Bears week 3 @ KC, Sunday 3:25 on FOX

[WrigleyField 22]

16 minutes ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

I understand the "well this isn't working so you have to try something different" but running a few more QB designed runs per game isn't going to solve anything.  He got 10 runs per game last year and 7 per game this year.

If I'm an NFL team and you try to run Justin fields at me, I laugh and say go for it. He might break one that goes on the highlight reels forever, but he is just as likely to put the ball on the ground and he can't sustain it.

 

Not all runs are created equal. There's definitely been a lack of designed runs. And not all designed runs are created equal either.  If you're not in for JTs magnum opus, this article today is a brief one showing the difference between sone of the designed run schemes from Getsy this year against some of Stiechen's designs and even the stuff Getsy did last year after week 6.

Direct link too

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/lists/chicago-bears-offense-justin-fields-luke-getsy/

So yea, everyone wants to rely on his legs less, but what's there still sucks.  And there's also been a lack of simple PA and PA boot stuff through 2 games.  They rarely ran whole field reads last year cuz grocery baggers were at WR, but keeping some of the simple half read field stuff is fine too. Fields didn't need to becone a mvp passer over one off season.

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by WrigleyField 22

[raw]

3 minutes ago, gflore34 said:

Perhaps, it's a the response to Fields can't pass, he's just a glorified RB etc., these are all prideful guys who want show the critics up.  Granted, there's also a good amount of fucked up-ness and dysfunction but, the heart of it may be their desire to give the bird to the critics.

I'm guessing a large part of this is on Fields himself. He ran to save his life last year. He's trying to be a pocket passer to preserve his body of the hits he will take as a runner.

But it's kind of funny. Last year it was Fields ran too much and that wasn't sustainable. Fans complained about the lack of pass attempts, saying they should "just let him throw it". There was also a lot made that he needs to stop holding onto the ball and look for the checkdowns after his first reads are not open.

Well, he's not running as much and everyone's like, "why isn't he running?" He's had more pass attempts each game than he had in any game last year, "well, Herbert avg 6 ypc, Roschon 8 ypc, why aren't they running the ball more?" Week 1, he checked down almost exclusively, "well why isn't he throwing it down the field?". Week 2, he kept looking to go down the field, "why is he holding onto the ball so long?"

Obviously, the answer is a healthy balance of all of this. Sometimes they need to run the ball more with RBs. Sometimes Fields needs to go deep (like typically when guys are open and you're staring at them, Justin). Sometimes Fields needs to check down. Sometimes he needs to take off running. 

And I know we all want that healthy balance right now and for downfield, checkdown, run, handoff to all be done with 100% perfection and efficiency.....but it's 2 games in. Two games of the team around him actually trying to put a winning product on the field. I think some expectations have been unfair (part of it is the crap from the building saying how much he has improved w/ the playbook). Fields is still throwing to mostly new WRs (DJ, 100 snaps in 22 w/ Claypool, Scott), he has a whole new OL from C to RT. We still see guys flashing in the backfield immediately. We still see receivers running the same route in the same place. We still see them behind the chains due to (almost exclusively Braxton Jones') penalties. 

This is not to absolve Fields of blame. He's still terrible out there. He shouldn't have to overcome everything being thrown at him, but he has to be able to overcome the basics. See guy open, throw to open guy. See no guy open in 3 seconds, you are now a runner. QB is a tough position, but make the layups. I do think he has shown enough ability to do all these different things, but all at different times. He just has to put it all together, all of the time.  

[Hairyducked Idiot]

16 minutes ago, raw said:

I'm guessing a large part of this is on Fields himself. He ran to save his life last year. He's trying to be a pocket passer to preserve his body of the hits he will take as a runner.

But it's kind of funny. Last year it was Fields ran too much and that wasn't sustainable. Fans complained about the lack of pass attempts, saying they should "just let him throw it". There was also a lot made that he needs to stop holding onto the ball and look for the checkdowns after his first reads are not open.

Well, he's not running as much and everyone's like, "why isn't he running?" He's had more pass attempts each game than he had in any game last year, "well, Herbert avg 6 ypc, Roschon 8 ypc, why aren't they running the ball more?" Week 1, he checked down almost exclusively, "well why isn't he throwing it down the field?". Week 2, he kept looking to go down the field, "why is he holding onto the ball so long?"

Obviously, the answer is a healthy balance of all of this. Sometimes they need to run the ball more with RBs. Sometimes Fields needs to go deep (like typically when guys are open and you're staring at them, Justin). Sometimes Fields needs to check down. Sometimes he needs to take off running. 

And I know we all want that healthy balance right now and for downfield, checkdown, run, handoff to all be done with 100% perfection and efficiency.....but it's 2 games in. Two games of the team around him actually trying to put a winning product on the field. I think some expectations have been unfair (part of it is the crap from the building saying how much he has improved w/ the playbook). Fields is still throwing to mostly new WRs (DJ, 100 snaps in 22 w/ Claypool, Scott), he has a whole new OL from C to RT. We still see guys flashing in the backfield immediately. We still see receivers running the same route in the same place. We still see them behind the chains due to (almost exclusively Braxton Jones') penalties. 

This is not to absolve Fields of blame. He's still terrible out there. He shouldn't have to overcome everything being thrown at him, but he has to be able to overcome the basics. See guy open, throw to open guy. See no guy open in 3 seconds, you are now a runner. QB is a tough position, but make the layups. I do think he has shown enough ability to do all these different things, but all at different times. He just has to put it all together, all of the time.  

I don't want him to run more and I definitely don't want us to call more runs.  

[Hairyducked Idiot]

One thing I noticed in the video that I didn't notice live:  the rg, which I think was Carter, had possibly the worst day I've seen from an offensive lineman in the last two years.  And given the line play we've seen the last few years, that's saying something.  And he's a 7th round pick who was like our fourth choice to start there, so it happens. But woof.

Ive never liked Jones. Whitehair is washed. Patrick can't snap. But there's a whole level of bad below them and he reached it.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I'm perfectly happy to suspect that Eberflus is just defensive Trestman, and I was a Poles hater long before it was cool, but I keep coming back to two thinsg

1) Coaching staffs and QBs are like MLB managers and bullpens. It's uncanny how smart you look when you have a good one and how dumb you look when you have a bad one.

2) The team being in the shape it's in is the logical result of almost a decade full of first-round picks not being used to find long-term mainstays at key positions.   From 2015-2022, our eight first-round picks netted us 2 QB busts, 2 LBs we didn't sign to second contracts, a WR bust, and 4 years of paying the highest defensive cap hit in the league for a slightly post-prime Mack.

For that same time period, I count 7 Packers first-round picks still starting for the team and one injured who might otherwise be starting (I think, I won't claim to intimately know the Packers depth chart).

[WrigleyField 22]

And even a lot of their second rounders have or probably will not get second contracts. Due in no small part to the FO changeover (Daniels let walk and even in Tev gets healthy I think Poles will let him walk).  JJ may walk too.  Their one long term top 75 draft pick in like 6 years may end up being a average Y-TE.

Edited September 19, 2023 by WrigleyField 22

[CubinNY]

I think there are two divergent views here related to nature (mythical slow processor in the brain) and nurture (coaching that builds on strengths). I'm not sure that there is much in the way of nurture ability in the NFL. I know Brady sung the praise of Weiss, but Weiss was never able to translate that anywhere else, although that could be due to sloth. And we haven't seen a lot of mid-round QBs succeed in the NFL. The nature argument is probably mostly horsefeathers too. The NFL has a way of sussing that out well before the draft. 

I think a team has to be very careful to draft a QB that works with whatever scheme the team is using based on the HC/OC. It's not nature or nurture, it's compatibility. In the case of the Bears, when have they had the stability to do that?

Edited September 19, 2023 by CubinNY

[Irrelevant Dude]

1 hour ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

One thing I noticed in the video that I didn't notice live:  the rg, which I think was Carter, had possibly the worst day I've seen from an offensive lineman in the last two years.  And given the line play we've seen the last few years, that's saying something.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, the one guy who didn't show negatively on the videos was Darnell Wright.  Everyone else is screwing up, but he seems really solid. So that's only bright spot. Now the Bears just need 4 more of those guys.

[gflore34]

9 minutes ago, Irrelevant Dude said:

On the opposite side of the spectrum, the one guy who didn't show negatively on the videos was Darnell Wright.  Everyone else is screwing up, but he seems really solid. So that's only bright spot. Now the Bears just need 4 more of those guys.

A healthy Jenkins from day 1 would have made a tremendous difference, him going down right before the season started really hurt.  I know the guy rarely plays, when he does, its makes a positive difference.

[raw]

2 hours ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

One thing I noticed in the video that I didn't notice live:  the rg, which I think was Carter, had possibly the worst day I've seen from an offensive lineman in the last two years.  And given the line play we've seen the last few years, that's saying something.  And he's a 7th round pick who was like our fourth choice to start there, so it happens. But woof.

Ive never liked Jones. Whitehair is washed. Patrick can't snap. But there's a whole level of bad below them and he reached it.

I thought Carter passed block pretty well. IDK the stats, but I personally counted 2 pressures and 1 sack allowed (Fields running into Vea after 20 seconds). His run blocking upon re-watch was abysmal. 

And to be fair, Whitehair, the expect C, can't snap either. Also the backup C, Feeney, came in for 2 plays and had a rolled snap. 

[raw]

2 hours ago, CubinNY said:

I think a team has to be very careful to draft a QB that works with whatever scheme the team is using based on the HC/OC. It's not nature or nurture, it's compatibility. In the case of the Bears, when have they had the stability to do that?

The Bears never do anything in the right order. Just going back to the recent guys.....

Cutler- traded for w/ Lovie, a defensive coach. Came in on Lovie's 2nd OC hire, played for 2 additional OCs under Lovie, then Trestman as an offensive HC, and 2 OCs in 2 years under John Fox. 

Trubisky- drafted with a lame duck at HC, who didn't even know they were picking him. So they knowingly were going to teach him 2 offenses in 2 years to start his career. 

Fields- drafted by a lame duck GM, who had a lame duck HC, who failed with the previous QB that was the supposed reason he took the HC job. IDK that Pace went in thinking Fields would have to also learn 2 offenses in 2 years, but whoever let him trade multiple picks had to take this possibility into account.

So all these moves had either the QB coming in to an established head coach and/or were already there when a new coach came in. Just once, you'd think they'd hire a GM who has an offensive plan and hires a coach that shares that same plan, and together they select a QB that can carry out their plan. 

[gflore34]

17 minutes ago, raw said:

The Bears never do anything in the right order. Just going back to the recent guys.....

Cutler- traded for w/ Lovie, a defensive coach. Came in on Lovie's 2nd OC hire, played for 2 additional OCs under Lovie, then Trestman as an offensive HC, and 2 OCs in 2 years under John Fox. 

Trubisky- drafted with a lame duck at HC, who didn't even know they were picking him. So they knowingly were going to teach him 2 offenses in 2 years to start his career. 

Fields- drafted by a lame duck GM, who had a lame duck HC, who failed with the previous QB that was the supposed reason he took the HC job. IDK that Pace went in thinking Fields would have to also learn 2 offenses in 2 years, but whoever let him trade multiple picks had to take this possibility into account.

So all these moves had either the QB coming in to an established head coach and/or were already there when a new coach came in. Just once, you'd think they'd hire a GM who has an offensive plan and hires a coach that shares that same plan, and together they select a QB that can carry out their plan. 

You think its possible that Poles wasn't enamored with any this years QB class that he chose to ride with Fields.  Knowing there's a distinct possibility he'd fail thereby, setting up another tank.  Going into 2024, with a much better QB class with the draft capital and evidence that they'll be in need of a QB?  I wouldn't say outright sabotaging Fields but, improving what's around enough, where, if Fields is the answer it'll work out.

[WrigleyField 22]

I don't think Jenkins is unbiased in some of his points, and he harps on some of the footwork stuff in a very narrow/obsessive way (he makes it sound new, but he was talking about the same thing last year so it's no longer brand new), but always a decent listen (and alternative to 90 minutes of JT doom porn)

 

[raw]

1 hour ago, gflore34 said:

You think its possible that Poles wasn't enamored with any this years QB class that he chose to ride with Fields.  Knowing there's a distinct possibility he'd fail thereby, setting up another tank.  Going into 2024, with a much better QB class with the draft capital and evidence that they'll be in need of a QB?  I wouldn't say outright sabotaging Fields but, improving what's around enough, where, if Fields is the answer it'll work out.

I guess it's possible. But it's insanely stupid if he that was the line of thinking. The Bears had a lot go right to get that #1 pick. And unless you're getting the #1 pick (Williams), I think you're getting a lesser QB than Fields....AS A PROSPECT, and you don't even know who's coming out, taking a step forward. 

Actually, now that I think about it....I don't think that's possible. In that case, you take extra picks over DJ Moore. You don't trade for Claypool midseason. You may even take Jalen Carter over Darnell Wright.

[WrigleyField 22]

3 minutes ago, raw said:

I guess it's possible. But it's insanely stupid if he that was the line of thinking. The Bears had a lot go right to get that #1 pick. And unless you're getting the #1 pick (Williams), I think you're getting a lesser QB than Fields....AS A PROSPECT, and you don't even know who's coming out, taking a step forward. 

Actually, now that I think about it....I don't think that's possible. In that case, you take extra picks over DJ Moore. You don't trade for Claypool midseason. You may even take Jalen Carter over Darnell Wright.

Yea, I think that line of thinking was more likely in 2022. Fields did enough to force his hand into putting legit effort into his support for 2023, but the distinct possibility remains that 2022 broke/stunted him in some way along the way.

[gflore34]

4 minutes ago, raw said:

I guess it's possible. But it's insanely stupid if he that was the line of thinking. The Bears had a lot go right to get that #1 pick. And unless you're getting the #1 pick (Williams), I think you're getting a lesser QB than Fields....AS A PROSPECT, and you don't even know who's coming out, taking a step forward. 

Actually, now that I think about it....I don't think that's possible. In that case, you take extra picks over DJ Moore. You don't trade for Claypool midseason. You may even take Jalen Carter over Darnell Wright.

I know it's insane but, given the already unconventional just plain fucked up moves Poles has made, it may be in the realm of possibility.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Given the volatility of QB prospects, unless one is literally Peyton Manning, I don't mind trading down from No. 1 overall, and I don't think Bryce Young is Peyton Manning.

Trading out of No. 1 overall and getting hopefully a long-term solution at tackle and an excellent WR for 2024 (plus another first and 2nd) is the thing Poles has done I object to the least.

Since Peyton it's been:

Couch, Vick, Carr, Palmer, Eli, Smith, Russell, Stafford, Bradford, Newton, Luck, Winston, Goff, Mayfield, Murray, Burrow, Lawrence, Young.

That's a pretty good group, but I think I'd rather have 3 firsts and take my chances

Edited September 19, 2023 by Hairyducked Idiot

[gflore34]

Re-watched some of the Bagent analysis, the footwork is there, the drop back is quicker, if the Bears are say, 0-7, 0-8.  I'd like to see what he can do, the footwork, etc. is there, regardless of where he came from.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

29 minutes ago, gflore34 said:

Re-watched some of the Bagent analysis, the footwork is there, the drop back is quicker, if the Bears are say, 0-7, 0-8.  I'd like to see what he can do, the footwork, etc. is there, regardless of where he came from.

I know it's funny given the complaints about Fields, but with Bagent I see the exact opposite.  If he tries to throw into the same windows against NFL starters that he was against late preseason cut bait, he's gonna throw 3 picks per quarter.

But I still wouldn't hate seeing him get a start by the end of the season. Crazier things thave heppened, maybe he can be our Kurt Warner. (spoiler, he probably can't)

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Just got around to watching the "every play" video from Bryce Young. I really don't feel like we missed out.

He looks really good in the pocket.  Great natural instinct to shift around and find the right lanes, not just going crazy and taking off.  But he has to be because there's no way he can see over the line.  His accuracy is extremely meh.  It's not bad enough to keep him from being an NFL starter, but he's not the pocket passer of my dreams, capable of making NFL defenses in a playoff game wonder what they're supposed to do because he keeps putting balls into the perfect spot against good coverage.

Stroud looked way better but he had a lot of very clean pockets and prevent-y defense to throw at in a big loss.

I'm not sorry to have Darnell Wright, DJ Moore, a 2024 first that looks to be very high, a 2024 fourth and a 2025 2nd instead of either of them.

[BigbadB]

10 hours ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

Just got around to watching the "every play" video from Bryce Young. I really don't feel like we missed out.

He looks really good in the pocket.  Great natural instinct to shift around and find the right lanes, not just going crazy and taking off.  But he has to be because there's no way he can see over the line.  His accuracy is extremely meh.  It's not bad enough to keep him from being an NFL starter, but he's not the pocket passer of my dreams, capable of making NFL defenses in a playoff game wonder what they're supposed to do because he keeps putting balls into the perfect spot against good coverage.

Stroud looked way better but he had a lot of very clean pockets and prevent-y defense to throw at in a big loss.

I'm not sorry to have Darnell Wright, DJ Moore, a 2024 first that looks to be very high, a 2024 fourth and a 2025 2nd instead of either of them.

To be fair with Bryce, his best WR plays for the Bears. His crew is Adam Thielen, DJ Chark, Leviska Shenault and Jonathan Mingo, with Hayden Hurst at TE. That's going to be tough for his development, especially when Thielen gets injured from trying to be the same Thielen from 5 years ago.

[raw]

It's not really about missing out on anyone. If Poles kept Fields, his reasoning better be that he truly believed Fields could be the best QB in franchise history, and one of the best in the league. If the reasoning is that he wasn't in love with these prospects or that he wanted to get a bunch of assets to then go for a QB, then that's asinine reasoning. If that is the case, Poles not only wasted 2022, but also 2023. It's just not acceptable to waste 2 years waiting on this mythical QB prospect you may or may not even have a chance to draft. 

[WrigleyField 22]

38 minutes ago, raw said:

It's not really about missing out on anyone. If Poles kept Fields, his reasoning better be that he truly believed Fields could be the best QB in franchise history, and one of the best in the league. If the reasoning is that he wasn't in love with these prospects or that he wanted to get a bunch of assets to then go for a QB, then that's asinine reasoning. If that is the case, Poles not only wasted 2022, but also 2023. It's just not acceptable to waste 2 years waiting on this mythical QB prospect you may or may not even have a chance to draft. 

I don't think 2023 had to be so clear cut. If he just didn't believe in any of the QB prospects, at least he put a real effort into the O (though I'd have liked another OL signing).  But it wasn't a true waste like 2022 was.  

 

"I like Fields at 2 year cheap better than these prospects at a big 4 year guaranteed deal, but either way I'm going to get some weapons and add a OL early" is an acceptable approach to the O to me.

[CubinNY]

55 minutes ago, WrigleyField 22 said:

I don't think 2023 had to be so clear cut. If he just didn't believe in any of the QB prospects, at least he put a real effort into the O (though I'd have liked another OL signing).  But it wasn't a true waste like 2022 was.  

 

"I like Fields at 2 year cheap better than these prospects at a big 4 year guaranteed deal, but either way I'm going to get some weapons and add a OL early" is an acceptable approach to the O to me.

It's a bad gamble either way and should be a fireable offense if it happened. Which it didn't. 

There is no guarantee that they will be bad enough to be in the mix for whomever may be available in the next draft and it makes the team demonstrably worse in the season.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Yeah I'm all aboard the hate train for both poles and fields.

There's a hundred different paths poles could have taken since the day he took over.  I'm just not sorry we didn't take young.