 

Defference and respect are intersections on a two way street.

 

I fully agree. I personally enjoy being part of a community where Radio announcers, TV announcers, parents and spouses of Cubs players, reporters, and other front office people frequent. The easiest way to ruin that is to continue to post childish posts or attack them for every little thing you have issue with.

 

read his original post, which starts off the "attacking."

 

i appreciate these guys being here too, but they don't get a free pass to talk down to people juat because they eat at the buffett table with adam greenberg.

[imb]

I'm glad you're here, jaxxradio. Your insight is valuable to me and many other Cub fans. You are selling yourself short, though - your job puts you in position to share some pretty valuable information, and you don't get that position from being baseball illiterate.

 

http://bryan-brown.com/sportsemmy05portraits/images/_DSC7393_lr.jpg

 

http://www.spudart.org/blog/images/2006/hawk-harrelson-sox.jpg

 

And these guys are award winners who broadcast major league games on tv, not just a AA radio guy. You want to think that post through again?

[jaxxradio]

Okay, lets answer some questions:

 

1) Do you have to be a baseball broadcaster, scout or former player to peg a baseball player? Of course not. Anyone can see who is a major leaguer and who isn't, but the opinions from the scouts and those inside the game (not necessarily the broadcaster) should mean a little bit more since they do work in this game.

 

2) Is my opinon spot on 100% of the time? HELL NO!! Shoot, I thought Izturis was a solid acquisition when the Cubs traded for him. I missed big time on that one.. lol

 

3) Is Ryan Theriot a solid major league SS? YES!! Look, numbers aside..he has brought something to this team that we haven't seen in quite a long time. Intensity for one and a winning trait. Look at his career. LSU? College World Series title. Champion in Short-A, Low-A, would have been in Double-A one had the Cubs not sent him to the majors in 2005. That's an example of going "beyond the numbers."

 

4) (Just for you Rob..) Would you rather have a "premium" SS than Theriot? It depends. Would you like to spend 15-20 million dollars a year on one position player who does things better or spend the minimum on a guy who does a solid job and save the money you were going to spend on the "premium" SS to get help in other positions? Look, baseball is a business first and foremost. Numbers wise, A-Rod or Tejada would be perfect, but at what cost? getting average pitching staff?? No thanks.

 

5) Have any of you seen batting practice before a game? If you haven't, do yourself a favor and watch it from beginning to end. At some point in the practice (toward the beginning), you will see players hitting the ball to the right side. Why? Because hitting the ball to the right side with a runner at second and less than two outs is ESSENTIAL in this game. If it weren't, they wouldn't be working on it.

 

Again, I don't want to sound arrogant because I am not. I am just a guy who has been TREMENDOUSLY BLESSED with the opportunity to "work" in baseball for a living.

[USSoccer]

 

You missed the entire point of his post. Its amazing that any broadcasters, parents, players, reporters come on this site at all anymore. Ron does have some incredible insight that most of us aren't privy too, because he is a broadcaster and gets to see more games than we do. He is also closer to the players and gets to talk to people in different organizations to get their thoughts on certain players, etc.

 

Does that make his opinion right all of the time? Of course not, but it makes his opinion more educated than someone with less information (you and me).

 

There used to be a time when we afforded them some defference and respected their opinions, without piling on every aspect we disagree with.

 

There's a difference between having a respectful discussion of a disagreement, and getting lectured by someone who trots out the "I'm-In-The-Know" card every time he's pressed into a discussion or debate.

 

I don't care who does what on this board. I don't care if jaxx is a radio guy for the Smokies, or if Goony sells hotdogs in Battery Park. I care about the substance of the post. And the substance of his original post was condescending.

 

Just to draw a contrast, Bruce Miles is in the media, in the know, and when he gets into a discussion, doesn't play the same "I'm a beat guy and you aren't involved in the game" card. Now look at how people treat Bruce, and tell me the whole thing about the poor poor insiders who come to NorthSide and get abused.

[abuck1220]

Okay, lets answer some questions:

 

1) Do you have to be a baseball broadcaster, scout or former player to peg a baseball player? Of course not. Anyone can see who is a major leaguer and who isn't, but the opinions from the scouts and those inside the game (not necessarily the broadcaster) should mean a little bit more since they do work in this game.

 

 

i agree that a scout's opinion is valuable, but that's because a scout's job is to evaluate baseball players...that's what they were trained to do. you were trained in broadcasting, and that's a lot different.

[jaxxradio]

I get it IMB.. I am a minor league baseball broadcaster.. but I still work in the game. Does that make me different from Joe Morgan or Hawk Harrelson? Only in the sense that they get to broadcast on the biggest stage.

[jaxxradio]

USS.. I don't play that card at all..

 

Look, this is a childish argument that I don't want any part of. Root for the Cubs, drink your Old-Style, sit in the bleachers and have a great time. Hopefully, the Cubs win the division and go deep into the playoffs.

[imb]

I get it IMB.. I am a minor league baseball broadcaster.. but I still work in the game. Does that make me different from Joe Morgan or Hawk Harrelson? Only in the sense that they get to broadcast on the biggest stage.

 

I was just responding to a guy that said that you don't get to be at the position you are at if you're baseball illiterate.

 

Those two are the definition of baseball illiterate, yet they win broadcasting awards while broadcasting thousands of games on cable tv.

[jaxxradio]

I apologize to you IMB.. I thought you did something else.

 

BTW, you are right.. especially about Hawk..

[CubinNY]

I get it IMB.. I am a minor league baseball broadcaster.. but I still work in the game. Does that make me different from Joe Morgan or Hawk Harrelson? Only in the sense that they get to broadcast on the biggest stage.

Listen, it doesn't matter who you are or where you work. You should take it as a sign of respect that people respond your posts in a critical manner and not take things personally. This is a stupid message board, every opinion will be dicected and disagreements will arise.

[CUBZ99]

Okay, lets answer some questions:

 

1) Do you have to be a baseball broadcaster, scout or former player to peg a baseball player? Of course not. Anyone can see who is a major leaguer and who isn't, but the opinions from the scouts and those inside the game (not necessarily the broadcaster) should mean a little bit more since they do work in this game.

 

 

i agree that a scout's opinion is valuable, but that's because a scout's job is to evaluate baseball players...that's what they were trained to do. you were trained in broadcasting, and that's a lot different.

 

Your not arguing that a broadcaster (who watches the team everyday) doesn't have more insight into players than a person who simply looks at stats and reads box scores are you?

 

If you were to attend every single game during the year or see player "a" play 10 or so times a year, there is no doubt you would have more information to base your opinions of a player on, than someone who frequents a message board and reads box scores.

[jaxxradio]

Cub, I'm not taking anything personally.. everyone has their opinion on this game, thats what makes it great. I just get tired of people accusing me of being arrogant and a know it all when I am not.

[USSoccer]

USS.. I don't play that card at all..

 

You use that card in nearly every thread in which someone has an opinion of a current or former Cubs minor leaguer that differs from you. For instance:

 

I expressed my opnion as someone who, unlike yourself and 99% of the other posters here, haven't had the pleasure to sit down and talk baseball for hours on end with people (see above) that are involved in the game.

 

Why do you feel the need to qualify your opinions using your occupation? Can't your points stand on their own without reminding us what we don't do for a living?

[abuck1220]

Okay, lets answer some questions:

 

1) Do you have to be a baseball broadcaster, scout or former player to peg a baseball player? Of course not. Anyone can see who is a major leaguer and who isn't, but the opinions from the scouts and those inside the game (not necessarily the broadcaster) should mean a little bit more since they do work in this game.

 

 

i agree that a scout's opinion is valuable, but that's because a scout's job is to evaluate baseball players...that's what they were trained to do. you were trained in broadcasting, and that's a lot different.

 

Your not arguing that a broadcaster (who watches the team everyday) doesn't have more insight into players than a person who simply looks at stats and reads box scores are you?

 

 

what is that "insight" exactly? sure, he knows who's nice, who's a jerk, who the coaches like, etc, and, no, i don't have that information. but him seeing ryan theriot everyday when he was in AA doesn't give him anymore insight than i have with regard to his performance with the big league team this year.

[haltz]

Why do you feel the need to qualify your opinions using your occupation? Can't your points stand on their own without reminding us what we don't do for a living?

Stuff like team chemistry usually doesn't stand on its own. Jaxx seems like a nice guy, so I'm not picking on him here, but it's usually part of a narrative given by people in journalism because it's romantic, and it's the kind of pat answer that players and coaches feed people that interview them.

 

If most players were honest they would say that their at-bats have nothing to do with whoever's sitting next to them on the bench or three spots away in the lineup. I supported this logically earlier in the thread, but I could do so anecdotally as well.

[jaxxradio]

I can see your point, though if it bothers you that much maybe you should think about getting a job in the game.

 

From now on, I won't use "the card" anymore. I'll share my opinion and leave it at that. I do apologize if it hurt your feelings or bothered you.

 

BTW.. that's one reference in 485 postings. That works out to a pretty good average don't you think??

[CUBZ99]

Okay, lets answer some questions:

 

1) Do you have to be a baseball broadcaster, scout or former player to peg a baseball player? Of course not. Anyone can see who is a major leaguer and who isn't, but the opinions from the scouts and those inside the game (not necessarily the broadcaster) should mean a little bit more since they do work in this game.

 

 

i agree that a scout's opinion is valuable, but that's because a scout's job is to evaluate baseball players...that's what they were trained to do. you were trained in broadcasting, and that's a lot different.

 

Your not arguing that a broadcaster (who watches the team everyday) doesn't have more insight into players than a person who simply looks at stats and reads box scores are you?

 

 

what is that "insight" exactly? sure, he knows who's nice, who's a jerk, who the coaches like, etc, and, no, i don't have that information. but him seeing ryan theriot everyday when he was in AA doesn't give him anymore insight than i have with regard to his performance with the big league team this year.

 

I thought your post was more general than that. When dealing with minor league players, it is nice to get some opinions from people that have actually seen the games/players.

[USSoccer]

I can see your point, though if it bothers you that much maybe you should think about getting a job in the game.

 

From now on, I won't use "the card" anymore. I'll share my opinion and leave it at that. I do apologize if it hurt your feelings or bothered you.

 

BTW.. that's one reference in 485 postings. That works out to a pretty good average don't you think??

 

Wow, you're missing the point. I don't need a job in the game to make me any smarter or more insightful. If I got hired by the Cubs tomorrow in their marketing office, or as a PA during the broadcasts, I'm no smarter or more insightful than I am today.

 

That's the point. We all understand what you do. What you don't seem to understand is that it doesn't make your point about Ryan Theriot any more or less valid. You, however, seem to think that your experiences with Theriot like 2 years ago have anything to do with his value to the major league ballclub, and you had no problem telling us how your experiences and insider status gave your opinion a guilded edge.

 

And as far as being 1/485, I'm sure if I had the time on my hands I could find more examples, but even if it's only like 40/485, it's an example of how stats don't tell the whole story.

 

So to speak.