Levine: Soto called up; 3 teams interested in Izturis

[nick23]

If Pie is going down he should stay there until September. A Jones/Pagan platoon in CF gives us the best chance of winning IMO. Sori, Jones, and Floyd against righties. Sori, Pagan, and Derosa against lefties.

 

Jones vs RHP .239 .298 .346

Pie vs RHP .243 .305 .411

 

And Pie plays much better defense. Pie over Jones obviously makes the team better. Jones would have to completely turnaround his season to even come close to being the better option.

Yeah, obviously. Pie over the last month is 7 for 58. He's lost. Jones isn't great but I'll take my chances with how he's produced over the last three years against righties over the .243 .305 .411 Pie's put up this year.

 

That's a big gamble. He was good against RHP in 2005 and 2006, but in 2004 and 2007 he wasn't good.

It's actually not a big gamble. Pie has given us nothing this year. If Jacque can just play up to his career norms vs righties he's a solid bat towards the bottom of the lineup. I'll take the dropoff in CF defense in exchange for not having yet another black hole in the lineup.

[CubinNY]

[it's actually not a big gamble. Pie has given us nothing this year. If Jacque can just play up to his career norms vs righties he's a solid bat towards the bottom of the lineup. I'll take the dropoff in CF defense in exchange for not having yet another black hole in the lineup.

And that is the big gamble. A terrible gamble. A gamble the Cubs shouldn't take.

 

If they upgrade elsewhere they won't have to worry so much about CF. And once again, Pie wasn't exactly given much time to "prove" himself.

 

I've seen this movie before. It always ends the same way.

[moorecg]

This may be a stupid reason...but I really don't like the move that much because of its potential effect on Soriano...for some reason Fonzie seems to love Pie and his numbers with Pie up are better than with him down...if the cost of getting him to perform up to his contract is keeping Pie in the bigs (and keeping Jones out of the line up), its a price I'm happy to pay.

 

Maybe this is nothing...but I've heard it mentioned before and it comes to mind now.

[YearofDaCubs]

This may be a stupid reason...but I really don't like the move that much because of its potential effect on Soriano...for some reason Fonzie seems to love Pie and his numbers with Pie up are better than with him down...if the cost of getting him to perform up to his contract is keeping Pie in the bigs (and keeping Jones out of the line up), its a price I'm happy to pay.

 

Maybe this is nothing...but I've heard it mentioned before and it comes to mind now.

I don't believe that. I think it's more of coincidence over anything else.

[jersey cubs fan]

It's actually not a big gamble. Pie has given us nothing this year. If Jacque can just play up to his career norms vs righties he's a solid bat towards the bottom of the lineup. I'll take the dropoff in CF defense in exchange for not having yet another black hole in the lineup.

 

If Pie has given us nothing, Jones has given less than nothing. The "if he can just play up to his norms" is the gamble. Jones sucks, and he's worse now than when he was putting up those careers norms. His mediocre career is winding down. He's in his 30's, it should surprise nobody if he underperforms his norms. And he already is.

[jersey cubs fan]

This may be a stupid reason...but I really don't like the move that much because of its potential effect on Soriano...for some reason Fonzie seems to love Pie and his numbers with Pie up are better than with him down...if the cost of getting him to perform up to his contract is keeping Pie in the bigs (and keeping Jones out of the line up), its a price I'm happy to pay.

 

Maybe this is nothing...but I've heard it mentioned before and it comes to mind now.

I don't believe that. I think it's more of coincidence over anything else.

 

Same here. As much of a coincidence as the he performs better at leadoff theory.

[nick23]

[it's actually not a big gamble. Pie has given us nothing this year. If Jacque can just play up to his career norms vs righties he's a solid bat towards the bottom of the lineup. I'll take the dropoff in CF defense in exchange for not having yet another black hole in the lineup.

And that is the big gamble. A terrible gamble. A gamble the Cubs shouldn't take.

 

If they upgrade elsewhere they won't have to worry so much about CF. And once again, Pie wasn't exactly given much time to "prove" himself.

 

I've seen this movie before. It always ends the same way.

How is it a big gamble for a 32 year old to play up to his career norms? He had a bad 200 at bats. He's been very solid throughout his carerr vs RHP. It's not a big stretch at all to think he'll be productive in the second half against RHP. If you ask me the big gamble is sticking Pie in CF for the rest of the season and hoping he doesn't suck. This offense can't afford that. If we hope to overtake the Brewers this year Jacque Jones will probably have to play a decent part in that. It's a sucky scenario but it's probably true.

[moorecg]

This may be a stupid reason...but I really don't like the move that much because of its potential effect on Soriano...for some reason Fonzie seems to love Pie and his numbers with Pie up are better than with him down...if the cost of getting him to perform up to his contract is keeping Pie in the bigs (and keeping Jones out of the line up), its a price I'm happy to pay.

 

Maybe this is nothing...but I've heard it mentioned before and it comes to mind now.

I don't believe that. I think it's more of coincidence over anything else.

 

Same here. As much of a coincidence as the he performs better at leadoff theory.

 

 

Yeah...but hasn't that coincidence played out to be true over several hundred at bats over the last 3 years?

[jersey cubs fan]

How is it a big gamble for a 32 year old to play up to his career norms? He had a bad 200 at bats. He's been very solid throughout his carerr vs RHP.

 

Because mediocre players routinely disappear quickly in their 30's. Think Troy O'Leary who was very similar to Jones and out of the league by 33. Another br.com comparable is Mel Hall, done at 31. Remember Jeff Blauser? Mediocre career highlighted by a resurgent age 31 season, which was followed by a disastrous 32 and 33 season before he was gone. He's not good and past his prime, assuming this has been a fluke is a big gamble.

[jersey cubs fan]

This may be a stupid reason...but I really don't like the move that much because of its potential effect on Soriano...for some reason Fonzie seems to love Pie and his numbers with Pie up are better than with him down...if the cost of getting him to perform up to his contract is keeping Pie in the bigs (and keeping Jones out of the line up), its a price I'm happy to pay.

 

Maybe this is nothing...but I've heard it mentioned before and it comes to mind now.

I don't believe that. I think it's more of coincidence over anything else.

 

Same here. As much of a coincidence as the he performs better at leadoff theory.

 

 

Yeah...but hasn't that coincidence played out to be true over several hundred at bats over the last 3 years?

 

No.

[nick23]

It's actually not a big gamble. Pie has given us nothing this year. If Jacque can just play up to his career norms vs righties he's a solid bat towards the bottom of the lineup. I'll take the dropoff in CF defense in exchange for not having yet another black hole in the lineup.

 

If Pie has given us nothing, Jones has given less than nothing. The "if he can just play up to his norms" is the gamble. Jones sucks, and he's worse now than when he was putting up those careers norms. His mediocre career is winding down. He's in his 30's, it should surprise nobody if he underperforms his norms. And he already is.

But is it a bigger gamble than sticking Pie out there everyday and hoping he can give us anything? I just think Pie is the bigger question mark. I don't believe that in one year Jones has gone from outplaying his career averages to completely done and washed up. It doesn't add up.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

It's actually not a big gamble. Pie has given us nothing this year. If Jacque can just play up to his career norms vs righties he's a solid bat towards the bottom of the lineup. I'll take the dropoff in CF defense in exchange for not having yet another black hole in the lineup.

 

If Pie has given us nothing, Jones has given less than nothing. The "if he can just play up to his norms" is the gamble. Jones sucks, and he's worse now than when he was putting up those careers norms. His mediocre career is winding down. He's in his 30's, it should surprise nobody if he underperforms his norms. And he already is.

But is it a bigger gamble than sticking Pie out there everyday and hoping he can give us anything? I just think Pie is the bigger question mark. I don't believe that in one year Jones has gone from outplaying his career averages to completely done and washed up. It doesn't add up.

 

Pie and Jones have extremely similar offensive numbers, but Felix gets the nod for his dominance in the field. Sure, Jones's numbers will likely improve over the course of the season, but to me that improvement isn't enough to offset the improvement that Pie will also show.

[moorecg]

This may be a stupid reason...but I really don't like the move that much because of its potential effect on Soriano...for some reason Fonzie seems to love Pie and his numbers with Pie up are better than with him down...if the cost of getting him to perform up to his contract is keeping Pie in the bigs (and keeping Jones out of the line up), its a price I'm happy to pay.

 

Maybe this is nothing...but I've heard it mentioned before and it comes to mind now.

I don't believe that. I think it's more of coincidence over anything else.

 

Same here. As much of a coincidence as the he performs better at leadoff theory.

 

 

Yeah...but hasn't that coincidence played out to be true over several hundred at bats over the last 3 years?

 

No.

 

Batting #1 706(AB) .289 .354 .574 .928

Batting #3 557(AB) .264 .315 .458 .773

Batting #5 573(AB) .272 .317 .522 .839

 

 

These are the only 3 spots where he's got any real sample size in that time...He's better in every catagory from the one hole...I'm not saying there is a good explanation for it...but those are the numbers.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

To reiterate, Pie had a bad 2 week stretch(7 for 48), and was pretty much never seen from again. He was replaced with "hot hand" Angel Pagan, who's now 8 for his last 41. Now apparently the trendy pick is Jones, who hit a few doubles after hitting like a paraplegic for the first half. Pie is the best player out of the three, the best defender, the one with the long term future, he's the one that should've been playing all along. The "hot hand" thing is completely fine when you're trying to maximize production out of marginal players, like is the case with Theriot/Fontenot/DeRosa/Izturis. But who thinks Ward(18 for 55 on the year, 8 for his last 18) should take over first base from Lee(6 for his last 34)? The same logic applies to CF. Now, I don't completely hate Pie going to Iowa to get some at bats to get some positive work in before coming back, but his stay in Iowa needs to be a very short one.

[nick23]

How is it a big gamble for a 32 year old to play up to his career norms? He had a bad 200 at bats. He's been very solid throughout his carerr vs RHP.

 

Because mediocre players routinely disappear quickly in their 30's. Think Troy O'Leary who was very similar to Jones and out of the league by 33. Another br.com comparable is Mel Hall, done at 31. Remember Jeff Blauser? Mediocre career highlighted by a resurgent age 31 season, which was followed by a disastrous 32 and 33 season before he was gone. He's not good and past his prime, assuming this has been a fluke is a big gamble.

Man I hate to defend Jones but I'm just not buying it. Two players off the top of my head that compare to Jones are Shannon Stewart and Tori Hunter. Hunter is 31 and Stewart is 33. Both are having very solid years. I just don't think there's this magic age number where players just fall off a cliff. It's a slow, sometimes steady decline and after Jones numbers last year there's no way he's at the end of his career.

[jersey cubs fan]

It's actually not a big gamble. Pie has given us nothing this year. If Jacque can just play up to his career norms vs righties he's a solid bat towards the bottom of the lineup. I'll take the dropoff in CF defense in exchange for not having yet another black hole in the lineup.

 

If Pie has given us nothing, Jones has given less than nothing. The "if he can just play up to his norms" is the gamble. Jones sucks, and he's worse now than when he was putting up those careers norms. His mediocre career is winding down. He's in his 30's, it should surprise nobody if he underperforms his norms. And he already is.

But is it a bigger gamble than sticking Pie out there everyday and hoping he can give us anything? I just think Pie is the bigger question mark. I don't believe that in one year Jones has gone from outplaying his career averages to completely done and washed up. It doesn't add up.

 

Pie has upside Jones does not. I don't see how it doesn't add up to you. He might bounce back, but it's far from a sure thing. He had a fluke bounceback last year that wasn't really all that good. A couple less HR and nobody is thinking he outperformed anything. He still couldn't get on base. 3 of his past 4 years (including this season) have been bad. Last year was more of a fluke than anything else.

 

You have two guys doing very little at the plate. One guy is young and a good bet to get better, even if we have no idea where he will ultimately end up. The other guy is on the wrong side of 30 and already has a horrible approach at the plate that requires him to hit for power or be completely worthless. Plus, there's significant defensive difference. If I thought Jones was a great bet to out OPS Pie by 100 points, I'd be all for it. But I just don't see any reason to be comfortable assuming he will.

[jersey cubs fan]

Batting #1 706(AB) .289 .354 .574 .928

Batting #3 557(AB) .264 .315 .458 .773

Batting #5 573(AB) .272 .317 .522 .839

 

 

These are the only 3 spots where he's got any real sample size in that time...He's better in every catagory from the one hole...I'm not saying there is a good explanation for it...but those are the numbers.

 

I know the numbers, and they prove nothing. In one season he did better from the 3 or 5 than he did in the leadoff. It's meaningless.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

How is it a big gamble for a 32 year old to play up to his career norms? He had a bad 200 at bats. He's been very solid throughout his carerr vs RHP.

 

Because mediocre players routinely disappear quickly in their 30's. Think Troy O'Leary who was very similar to Jones and out of the league by 33. Another br.com comparable is Mel Hall, done at 31. Remember Jeff Blauser? Mediocre career highlighted by a resurgent age 31 season, which was followed by a disastrous 32 and 33 season before he was gone. He's not good and past his prime, assuming this has been a fluke is a big gamble.

Man I hate to defend Jones but I'm just not buying it. Two players off the top of my head that compare to Jones are Shannon Stewart and Tori Hunter. Hunter is 31 and Stewart is 33. Both are having very solid years. I just don't think there's this magic age number where players just fall off a cliff. It's a slow, sometimes steady decline and after Jones numbers last year there's no way he's at the end of his career.

 

Stewart is coming off the 2 worst years of his career. He's also a better hitter than Jones and more patient.

[jersey cubs fan]

How is it a big gamble for a 32 year old to play up to his career norms? He had a bad 200 at bats. He's been very solid throughout his carerr vs RHP.

 

Because mediocre players routinely disappear quickly in their 30's. Think Troy O'Leary who was very similar to Jones and out of the league by 33. Another br.com comparable is Mel Hall, done at 31. Remember Jeff Blauser? Mediocre career highlighted by a resurgent age 31 season, which was followed by a disastrous 32 and 33 season before he was gone. He's not good and past his prime, assuming this has been a fluke is a big gamble.

Man I hate to defend Jones but I'm just not buying it. Two players off the top of my head that compare to Jones are Shannon Stewart and Tori Hunter. Hunter is 31 and Stewart is 33. Both are having very solid years. I just don't think there's this magic age number where players just fall off a cliff. It's a slow, sometimes steady decline and after Jones numbers last year there's no way he's at the end of his career.

 

The problem is you think it's magic. It's not magic, it's nature. The thing is, Jacque has already fallen off a cliff. It's not like he's playing well and I'm predicting he will fall. He has already fallen. Assuming he'll bounce back is foolish. Hoping he'll bounce back? Fine. But to pretend it's not a gamble is just ridiculous. It happens all the time. Mediocre players disappear rather quickly in their 30's. Some may stick around to cash their checks, but that's about it. Jones could 800 OPS the rest of the season and carry that into 2008. But it's a significant gamble. Guys who generally don't hit for average, strike out a lot and don't draw walks don't exactly have long shelf lives.

[moorecg]

Batting #1 706(AB) .289 .354 .574 .928

Batting #3 557(AB) .264 .315 .458 .773

Batting #5 573(AB) .272 .317 .522 .839

 

 

These are the only 3 spots where he's got any real sample size in that time...He's better in every catagory from the one hole...I'm not saying there is a good explanation for it...but those are the numbers.

 

I know the numbers, and they prove nothing. In one season he did better from the 3 or 5 than he did in the leadoff. It's meaningless.

 

I thought numbers were the only thing that proved anything around here...

 

 

As for being meaningless....so is stepping on the chalk line (or not stepping on it) when you walk on the field...but its "important" to some players, I believe MLB players perform better in situations which they are comfortable...if the one hole is where Soriano is comfortable (or if having Pie makes him more so) I'm ok with it...

 

I see this discussion quickly devolving into the "chemistry" argument and other unquantifiable issues so it really isn't worth pursuing...I just orignally thought it worthy of note that Soriano really seemed to like having Pie around.

[Soul]

How is it a big gamble for a 32 year old to play up to his career norms? He had a bad 200 at bats. He's been very solid throughout his carerr vs RHP.

 

Because mediocre players routinely disappear quickly in their 30's. Think Troy O'Leary who was very similar to Jones and out of the league by 33. Another br.com comparable is Mel Hall, done at 31. Remember Jeff Blauser? Mediocre career highlighted by a resurgent age 31 season, which was followed by a disastrous 32 and 33 season before he was gone. He's not good and past his prime, assuming this has been a fluke is a big gamble.

Man I hate to defend Jones but I'm just not buying it. Two players off the top of my head that compare to Jones are Shannon Stewart and Tori Hunter. Hunter is 31 and Stewart is 33. Both are having very solid years. I just don't think there's this magic age number where players just fall off a cliff. It's a slow, sometimes steady decline and after Jones numbers last year there's no way he's at the end of his career.

 

The problem is you think it's magic. It's not magic, it's nature. The thing is, Jacque has already fallen off a cliff. It's not like he's playing well and I'm predicting he will fall. He has already fallen. Assuming he'll bounce back is foolish. Hoping he'll bounce back? Fine. But to pretend it's not a gamble is just ridiculous. It happens all the time. Mediocre players disappear rather quickly in their 30's. Some may stick around to cash their checks, but that's about it. Jones could 800 OPS the rest of the season and carry that into 2008. But it's a significant gamble. Guys who generally don't hit for average, strike out a lot and don't draw walks don't exactly have long shelf lives.

 

How's it a gamble, goony? We already know we'd get nothing with Pie, for sure. A gamble implies there's something we would have had, but lost by playing Jones. What exactly is that? Pie sucks at the plate and 100% will continue to at least through this year. Pie's a future prospect, hoping he will somehow produce this year is more problematic than hoping Jones will.

 

Unless you're talking about a trade or something...

[nick23]

How is it a big gamble for a 32 year old to play up to his career norms? He had a bad 200 at bats. He's been very solid throughout his carerr vs RHP.

 

Because mediocre players routinely disappear quickly in their 30's. Think Troy O'Leary who was very similar to Jones and out of the league by 33. Another br.com comparable is Mel Hall, done at 31. Remember Jeff Blauser? Mediocre career highlighted by a resurgent age 31 season, which was followed by a disastrous 32 and 33 season before he was gone. He's not good and past his prime, assuming this has been a fluke is a big gamble.

Man I hate to defend Jones but I'm just not buying it. Two players off the top of my head that compare to Jones are Shannon Stewart and Tori Hunter. Hunter is 31 and Stewart is 33. Both are having very solid years. I just don't think there's this magic age number where players just fall off a cliff. It's a slow, sometimes steady decline and after Jones numbers last year there's no way he's at the end of his career.

 

The problem is you think it's magic. It's not magic, it's nature. The thing is, Jacque has already fallen off a cliff. It's not like he's playing well and I'm predicting he will fall. He has already fallen. Assuming he'll bounce back is foolish. Hoping he'll bounce back? Fine. But to pretend it's not a gamble is just ridiculous. It happens all the time. Mediocre players disappear rather quickly in their 30's. Some may stick around to cash their checks, but that's about it. Jones could 800 OPS the rest of the season and carry that into 2008. But it's a significant gamble. Guys who generally don't hit for average, strike out a lot and don't draw walks don't exactly have long shelf lives.

I just don't think a bad half season coming off a good season means he's already fallen. I understand he's 32 and leaving his prime years but I still think he's a better bet to hit RHP the rest of the season. He's never not hit righties.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

How's it a gamble, goony? We already know we'd get nothing with Pie, for sure. A gamble implies there's something we would have had, but lost by playing Jones. What exactly is that? Pie sucks at the plate and 100% will continue to at least through this year. Pie's a future prospect, hoping he will somehow produce this year is more problematic than hoping Jones will.

 

No, no, no, no, a hundred times no.

[JonnyRed]

This may be a stupid reason...but I really don't like the move that much because of its potential effect on Soriano...for some reason Fonzie seems to love Pie and his numbers with Pie up are better than with him down...if the cost of getting him to perform up to his contract is keeping Pie in the bigs (and keeping Jones out of the line up), its a price I'm happy to pay.

 

Maybe this is nothing...but I've heard it mentioned before and it comes to mind now.

I don't believe that. I think it's more of coincidence over anything else.

 

I don't think it's far fetched that Soriano would be a little more motivated playing next to a player he has taken under his wing. I heard that Pie was staying with Zo, at first they were batting next to each other and playing next to each other in the OF. Soriano seemed to pick up shortly after Pie was recalled, and you can't discount the Cubs winning percentage with Pie in the lineup.

 

I was disappointed to see Pie sent down (especially so we could carry 3 catchers). The kid has done everything he could in the minors, and it was time to let him grow into a MLB player. Few rookies come into the league on fire each year, and we could have used his glove and speed in the lineup until the bat warmed up. His average seemed to slip when his PT diminished. And it's not like we have a stellar replacement for him. JJ is worthless this season and Pagan isn't an everyday player.

[YearofDaCubs]

This may be a stupid reason...but I really don't like the move that much because of its potential effect on Soriano...for some reason Fonzie seems to love Pie and his numbers with Pie up are better than with him down...if the cost of getting him to perform up to his contract is keeping Pie in the bigs (and keeping Jones out of the line up), its a price I'm happy to pay.

 

Maybe this is nothing...but I've heard it mentioned before and it comes to mind now.

I don't believe that. I think it's more of coincidence over anything else.

 

I don't think it's far fetched that Soriano would be a little more motivated playing next to a player he has taken under his wing. I heard that Pie was staying with Zo, at first they were batting next to each other and playing next to each other in the OF. Soriano seemed to pick up shortly after Pie was recalled, and you can't discount the Cubs winning percentage with Pie in the lineup.

 

I was disappointed to see Pie sent down (especially so we could carry 3 catchers). The kid has done everything he could in the minors, and it was time to let him grow into a MLB player. Few rookies come into the league on fire each year, and we could have used his glove and speed in the lineup until the bat warmed up. His average seemed to slip when his PT diminished. And it's not like we have a stellar replacement for him. JJ is worthless this season and Pagan isn't an everyday player.

I would love to leave Pie at CF and upgrade C or SS. Problem is, Lou doesn't want that so I feel better having him in the minors getting atbats than rotting on the bench. Pagan and Jones suck but what can we do? The cards have been dealt, at least for the moment.