2016 World Series Game 7 watch-along with Maddon/Francona

[Irrelevant Dude]

MLB Network showed Game 7 of the World Series tonight with Maddon and Francona in studio alongside Bob Costas and Tom Verducci.  There was nothing particularly revealing from either manager, but it was still fun to watch.  If anyone missed it (and I assume a lot of people did considering I didn't find out about it until shortly before it started), they have it on their schedule again Saturday morning at 10:00.

Amazingly, I haven't re-watched Game 7 in its entirety since it happened.  I'm not sure this counts as watching the game in its entirety, since they skipped over a lot, but it is the closest I have come.

Some of my takeaways from watching the game again were:

- I was very critical of Maddon taking Hendricks out in the 5th at the time, but I had forgotten how good Lester actually was in relief. The two runs that scored against him in the 5th were more of a fluke than anything, and he locked things down after that.  In hindsight, going to Chapman in the 8th was the worse move of the two.

- Hendricks should have been out of the 5th inning if not for Strike 3 clearly in the zone being called a ball. I can't imagine our reactions to that pitch if the Guardians had ended up winning and I am thankful that is only an extremely minor footnote now.

- I was still uncomfortable watching the game even knowing the outcome. Sitting in the exact same spot on the couch I was on 8 years ago, I'm pretty sure I reacted to the Rajai Davis home run almost the same way.  I impulsively put my hands on top of my head, as if in complete shock, even after all these years.

- I still can't get enough of Rizzo's nervous conversation with David Ross that was captured in the dugout.  He was all of us at that point in time.

 - Lastly, why isn't Joe Maddon more beloved in Chicago?  Despite some nearly-critical missteps in the World Series, he is still the manager who led the team to their first title in 108 years.  He has as many championships as Ditka, yet is nowhere near as revered.  The way his tenure ended was obviously disappointing, but the same could be said for Ditka as well.  Maddon has an eccentric personality, but he has always seemed like a generally likeable guy.  So what is it that has kept him largely out of the conversation in Chicago?  Maybe he just hasn't embraced the opportunity to become that type of figure? Has he even been back to Wrigley Field in the past several years?  Is it still too soon after his tenure with the Cubs?  Or maybe he just doesn't want to be a distraction to the current team.  It is possible things will change as time goes on and there are reunions, anniversary celebrations, etc, but it doesn't seem like he will ever take center stage as one of the most important figures in Cubs history.

 

Anyway, I initially started this post simply to let everyone know about the special on MLB Network. I guess it turned into a bit more than that.

[BigbadB]

7 hours ago, Irrelevant Dude said:

MLB Network showed Game 7 of the World Series tonight with Maddon and Francona in studio alongside Bob Costas and Tom Verducci.  There was nothing particularly revealing from either manager, but it was still fun to watch.  If anyone missed it (and I assume a lot of people did considering I didn't find out about it until shortly before it started), they have it on their schedule again Saturday morning at 10:00.

Amazingly, I haven't re-watched Game 7 in its entirety since it happened.  I'm not sure this counts as watching the game in its entirety, since they skipped over a lot, but it is the closest I have come.

Some of my takeaways from watching the game again were:

- I was very critical of Maddon taking Hendricks out in the 5th at the time, but I had forgotten how good Lester actually was in relief. The two runs that scored against him in the 5th were more of a fluke than anything, and he locked things down after that.  In hindsight, going to Chapman in the 8th was the worse move of the two.

- Hendricks should have been out of the 5th inning if not for Strike 3 clearly in the zone being called a ball. I can't imagine our reactions to that pitch if the Guardians had ended up winning and I am thankful that is only an extremely minor footnote now.

- I was still uncomfortable watching the game even knowing the outcome. Sitting in the exact same spot on the couch I was on 8 years ago, I'm pretty sure I reacted to the Rajai Davis home run almost the same way.  I impulsively put my hands on top of my head, as if in complete shock, even after all these years.

- I still can't get enough of Rizzo's nervous conversation with David Ross that was captured in the dugout.  He was all of us at that point in time.

 - Lastly, why isn't Joe Maddon more beloved in Chicago?  Despite some nearly-critical missteps in the World Series, he is still the manager who led the team to their first title in 108 years.  He has as many championships as Ditka, yet is nowhere near as revered.  The way his tenure ended was obviously disappointing, but the same could be said for Ditka as well.  Maddon has an eccentric personality, but he has always seemed like a generally likeable guy.  So what is it that has kept him largely out of the conversation in Chicago?  Maybe he just hasn't embraced the opportunity to become that type of figure? Has he even been back to Wrigley Field in the past several years?  Is it still too soon after his tenure with the Cubs?  Or maybe he just doesn't want to be a distraction to the current team.  It is possible things will change as time goes on and there are reunions, anniversary celebrations, etc, but it doesn't seem like he will ever take center stage as one of the most important figures in Cubs history.

 

Anyway, I initially started this post simply to let everyone know about the special on MLB Network. I guess it turned into a bit more than that.

I had that game saved on my DVR on my tv for the longest time. Never did watch it again, but figured I would at some point. I moved since then and all saved DVR material was lost since I couldn't continue with my previous cable service where I was moving to. I guess I'll have to record whatever they show this Saturday morning. Thanks for the info. Should be a fun watch sometime Saturday, or maybe an even warmer Spring Day since it already seems like Spring in my part of the world.

[squally1313]

37 minutes ago, BigbadB said:

I had that game saved on my DVR on my tv for the longest time. Never did watch it again, but figured I would at some point. I moved since then and all saved DVR material was lost since I couldn't continue with my previous cable service where I was moving to. I guess I'll have to record whatever they show this Saturday morning. Thanks for the info. Should be a fun watch sometime Saturday, or maybe an even warmer Spring Day since it already seems like Spring in my part of the world.

Fairly sure the entire game is on Youtube and there are versions as chopped up as you want to be (5 minute version, 10 minute version, 30 minute version). It remains mind blowing to me that the entire World Series drought built up to a WS game 7 as incredible as that one. The watch along was on at the bar last night, so many good moments. 

[BigbadB]

4 minutes ago, squally1313 said:

Fairly sure the entire game is on Youtube and there are versions as chopped up as you want to be (5 minute version, 10 minute version, 30 minute version). It remains mind blowing to me that the entire World Series drought built up to a WS game 7 as incredible as that one. The watch along was on at the bar last night, so many good moments. 

My bar tab was over $400 that night. I was in San Diego at that time and it was just the wife and me along with a friend from San Jose sitting there together in the center of the bar with the biggest big screen tv directly in front of us. The owner of the bar saved us those seats. While no one else was a Cubs fan, we pretty much knew everyone else in there and the place was packed, and everyone was pretty much cheering for the Cubs on our behalf. As most were Padres fans, they too knew our pain and suffering as fans.

It will always live as the greatest game I ever saw, and it was worth every penny of that hefty bar tab. Once I have a better data plan for my internet (my satellite internet sucks balls), I'll rewatch the full game again at some point. For now, my DirecTV recording doesn't count towards my data, so it will help get me primed for baseball season.

[Bertz]

8 hours ago, Irrelevant Dude said:

Maddon has an eccentric personality, but he has always seemed like a generally likeable guy.

I think his head got REALLLLLLLLLY big after the World Series.  He might have always been like this, but one thing I noticed afterwards was that he became completely unable to admit even the smallest of mistakes.  Given the palpable tension between him and Theo/Jed the last year or two, I'm guessing he was just as bad if not worse behind closed doors.  There were also his really super messed up remarks during the Addison Russell saga, which I think started the turn against him with the fans.

Hopefully being out of the game and/or his embarrassing tenure with the Angels has mellowed him back out.  Because while the above isn't great, it's not nearly bad enough to where he can't show his face around town again.

[Irrelevant Dude]

16 minutes ago, Bertz said:

I think his head got REALLLLLLLLLY big after the World Series.  He might have always been like this, but one thing I noticed afterwards was that he became completely unable to admit even the smallest of mistakes.

The one mistake he DID admit to was using Chapman for longer than necessary in Game 6.  He didn't back down from his pitching decisions in Game 7, but was at least willing to concede that he let Chapman throw more pitches than he should have in Game 6.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

44 minutes ago, Bertz said:

I think his head got REALLLLLLLLLY big after the World Series.  He might have always been like this, but one thing I noticed afterwards was that he became completely unable to admit even the smallest of mistakes.  Given the palpable tension between him and Theo/Jed the last year or two, I'm guessing he was just as bad if not worse behind closed doors.  There were also his really super messed up remarks during the Addison Russell saga, which I think started the turn against him with the fans.

Hopefully being out of the game and/or his embarrassing tenure with the Angels has mellowed him back out.  Because while the above isn't great, it's not nearly bad enough to where he can't show his face around town again.

He almost seems like an avatar for the rise and fall of that era.  Not weighed down by convention and pressing all the right buttons leads to success which then leads to complacency and a slow fade.  More verbal stumbles in Maddon's case given he says more words to the media than anyone else, but otherwise in general the success was too recent so the signs to adapt get translated as bad luck or some other ill fortune.

[17 Seconds]

he came across as a likable care free dude at the beginning, but by the end I didn't feel that way about him at all. he gets kind of whiny when he's criticized (he reminds me of doc rivers that way), and his non-baseball opinions didn't really help for me personally

[mul21]

@Irrelevant DudeI think the conversation around Lester is less about bringing him into the game in general than it is about bringing him into a dirty inning.  There were even conversations about that before the game. especially considering his issues with holding runners on and throwing to 1st.  

The Chapman error was definitely game 6 and re-watching that 9th inning, i have no idea how Cleveland didn't hit several of those meatball sliders he threw into the seats.

[Soul]

I can't explain it but somehow I stumbled across this halfway through by luck.  It was very entertaining for any Cub fan.  I definitely recommend setting a DVR for Saturday, or just watching it.

On the topic of Maddon's legacy.  His game 7 moves were always going to be picked apart.  At the time I couldn't understand the Hendricks move.  I was angry about it.  But now, it just feels like the Cubs were going to have to punch through all the obstacles that would have sunk them in years past.  And they did.  For once and for all, they did.

Is there anything more crazy than that rain delay out of the blue?  Kornheiser called it the tears from heaven.  It's just insane that happened.

And I'm surprised I didn't break a bone or pull a muscle jumping around like an idiot in my living room when Rizzo caught the final out. 

[Soul]

1 minute ago, mul21 said:

@Irrelevant DudeI think the conversation around Lester is less about bringing him into the game in general than it is about bringing him into a dirty inning.  There were even conversations about that before the game. especially considering his issues with holding runners on and throwing to 1st.  

The Chapman error was definitely game 6 and re-watching that 9th inning, i have no idea how Cleveland didn't hit several of those meatball sliders he threw into the seats.

It had to be because they were sitting fastball.  I mean, had Chapman ever taken that approach to an inning, either before or since that one inning?  Then he went back fastball, probably just as they were thinking OK, he's throwing the slider.  Maddon gives the credit largely to Miggy for that.  But Chapman had to be willing to throw what he had to know was a hittable pitch.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

19 minutes ago, Soul said:

It had to be because they were sitting fastball.  I mean, had Chapman ever taken that approach to an inning, either before or since that one inning?  Then he went back fastball, probably just as they were thinking OK, he's throwing the slider.  Maddon gives the credit largely to Miggy for that.  But Chapman had to be willing to throw what he had to know was a hittable pitch.

My recollection was the big consternation was that Chapman's fastball velo was down due to how much he'd been working, but he was still at 97. That's still a heater you have to be geared up for which buys you margin for error on the slider.

I can't remember the specifics but I think Montero mentioned something about the pitch selection that inning in the Cubs Con panel about 2016, but I'm blanking on what it was.  Maybe that he wasn't locating the fastball, or that he saw someone really time it up once and so he thought 'that's enough of that', something in that vein?

Related: I found a clip of the Kipnis foul ball, and I don't know if I ever realized that it was nowhere close to HR distance?  Like it might not have even been a double if fair given the higher trajectory and time for Heyward to circle it.  EDIT:  Okay Heyward was off the line so an easy double, but funny how comparatively not-terrifying that is now

[Irrelevant Dude]

12 minutes ago, mul21 said:

The Chapman error was definitely game 6 and re-watching that 9th inning, i have no idea how Cleveland didn't hit several of those meatball sliders he threw into the seats.

That Kipnis at bat in the 10th was, and still is, terrifying.

[Brian707]

What should have been a 6-1 type win thanks to Maddon took probably 10 years off my life. Chapman was misused in game 6 but also in the Dodger series when the Cubs were up big I think in game 5 he was used unnecessarily. 

 

A few posts above, someone mentioned doing a rewatch. I suggest buying the Blu Ray box set it has the clinching game 6 in Dodgers series plus all WS games. You can choose to listen to the national tv broadcast or switch the audio to Pat and Ron.

 

Amazon.com: Major League Baseball Presents 2016 World Series: Chicago Cubs : Various, Various: Movies & TV

Edited February 23, 2024 by Brian707

[Brian707]

1 hour ago, squally1313 said:

Fairly sure the entire game is on Youtube 

Yup full game here. I love the Bryan Cranston intro

 

 

[Andy]

4 hours ago, Transmogrified Tiger said:

I can't remember the specifics but I think Montero mentioned something about the pitch selection that inning in the Cubs Con panel about 2016, but I'm blanking on what it was.  Maybe that he wasn't locating the fastball, or that he saw someone really time it up once and so he thought 'that's enough of that', something in that vein?

I don't know if this is what you mean, but Ross literally called nothing but fastballs for Chapman when both were in the game in Game 6, and Cleveland picked up on that and sat dead red when both were in the game in Game 7. Ross did not adjust until after the Davis homer, which would never have been possible (it was a fairly well-located pitch and very hard to get around on) if Davis thought there was any chance Chapman was throwing a not-fastball.

[Andy]

14 hours ago, Irrelevant Dude said:

- I still can't get enough of Rizzo's nervous conversation with David Ross that was captured in the dugout.  He was all of us at that point in time.

He said he was nervous, but it was clearly the good nervous. The fact that he dropped an Anchorman reference (La Stella wasn't mic'd up, but he might have sparked it) during crunch time of the biggest baseball game of his life was just the best, most endearing thing.

[Stratos]

10 hours ago, Bertz said:

I think his head got REALLLLLLLLLY big after the World Series.  He might have always been like this, but one thing I noticed afterwards was that he became completely unable to admit even the smallest of mistakes.

He's really hard to listen to in interviews because of this.  I saw his Game 7 commentary on TV but i just couldn't watch it.

Edited February 24, 2024 by Stratos

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Hendricks' entire career has him been falling apart in the late innings when left in until the manager stops doing it, then fans getting mad that he's "pulled too early."

[Rcal10]

10 hours ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

Hendricks' entire career has him been falling apart in the late innings when left in until the manager stops doing it, then fans getting mad that he's "pulled too early."

He was at 60 pitches and in the 5rh inning. He also was in a year where he had an era  the low 2’s. And had pitched a great game in game 6 against the Dodgers in the NLCS and actually pitched well in his first start in the WS. Not sure who you are talking about when you suggest he has had a career of falling apart in late innings. But even if that is true, (and it is not), this wasn’t  late. 
I don’t have an issue with Maddon bringing Lester in however. As he explained, had he not used him he may have lost him in that game. And it did make some sense at that time with Kionis coming up. And if we are being fair, he did get a swinging  bunt from Kipnis that Ross should have thrown him out. And he also struck out Lindor. Result sucked but he did pitch well. 
But your suggestion that Hendricks always falls apart late is just nonsense. Especially in 2016. And it wasn’t late. 

Edited February 25, 2024 by Rcal10

[Hairyducked Idiot]

44 minutes ago, Rcal10 said:

He was at 60 pitches and in the 5rh inning. He also was in a year where he had an era  the low 2’s. And had pitched a great game in game 6 against the Dodgers in the NLCS and actually pitched well in his first start in the WS. Not sure who you are talking about when you suggest he has had a career of falling apart in late innings. But even if that is true, (and it is not), this wasn’t  late. 
I don’t have an issue with Maddon beinfinf Lester in however. As he explained, had he not used him he may have lost him in that game. And it did make some sense at that time with Kionis coming up. And if we are being fair, he did get a swinging  bunt from Kipnis that Ross should have thrown him out. And he also struck out Lindor. Result sucked but he did pitch well. 
But your suggestion that Hendricks always falls apart late is just nonsense. Especially in 2016. And it wasn’t late. 

And on cue.

[Rex Buckingham]

I don't have any hard numbers... but anecdotally, Kyle is right. Hendricks has often (in my recollection) gotten a long leash and had a blow up inning near the end of his starts that it seemed like you could see it coming. He starts giving up line drives and loud outs, but gets another inning and gives up a couple dongs before getting pulled.

[Rcal10]

39 minutes ago, Rex Buckingham said:

I don't have any hard numbers... but anecdotally, Kyle is right. Hendricks has often (in my recollection) gotten a long leash and had a blow up inning near the end of his starts that it seemed like you could see it coming. He starts giving up line drives and loud outs, but gets another inning and gives up a couple dongs before getting pulled.

True. When he goes bad you have to pull him. But we are talking about back in 2016. He won the era title. How often did that happen then? He also was at 60 pitches. He was not going bad. In fact he had the guy struck out but the umpire missed the call. At 60 pitches he was not late in the game. I don’t think it is fair to act like he was some guy who falls apart.
But, that said, I wasn’t complaining about Joe pulling him. I do understand his thinking on this move. At the time, I know I didn’t like it, but when Joe explained it I do get it. IMO the only real issue I had with Maddon in the playoffs was using Chapman in game 6 up 5 runs. I don’t have an issue with putting Lester in and even when he took Lester out. Had Chapman not pitched in game 6 maybe he has better results in game 7. 

[Brian707]

11 hours ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

Hendricks' entire career has him been falling apart in the late innings when left in until the manager stops doing it, then fans getting mad that he's "pulled too early."

Yes with the benefit of 7 years of hindsight you are correct.  But in that situation in 2016 it was a stupid move by Maddon

[BigSlick]

I was watching game 7 at the Holiday Club with some friends of mine. When Rajai Davis tied it off Chapman, I walked right out of the bar, into the rain, and onto the Red Line (I lived in Rogers Park at the time). I simply couldn't watch what was happening. I listened to the game on the radio while going up north, got back into my apartment right when the 10th inning was starting and got to see Ben Zobrist take the lead. 

That game DEFINITELY took years off my life. But I also got to watch one of my favorite teams win a championship, so there's that.