The Chicago Bulls 2007 Offseason Thread

[Exile on Waveland]

All superstars don't win titles. However, basically every team that wins a title has a superstar (actually, most have two). So, citing the exception-that-proves-the-rule Pistons or a few stars that haven't won is neither cogent nor persuasive.

How cogent is my Wolves of the East example?

 

Very. Gutting the entire team for Kobe isn't a good idea. If the Bulls enter next season with something like Duhon-Bryant-Nocioni-Brown(?)-Wallace, I don't think they're much better off, and they are certainly worse off long term.

There is no chance that would be the team. One of Hinrich or Gordon will be here. One of Deng or Thomas would be as well, I believe.

I've seen a lot of suggested trades involving one of the guards, Deng, Thomas, and this year's first rounder.

 

That was my point. If that was the deal, I'd pass. As great as Kobe is, you can't give up your entire team for him. If you do, then you're basically the Lakers.

[XZero771679666304]

All superstars don't win titles. However, basically every team that wins a title has a superstar (actually, most have two). So, citing the exception-that-proves-the-rule Pistons or a few stars that haven't won is neither cogent nor persuasive.

How cogent is my Wolves of the East example?

 

Very. Gutting the entire team for Kobe isn't a good idea. If the Bulls enter next season with something like Duhon-Bryant-Nocioni-Brown(?)-Wallace, I don't think they're much better off, and they are certainly worse off long term.

 

I would think Kobe could be had without totally gutting the team. maybe Gordon, Deng and Duhon/Hinrich for Kobe and a throw-in. Then draft the best available PG.

 

That would leave Conley/Law/Hinrich/Duhon, Bryant, Nocioni, Thomas and Wallace. I think if Bryant were aquired, it would negate the need to draft a scorer like Julian Wright.

 

Waht Kobe was missing in L.A. post-Shaq was a good point and a competent inside game. He would have both in that scenario, IMO.

[Keener98]

All superstars don't win titles. However, basically every team that wins a title has a superstar (actually, most have two). So, citing the exception-that-proves-the-rule Pistons or a few stars that haven't won is neither cogent nor persuasive.

How cogent is my Wolves of the East example?

 

Very. Gutting the entire team for Kobe isn't a good idea. If the Bulls enter next season with something like Duhon-Bryant-Nocioni-Brown(?)-Wallace, I don't think they're much better off, and they are certainly worse off long term.

There is no chance that would be the team. One of Hinrich or Gordon will be here. One of Deng or Thomas would be as well, I believe.

I've seen a lot of suggested trades involving one of the guards, Deng, Thomas, and this year's first rounder.

 

Thats too much in my opinion from the Bulls standpoint. 1 of the guards 1 of Deng or Thomas, 9 pick, and maybe a future number 1 is what Id be wiling to give.

[Keener98]

All superstars don't win titles. However, basically every team that wins a title has a superstar (actually, most have two). So, citing the exception-that-proves-the-rule Pistons or a few stars that haven't won is neither cogent nor persuasive.

How cogent is my Wolves of the East example?

 

Very. Gutting the entire team for Kobe isn't a good idea. If the Bulls enter next season with something like Duhon-Bryant-Nocioni-Brown(?)-Wallace, I don't think they're much better off, and they are certainly worse off long term.

 

I would think Kobe could be had without totally gutting the team. maybe Gordon, Deng and Duhon/Hinrich for Kobe and a throw-in. Then draft the best available PG.

 

That would leave Conley/Law/Hinrich/Duhon, Bryant, Nocioni, Thomas and Wallace. I think if Bryant were aquired, it would negate the need to draft a scorer like Julian Wright.

 

Waht Kobe was missing in L.A. post-Shaq was a good point and a competent inside game. He would have both in that scenario, IMO.

 

I think any deal for Kobe, the 9 pick goes to the Lakers.

[1908]

As for Kobe, I'd push for Gordon-Nocioni (S & T)-Thomas/#9 pick and PJ Brown (S & T) if needed for salary purposes. If it gets to Deng-Gordon-Thomas/pick, I think I'd pass. I'd pass because the Bulls should be able to get something pretty damned good for Gordon-Nocioni-Thomas/pick and still have Deng, Hinrich and Thomas/pick.

I think Deng has to be part of the package as far as LA is concerned. I also don't see PJ as a willing sign and trade participant. You're not the first to suggest it, and maybe the money would talk. My gut says he either resigns with the Hornets or retires.

[XZero771679666304]

All superstars don't win titles. However, basically every team that wins a title has a superstar (actually, most have two). So, citing the exception-that-proves-the-rule Pistons or a few stars that haven't won is neither cogent nor persuasive.

How cogent is my Wolves of the East example?

 

Very. Gutting the entire team for Kobe isn't a good idea. If the Bulls enter next season with something like Duhon-Bryant-Nocioni-Brown(?)-Wallace, I don't think they're much better off, and they are certainly worse off long term.

 

I would think Kobe could be had without totally gutting the team. maybe Gordon, Deng and Duhon/Hinrich for Kobe and a throw-in. Then draft the best available PG.

 

That would leave Conley/Law/Hinrich/Duhon, Bryant, Nocioni, Thomas and Wallace. I think if Bryant were aquired, it would negate the need to draft a scorer like Julian Wright.

 

Waht Kobe was missing in L.A. post-Shaq was a good point and a competent inside game. He would have both in that scenario, IMO.

 

I think any deal for Kobe, the 9 pick goes to the Lakers.

 

Yeah, I re-thought that after I posted. So would a Hinrich/Kobe/Nocioni/Thomas/Wallace team really be that bad? I don't think so.

 

I am not the biggest fan of Kirk runnning the offense, but the defense would be spectacular, and less of the offensive burden would be on Hinrich.

[1908]

Thats too much in my opinion from the Bulls standpoint. 1 of the guards 1 of Deng or Thomas, 9 pick, and maybe a future number 1 is what Id be wiling to give.

Like I said, I'm all for a Kobe to Chicago trade that's clearly a win for the Bulls.

[Keener98]

Thats too much in my opinion from the Bulls standpoint. 1 of the guards 1 of Deng or Thomas, 9 pick, and maybe a future number 1 is what Id be wiling to give.

Like I said, I'm all for a Kobe to Chicago trade that's clearly a win for the Bulls.

 

Would you do something like I suggested here?

[Outshined_One]

Here's my thing...

 

I'm all for getting Kobe on the Bulls. Frankly, he's a superstar and he still has plenty of gas left in the tank. For all the grief he gets for being a me-first player, he also has had to deal with a horrendous supporting cast in recent years. If you give the guy a good team around him, I think he'll be a much better team player and those whispers about him not being a team player would go away. He wants to prove he can win a title with a team that is solely his own and I think he'd go to some extraordinary lengths to do so.

 

However, there's a problem with picking up Kobe. While he'd give the Bulls a lot, he does little to nothing when it comes to the Bulls' lack of a consistent and effective inside presence on the offensive and defensive glass. Let's face it, the Bulls need a big man down low who can score and open things up for everyone. Ben Wallace and PJ Brown don't inspire much in me when it comes to those things, especially considering their ages. Tyrus Thomas could develop into that guy, but I don't know if he'll ever have the size to be able to consistently take the punishment down there.

 

In all honesty, if the Bulls decide to do this trade, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they manage to hang onto at least one of Tyrus Thomas and the #9 for that very reason (or if they can somehow get Bynum along with Kobe). Kobe would be able to make up for pretty much any other player traded (and most combinations thereof), but otherwise...egh.

 

The Pistons series showed that this team needs a legitimate threat under the basket. Kobe won't give that to the Bulls.

[1908]

Yeah, I re-thought that after I posted. So would a Hinrich/Kobe/Nocioni/Thomas/Wallace team really be that bad? I don't think so.

How much better is that team than the current Lakers team? A lot would depend on Thomas' development. The window for winning it all would certainly shrink.

[Guest]

1908 has it right, just trading for a star player isn't going to help the Bulls - they have to keep the remaining parts and have fellow stars. Kobe is a star player in LA and hasn't gotten out of the first round since Shaq left. Look at Garnett in Minnesota, Pierce in Boston. A trade that guts the Bulls of its young, improving core is no better than the current superstar-less roster.

[1908]

Thats too much in my opinion from the Bulls standpoint. 1 of the guards 1 of Deng or Thomas, 9 pick, and maybe a future number 1 is what Id be wiling to give.

Like I said, I'm all for a Kobe to Chicago trade that's clearly a win for the Bulls.

 

Would you do something like I suggested here?

I would not do Gordon, Deng, lottery this year, and first rounder next year. Make it Hinrich and Thomas instead and I'd probably bite. I don't think that's enough.

[Guest]

Here's my thing...

 

I'm all for getting Kobe on the Bulls. Frankly, he's a superstar and he still has plenty of gas left in the tank. For all the grief he gets for being a me-first player, he also has had to deal with a horrendous supporting cast in recent years. If you give the guy a good team around him, I think he'll be a much better team player and those whispers about him not being a team player would go away. He wants to prove he can win a title with a team that is solely his own and I think he'd go to some extraordinary lengths to do so.

 

However, there's a problem with picking up Kobe. While he'd give the Bulls a lot, he does little to nothing when it comes to the Bulls' lack of a consistent and effective inside presence on the offensive and defensive glass. Let's face it, the Bulls need a big man down low who can score and open things up for everyone. Ben Wallace and PJ Brown don't inspire much in me when it comes to those things, especially considering their ages. Tyrus Thomas could develop into that guy, but I don't know if he'll ever have the size to be able to consistently take the punishment down there.

 

In all honesty, if the Bulls decide to do this trade, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they manage to hang onto at least one of Tyrus Thomas and the #9 for that very reason (or if they can somehow get Bynum along with Kobe). Kobe would be able to make up for pretty much any other player traded (and most combinations thereof), but otherwise...egh.

 

The Pistons series showed that this team needs a legitimate threat under the basket. Kobe won't give that to the Bulls.

 

Kobe would give the Bulls the backcourt size that they are sorely lacking with Hinrich-Gordon-Duhon as their primary guards and a player who can create his own shot when need be and those are the #2 and #3 biggest deficiencies on this team.

[1908]

Kobe would give the Bulls the backcourt size that they are sorely lacking with Hinrich-Gordon-Duhon as their primary guards and a player who can create his own shot when need be and those are the #2 and #3 biggest deficiencies on this team.

Kobe is also an solid defender, which is why I'd be willing to include Hinrich in a package for him.

[Exile on Waveland]

All superstars don't win titles. However, basically every team that wins a title has a superstar (actually, most have two). So, citing the exception-that-proves-the-rule Pistons or a few stars that haven't won is neither cogent nor persuasive.

How cogent is my Wolves of the East example?

 

Very. Gutting the entire team for Kobe isn't a good idea. If the Bulls enter next season with something like Duhon-Bryant-Nocioni-Brown(?)-Wallace, I don't think they're much better off, and they are certainly worse off long term.

 

I would think Kobe could be had without totally gutting the team. maybe Gordon, Deng and Duhon/Hinrich for Kobe and a throw-in. Then draft the best available PG.

 

That would leave Conley/Law/Hinrich/Duhon, Bryant, Nocioni, Thomas and Wallace. I think if Bryant were aquired, it would negate the need to draft a scorer like Julian Wright.

 

Waht Kobe was missing in L.A. post-Shaq was a good point and a competent inside game. He would have both in that scenario, IMO.

 

I agree, I doubt the Bulls would have to gut their team if Kobe is traded. I just simply meant the Bulls shouldn't give up everything the Lakers want. The T-Wolves of the East is a legitimate concern, although a few of their teams would easily win the East next season.

 

The #9 pick will likely be involved, if not, I don't suggest taking the best PG available. The team that takes Acie Law at #9 will be very disappointed. Not that he won't be good, but he's nowhere near the ninth-best prospect in the draft.

 

Julian Wright isn't a scorer. At least not yet. He's a skilled complementary player. Along with his size/length/athleticism, his best skill is his playmaking. Besides that, the Bulls don't (and wouldn't if the Kobe deal came to fruition) need scoring from the 3.

[Guest]

Kobe would give the Bulls the backcourt size that they are sorely lacking with Hinrich-Gordon-Duhon as their primary guards and a player who can create his own shot when need be and those are the #2 and #3 biggest deficiencies on this team.

Kobe is also an solid defender, which is why I'd be willing to include Hinrich in a package for him.

 

True, but I'd rather part with Gordon.

[Exile on Waveland]

Kobe would give the Bulls the backcourt size that they are sorely lacking with Hinrich-Gordon-Duhon as their primary guards and a player who can create his own shot when need be and those are the #2 and #3 biggest deficiencies on this team.

Kobe is also an solid defender, which is why I'd be willing to include Hinrich in a package for him.

 

True, but I'd rather part with Gordon.

 

Ha ha, of course. Hinrich is better than Gordon. I do think you (and the Bulls) might be in luck in this case. Gordon's scoring, which will be needed to "replace" Kobe's, will make him very attractive and maybe moreso than Hinrich. This is in the minds of NBA GM's, of which Kupchak is a poor one.

[Soul]

1908 has it right, just trading for a star player isn't going to help the Bulls - they have to keep the remaining parts and have fellow stars. Kobe is a star player in LA and hasn't gotten out of the first round since Shaq left. Look at Garnett in Minnesota, Pierce in Boston. A trade that guts the Bulls of its young, improving core is no better than the current superstar-less roster.

 

That's what I fear. Kobe, like other superstars, still needs to be paired with at least one other very good player. If we gave them Deng/Gordon then we'd have to hope TT comes through.

 

I'd take Kobe if it meant we could somehow keep Deng too, but that might be real hard to convince the Lakers to do.

[Guest]

1908 has it right, just trading for a star player isn't going to help the Bulls - they have to keep the remaining parts and have fellow stars. Kobe is a star player in LA and hasn't gotten out of the first round since Shaq left. Look at Garnett in Minnesota, Pierce in Boston. A trade that guts the Bulls of its young, improving core is no better than the current superstar-less roster.

 

That's what I fear. Kobe, like other superstars, still needs to be paired with at least one other very good player. If we gave them Deng/Gordon then we'd have to hope TT comes through.

 

I'd take Kobe if it meant we could somehow keep Deng too, but that might be real hard to convince the Lakers to do.

 

If you can keep Deng and Hinrich, I'd make the trade yesterday. (Gordon, TT, #9, Noc?) Don't know if the Lakers would do it.

[1908]

Kobe would give the Bulls the backcourt size that they are sorely lacking with Hinrich-Gordon-Duhon as their primary guards and a player who can create his own shot when need be and those are the #2 and #3 biggest deficiencies on this team.

Kobe is also an solid defender, which is why I'd be willing to include Hinrich in a package for him.

 

True, but I'd rather part with Gordon.

 

Ha ha, of course. Hinrich is better than Gordon. I do think you (and the Bulls) might be in luck in this case. Gordon's scoring, which will be needed to "replace" Kobe's, will make him very attractive and maybe moreso than Hinrich. This is in the minds of NBA GM's, of which Kupchak is a poor one.

Also in the minds of the stats heads:

18.31 PER - Gordon

17.09 PER - Hinrich

 

Ben's two years younger too. You could argue Kirk's a better fit with Kobe, but I think Ben's range would be a great compliment to Bryant's driving ability. Either way, I'd rather hold on to Gordon in most other instances.

[1908]

If you can keep Deng and Hinrich, I'd make the trade yesterday. (Gordon, TT, #9, Noc?) Don't know if the Lakers would do it.

I'd rather keep Thomas than Hinrich.

[rawaction]

A couple things.

 

The whole stars win titles thing: most teams have had 2 stars. Lakers had Shaq/Kobe, Lakers had Magic and Kareem, Celtics had Bird and McHale, Spurs have(had) Duncan/Robinson and now Parker, Bulls didn't win til Pippen became a great player. So, yeah gutting the team is a legit concern.

 

To me the key is Deng. If the Bulls can get Kobe, while keeping Deng, I really don't care who else they trade.

 

As for Kobe not being the Bulls biggest need, I disagree. Sure everyone would like a Gasol type player, but Kobe can hide the need for a big man. He basically negates a Rip Hamilton, Arenas, LeBron, Vince Carter in the East as he can outscore all of them and D them all up. Kobe and Deng would basically be like Jordan and Pippen. And certainly the Bulls can get at least as much out of Wallace and whoever plays the 4/5 that the 90s Bulls got from Cartwright, Perdue, Wennington, Rodman, and Horace.

[da bears]

A couple things.

 

The whole stars win titles thing: most teams have had 2 stars. Lakers had Shaq/Kobe, Lakers had Magic and Kareem, Celtics had Bird and McHale, Spurs have(had) Duncan/Robinson and now Parker, Bulls didn't win til Pippen became a great player. So, yeah gutting the team is a legit concern.

 

To me the key is Deng. If the Bulls can get Kobe, while keeping Deng, I really don't care who else they trade.

 

As for Kobe not being the Bulls biggest need, I disagree. Sure everyone would like a Gasol type player, but Kobe can hide the need for a big man. He basically negates a Rip Hamilton, Arenas, LeBron, Vince Carter in the East as he can outscore all of them and D them all up. Kobe and Deng would basically be like Jordan and Pippen. And certainly the Bulls can get at least as much out of Wallace and whoever plays the 4/5 that the 90s Bulls got from Cartwright, Perdue, Wennington, Rodman, and Horace.

 

Very well put.

 

I think I'm with you on the Deng part. If we can keep Deng, I think I'd be willing to give up nearly everyone else. I think the biggest key is definitely keeping one of Ty and Deng. If the Lakers say they will only talk if both are involved, then I would peace out if I was Paxson.

[DivineBovine]

If you can keep Deng and Hinrich, I'd make the trade yesterday. (Gordon, TT, #9, Noc?) Don't know if the Lakers would do it.

I'd rather keep Thomas than Hinrich.

 

 

Me too.

 

I think that if there's a time to move Hinrich, its now. I hate to say it, but he's overrated. A great role player, but he is no star. I'd also move Deng, if that's what it takes. Deng has the most trade value on the team, and he's a rock solid player. That said, I'd give him up yesterday if that's what it took to get Kobe Bryant.

 

Kobe is the best player in the NBA, period. If the Bulls had some team left- ie Wallace, TT or Nocioni, BG or Hinrich, they'd be clear contenders. There are few people in the league that can create their own shot and score, even when everyone on the floor knows they are going to get the ball. You can barely count them on 1 hand, and Kobe is the best there is right now.

 

And anyone who thinks the deal can possibly be done by keeping Deng + Gordon or Hinrich is crazy. At least I'll be super impressed if Paxson manages to pull that one off.

[DivineBovine]

A couple things.

 

The whole stars win titles thing: most teams have had 2 stars. Lakers had Shaq/Kobe, Lakers had Magic and Kareem, Celtics had Bird and McHale, Spurs have(had) Duncan/Robinson and now Parker, Bulls didn't win til Pippen became a great player. So, yeah gutting the team is a legit concern.

 

To me the key is Deng. If the Bulls can get Kobe, while keeping Deng, I really don't care who else they trade.

 

As for Kobe not being the Bulls biggest need, I disagree. Sure everyone would like a Gasol type player, but Kobe can hide the need for a big man. He basically negates a Rip Hamilton, Arenas, LeBron, Vince Carter in the East as he can outscore all of them and D them all up. Kobe and Deng would basically be like Jordan and Pippen. And certainly the Bulls can get at least as much out of Wallace and whoever plays the 4/5 that the 90s Bulls got from Cartwright, Perdue, Wennington, Rodman, and Horace.

 

 

I don't buy the 2 stars thing really. The Bulls have none, and they aren't as far as you might think. I'd say that one reason everyone views Pippen, McHale, and Parker as stars is because they had Jordan, Bird and Duncan. Yeah, they are all great players, but if they played for crappy teams, you'd view them differently. If the Bulls were able to win with Kobe, all the sudden players like Gordon, Nocioni, Hinrich, and Thomas would be stars.

 

 

With the current Bulls team, I think their biggest need is for a guy that can create a shot and score. Their offense is too reliant on motion and execution. They can go cold for long periods when they get sloppy. Nobody can take the ball and create his own shot. They basically need a player or players who give them more of a margin for error. Whether its a guy who can catch it in the post and demand a double team (ie a big man) or a guy who can score at will off the dribble or with a turnaround jump shot (ie Kobe), I don't think it matters much. Either will do just fine.

 

Personally, I'd prefer watching a team with a stellar shooting guard/small forward. All this talk about how teams need a low post presence to win is nonsense. The Bulls never had one, and they got 6 rings. Bill Cartwright and Will Perdue don't count.