Levine: Soto called up; 3 teams interested in Izturis

[jersey cubs fan]

I thought numbers were the only thing that proved anything around here...

 

 

And the numbers have shown he hasn't always performed better in the 1 hole.

 

He's been a leadoff hitter most of his career. He was at his best early, before teams figured him out. They realized you didn't have to throw him strikes and he started to decline. That coincided with the move away from leadoff. He made an adjustment with patience last year and got much better. That coincided with a move back to leadoff. Circumstances have played a part in his numbers being better at leadoff.

[nick23]

This may be a stupid reason...but I really don't like the move that much because of its potential effect on Soriano...for some reason Fonzie seems to love Pie and his numbers with Pie up are better than with him down...if the cost of getting him to perform up to his contract is keeping Pie in the bigs (and keeping Jones out of the line up), its a price I'm happy to pay.

 

Maybe this is nothing...but I've heard it mentioned before and it comes to mind now.

I don't believe that. I think it's more of coincidence over anything else.

 

I don't think it's far fetched that Soriano would be a little more motivated playing next to a player he has taken under his wing. I heard that Pie was staying with Zo, at first they were batting next to each other and playing next to each other in the OF. Soriano seemed to pick up shortly after Pie was recalled, and you can't discount the Cubs winning percentage with Pie in the lineup.

 

I was disappointed to see Pie sent down (especially so we could carry 3 catchers). The kid has done everything he could in the minors, and it was time to let him grow into a MLB player. Few rookies come into the league on fire each year, and we could have used his glove and speed in the lineup until the bat warmed up. His average seemed to slip when his PT diminished. And it's not like we have a stellar replacement for him. JJ is worthless this season and Pagan isn't an everyday player.

I think you absolutely can discount the Cubs winning percentage with Pie in the lineup because he had very little to do with the winning.

[jersey cubs fan]

How's it a gamble, goony? We already know we'd get nothing with Pie, for sure. A gamble implies there's something we would have had, but lost by playing Jones. What exactly is that? Pie sucks at the plate and 100% will continue to at least through this year. ..

 

You know this?

 

If you don't see it has a gamble, that is, Jones reversing course and suddenly producing for the next three months, well, I'd like to be on the other end of every transaction you make the rest of your life.

[cubfan]

I didn't really think it was a question of if Jones can get back to his career avg as much as a question if Jones could out preform Pie for the rest of the year. I think it would be a gamble to expect Jones to get back to his career avg, but not as much of a gamble to expect him to out produce Pie for the rest of the year. Jones could repeat his first half and have numbers similar to what Pie might put up.

For each example of a 30+ player that fell off a cliff never to be heard from again I can give you an example of a prospect similar to Pie that dosen't make it. I would be just as happy if they gave the job to Pie due to him having some upside but I wouldn't call it a big gamble to go with Jones.

[Cubfan_N_nebraska]

If Pie can get on track, meaning they work on his approach at the plate, he will be the type of player everyone is looking for. Jones is struggling no doubt but he has expirence and thus a better chance of breaking out of the funk he is in. As far as the Izturis interest any GM that acquires him will be the laughing stock of his town. Hendry screwed that one up. I think he knows that and he also knows he's stuck with the mess. We got the Dodgers with the Hundley deal and they got us back with the Maddog deal!

[jersey cubs fan]

I just don't think a bad half season coming off a good season means he's already fallen. I understand he's 32 and leaving his prime years but I still think he's a better bet to hit RHP the rest of the season. He's never not hit righties.

 

Except he isn't hitting them now, and has had similar bad stretches in the past. People need to stop pretending Jones routinely owns RH pitching. When he's at his best, he's pretty good vs RHP.

 

He has fallen. Whether he can get back up is in question. That's why it's a gamble.

[nilodnayr]

If this was a pure baseball decision, Pie should be out there everyday. But, I believe they are showcasing Jones in CF and hoping he gets hot to elevate his trade value. As of now, it seems like Jim hasn't been able to get a trade he accepts and putting Jones on the bench isn't going to help that.

[nick23]

I just don't think a bad half season coming off a good season means he's already fallen. I understand he's 32 and leaving his prime years but I still think he's a better bet to hit RHP the rest of the season. He's never not hit righties.

 

Except he isn't hitting them now, and has had similar bad stretches in the past. People need to stop pretending Jones routinely owns RH pitching. When he's at his best, he's pretty good vs RHP.

 

He has fallen. Whether he can get back up is in question. That's why it's a gamble.

I'm not pretending anything. He's .292/.341.485 against RHP for his career. He hits righties. I'll go on his last 1000 at bats against righties rather than his last 150. By the way last year he hit .303/.358/.528 against them.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm not pretending anything. He's .292/.341.485 against RHP for his career. He hits righties. I'll go on his last 1000 at bats against righties rather than his last 150.

 

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Obviously over the course of his career, Jones has hit decently vs RHP. At times he has not, however. Including 2004, and 2007. He's had a mediocre career, where he's hit for okay average, struck out a lot, and drawn very few walks. He's got a very poor skill set for anybody hoping to have a longer than usual successful career. And his lack of skills make him a good candidate for somebody who will be worthless at a relatively young age. I do not know if he's done. I don't know if he's got another year or three in him. But I do know he's been awful for a very long stretch, and that he is no guarantee to bounce back. This isn't ARod having an off year. This isn't Vladdy struggling a bit, or even Paul Konerko struggling. This is a mediocre player on the wrong side of 30 with a very unattractive skill set in the midst of a prolonged struggle, and it's a gamble to expect him to bounce back.

[Soul]

How's it a gamble, goony? We already know we'd get nothing with Pie, for sure. A gamble implies there's something we would have had, but lost by playing Jones. What exactly is that? Pie sucks at the plate and 100% will continue to at least through this year. ..

 

You know this?

 

If you don't see it has a gamble, that is, Jones reversing course and suddenly producing for the next three months, well, I'd like to be on the other end of every transaction you make the rest of your life.

 

Nice. You're getting on me for flaws of logic when you're counting on production from a prospect who has never produced, then calling it a 'gamble' to play Jones based on that assumption?

 

Come back to the dugout from left field, goony. The inning's over.

[killthegoat06]

I'm a little late, but 3 catchers!?!

[nick23]

I'm not pretending anything. He's .292/.341.485 against RHP for his career. He hits righties. I'll go on his last 1000 at bats against righties rather than his last 150.

 

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Obviously over the course of his career, Jones has hit decently vs RHP. At times he has not, however. Including 2004, and 2007. He's had a mediocre career, where he's hit for okay average, struck out a lot, and drawn very few walks. He's got a very poor skill set for anybody hoping to have a longer than usual successful career. And his lack of skills make him a good candidate for somebody who will be worthless at a relatively young age. I do not know if he's done. I don't know if he's got another year or three in him. But I do know he's been awful for a very long stretch, and that he is no guarantee to bounce back. This isn't ARod having an off year. This isn't Vladdy struggling a bit, or even Paul Konerko struggling. This is a mediocre player on the wrong side of 30 with a very unattractive skill set in the midst of a prolonged struggle, and it's a gamble to expect him to bounce back.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm not expecting Jones to light the world on fire in the second half. I am however fully expecting him to outproduce Pie by a wide margin. That's how this whole discussion got started. To me Jones first half vs RHP was much more of a fluke than his prior 3 seasons. Before you come back at me I do understand that Jones has a very flawed skillset that makes him vulnerable to steady decline. I just don't think he's there yet. IMO if you're trying to win this year, you play Jones over Pie vs RHP.

[Elrhino]

I'm a little late, but 3 catchers!?!

 

With a 4th one reportedly on the verge of coming back from injury.

[davearm]

Does anyone think besides me they sent Pie down to showcase Jones?

 

I believe that was the primary reason. They want to start the 2nd half with Jones playing CF, and hope he plays well enough to garner interest in a trade.

I'm not buying the "showcase" theory.

 

There's no point in "showcasing" Jones. You do that with prospects, not guys that have been in the league for 10 years.

 

Everybody knows the book on Jacque Jones (decent vs RHP, lousy vs LHP, very streaky, semi-versatile in the OF, etc).

 

The next few weeks aren't going to rewrite that book in any meaningful way.

[jersey cubs fan]

How's it a gamble, goony? We already know we'd get nothing with Pie, for sure. A gamble implies there's something we would have had, but lost by playing Jones. What exactly is that? Pie sucks at the plate and 100% will continue to at least through this year. ..

 

You know this?

 

If you don't see it has a gamble, that is, Jones reversing course and suddenly producing for the next three months, well, I'd like to be on the other end of every transaction you make the rest of your life.

 

Nice. You're getting on me for flaws of logic when you're counting on production from a prospect who has never produced, then calling it a 'gamble' to play Jones based on that assumption?

 

Come back to the dugout from left field, goony. The inning's over.

 

Counting on production from a prospect?

 

I'm calling it a gamble to count on Jones to bounce back. Some people assume it'll happen.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm not expecting Jones to light the world on fire in the second half. I am however fully expecting him to outproduce Pie by a wide margin.

 

And that is a gamble, due to the fact that he currently is not and there's a signficant chance he won't get better.

[Soul]

How's it a gamble, goony? We already know we'd get nothing with Pie, for sure. A gamble implies there's something we would have had, but lost by playing Jones. What exactly is that? Pie sucks at the plate and 100% will continue to at least through this year. ..

 

You know this?

 

If you don't see it has a gamble, that is, Jones reversing course and suddenly producing for the next three months, well, I'd like to be on the other end of every transaction you make the rest of your life.

 

Nice. You're getting on me for flaws of logic when you're counting on production from a prospect who has never produced, then calling it a 'gamble' to play Jones based on that assumption?

 

Come back to the dugout from left field, goony. The inning's over.

 

Counting on production from a prospect?

 

I'm calling it a gamble to count on Jones to bounce back. Some people assume it'll happen.

 

Think of it this way: what will we lose if he doesn't bounce back?

[jersey cubs fan]

Does anyone think besides me they sent Pie down to showcase Jones?

 

I believe that was the primary reason. They want to start the 2nd half with Jones playing CF, and hope he plays well enough to garner interest in a trade.

I'm not buying the "showcase" theory.

 

There's no point in "showcasing" Jones. You do that with prospects, not guys that have been in the league for 10 years.

 

Everybody knows the book on Jacque Jones (decent vs RHP, lousy vs LHP, very streaky, semi-versatile in the OF, etc).

 

The next few weeks aren't going to rewrite that book in any meaningful way.

 

It's not a matter of rewriting a book. It's about convincing somebody that the first half was a fluke and that he actually does have something left. That is what is in doubt here. Nobody knows if he's done.

[jersey cubs fan]

what will we lose if he doesn't bounce back?

 

baseball games

[Ding Dong Johnson]

set and spike

[Soul]

what will we lose if he doesn't bounce back?

 

baseball games

 

And who in his place would win them? That's what I don't think you are comprehending here.

 

Do you really think Pie's going to do this? There's far less chance of that than Jones putting up better numbers, IMO.

[Cubfan_N_nebraska]

Sending Pie down to work on his approach at the plate in the minors is a big mistake. They pitch differently in the minors and he needs to learn how to change his approach at the major league level. Jones is a veteran and will soon figure out what his major malfunction has been. As far as Izturis. Hendry got away with one with Hundley deal and the baseball gods got him back with the Maddog deal!

[jersey cubs fan]

what will we lose if he doesn't bounce back?

 

baseball games

 

And who in his place would win them? That's what I don't think you are comprehending here.

 

Do you really think Pie's going to do this? There's far less chance of that than Jones putting up better numbers, IMO.

 

I disagree.

 

There might be a better chance, but at best it's slight. I'm not railing on the transaction. I'm pointing out that it's a gamble to expect Jones to improve and some people are pretending it's not.

[Soul]

what will we lose if he doesn't bounce back?

 

baseball games

 

And who in his place would win them? That's what I don't think you are comprehending here.

 

Do you really think Pie's going to do this? There's far less chance of that than Jones putting up better numbers, IMO.

 

I disagree.

 

There might be a better chance, but at best it's slight. I'm not railing on the transaction. I'm pointing out that it's a gamble to expect Jones to improve and some people are pretending it's not.

 

I guess if you're expecting it to happen then yeah you might be in for an unpleasant suprise.

 

We've been hoping for a CF transaction since the winter meetings and it hasn't happened. I like to think most of us went into this season knowing CF would likely be an issue, but maybe not.

[davearm]

Does anyone think besides me they sent Pie down to showcase Jones?

 

I believe that was the primary reason. They want to start the 2nd half with Jones playing CF, and hope he plays well enough to garner interest in a trade.

I'm not buying the "showcase" theory.

 

There's no point in "showcasing" Jones. You do that with prospects, not guys that have been in the league for 10 years.

 

Everybody knows the book on Jacque Jones (decent vs RHP, lousy vs LHP, very streaky, semi-versatile in the OF, etc).

 

The next few weeks aren't going to rewrite that book in any meaningful way.

 

It's not a matter of rewriting a book. It's about convincing somebody that the first half was a fluke and that he actually does have something left. That is what is in doubt here. Nobody knows if he's done.

So we're going to get that question answered in the next few weeks here?