Re: Darvish

[ctcf]

You're mistakenly making the assumption that aggressively on the Cubs = the same thing as aggressively on the Red Sox.

 

So the Cubs, when acting aggressively, are unable to compete with the Rangers financially? I know, new TV deal, blah blah blah, but come on. There is no reason why, if they really wanted to, the Cubs couldnt spend $52 mil on a posting bid for a Japanese player.

 

Is this supposed to be an actual argument? You're relying entirely on the hindsight of knowing what it would take to be the winning bid.

[The Post]

Can someone explain to me why so many people are upset that Theo and the Cubs aren't spending money left and right this off season? Ask people one of the main reasons why the Cubs are in the mess that they're in and they will tell you Soriano and Zambrano's bad contracts. So why hurry to sign more contracts like that? If there is one luxury the Cubs have its that they don't have to put a competitive team on the field the next two years and they'll still sell out games. I'd rather the Cubs go on full out rebuild and be competitive for years and years to come rather than tie their hands for a pitcher who is a crap shoot and a player like Fielder who will be a DH by the time the Cubs have a decent team. Sure the NL Central is weaker with no Fielder and Pujols but the Cardinals are getting Wainright back, the Brewers will still be a decent team, and the Reds will be improved. If the Cubs got Darvish and Fielder they still would have a difficult time winning the division. If the Cubs end up signing Fielder, which I don't think they will, I won't be upset but it's not the move I want them to make. Imagine how bad the Cubs' defense would be with Fielder trying to pick Castro's throws out of the dirt?

[Guest]

There is actually a pretty big difference between having money to do fielder / pujols vs having the cash on hand to win the posting. It is possible that the other items on the agenda (Wrigley, mesa, Dominican academy, etc) did more to prevent this than the baseball budget.

[Rob]

I wont lie... this hurts. And now I'm worried we're going to sign Fielder to a poorly advised deal in a desperate bid to show we're doing something.

 

Sleeping on it for a night will perhaps provide some more perspective, but for tonight at least I've reached the point where I'd be fine with a full-scale rebuilding process.

[Pushfrog98]

Thankfully, Hendry isn't our GM anymore.

[questionmarkgrace]

Can someone explain to me why so many people are upset that Theo and the Cubs aren't spending money left and right this off season? Ask people one of the main reasons why the Cubs are in the mess that they're in and they will tell you Soriano and Zambrano's bad contracts. So why hurry to sign more contracts like that? If there is one luxury the Cubs have its that they don't have to put a competitive team on the field the next two years and they'll still sell out games. I'd rather the Cubs go on full out rebuild and be competitive for years and years to come rather than tie their hands for a pitcher who is a crap shoot and a player like Fielder who will be a DH by the time the Cubs have a decent team. Sure the NL Central is weaker with no Fielder and Pujols but the Cardinals are getting Wainright back, the Brewers will still be a decent team, and the Reds will be improved. If the Cubs got Darvish and Fielder they still would have a difficult time winning the division. If the Cubs end up signing Fielder, which I don't think they will, I won't be upset but it's not the move I want them to make. Imagine how bad the Cubs' defense would be with Fielder trying to pick Castro's throws out of the dirt?

 

Really? You want the cubs to be bad for two years so we can only develop players? Are you going to watch minor league games in the mean time? Going into full rebuild mode does not guarantee that our team will be a consistent playoff contender. How many prospects are making the redsox team this year? How many legit prospects even exist in the redsox system? One that I can think of. Since the 03/04 drafts epstein and hoyer have been relatively average at drafting and developing. because it is an inexact science you have to do well in both player development and player acquisition (free agency/trades) to be a consistently successful team. There is no reason the cubs cannot fix their player development problems while sprinkling in worth while acquisitions and simultaneously fielding a competitive team. To punt this year away in the name of development is imo inexcusable. The current team is at least a 90 loss team and that doesnt sit well with me. Im not saying we neccessarily need fielder or darvish persay. Cespedes would be a nice get along with say edwin jackson and a trade or two. You dont neccessarily have to break the bank to get better. but there better be some turnover on this godforsaken roster.

[Clem Fandango]

I have to think Toronto becomes an immediate trade partner for Garza, though. You think they'd be willing to deal Lawrie for him in a package? Don't they need a closer, too?

[USSoccer]

Can someone explain to me why so many people are upset that Theo and the Cubs aren't spending money left and right this off season? Ask people one of the main reasons why the Cubs are in the mess that they're in and they will tell you Soriano and Zambrano's bad contracts. So why hurry to sign more contracts like that? If there is one luxury the Cubs have its that they don't have to put a competitive team on the field the next two years and they'll still sell out games. I'd rather the Cubs go on full out rebuild and be competitive for years and years to come rather than tie their hands for a pitcher who is a crap shoot and a player like Fielder who will be a DH by the time the Cubs have a decent team. Sure the NL Central is weaker with no Fielder and Pujols but the Cardinals are getting Wainright back, the Brewers will still be a decent team, and the Reds will be improved. If the Cubs got Darvish and Fielder they still would have a difficult time winning the division. If the Cubs end up signing Fielder, which I don't think they will, I won't be upset but it's not the move I want them to make. Imagine how bad the Cubs' defense would be with Fielder trying to pick Castro's throws out of the dirt?

 

Kelton/Choi/Hill/Montanez are the infield of the future

 

Prior/Cruz/Brownlie/Wood/Sisco are going to be dominant for years

 

Pie is going to be awesome. CPatt is the next Mays.

 

That's why big market teams shouldn't just blow ish up and rebuild. Because it's a complete and total crapshoot and you're far more likely to end up in the Kansas City Royals wilderness than you are with some badass homegrown team like Tampa Bay, and even they took a decade of drafting competence to become good.

 

A major market team should have the resources to carry a couple of large longer term contracts without it being crippling, not to mention the fact that we now have this supposed badass front office capable of properly coordinating the roster so you can do both.

[Backtobanks]

Sell off Garza, Marshall, Soto, Marmol, and Byrd. This takes payroll down to 80ish mill range. You'll get 2 top 100 prospects for Garza, plus more. 1 top 100 prospect for Marshall. Decent returns for Soto and Marmol. DeRosa like return for Byrd. Add Edwin Jackson for 4/48 and Beltran for 2/30. Puts payroll at around 107. Get Rizzo somehow, even if it's 3 team deal involving Garza. Sign Chen for 4/20. Sign Soler for same. Payroll at 117. If you can get someone to take Soriano for 3/9, go ahead and pull trigger. Midseason go ahead and unload Dempster and Z for whatever we can. Spend as much money on IFA as is available to be had. Spend leftover money on penalties for going over in draft. You've probably got a mid 70's win team this upcoming season, with lots of ability to find out some things about some of the youngsters you've acquired. And tons of cash and assets to load up next offseason.

 

So your goal is trying to win in 2020 (maybe)?

[UMFan83]

You're mistakenly making the assumption that aggressively on the Cubs = the same thing as aggressively on the Red Sox.

 

So the Cubs, when acting aggressively, are unable to compete with the Rangers financially? I know, new TV deal, blah blah blah, but come on. There is no reason why, if they really wanted to, the Cubs couldnt spend $52 mil on a posting bid for a Japanese player.

 

Is this supposed to be an actual argument? You're relying entirely on the hindsight of knowing what it would take to be the winning bid.

 

Ugh ct read the original post before you reply.

[mul21]

Sell off Garza, Marshall, Soto, Marmol, and Byrd. This takes payroll down to 80ish mill range. You'll get 2 top 100 prospects for Garza, plus more. 1 top 100 prospect for Marshall. Decent returns for Soto and Marmol. DeRosa like return for Byrd. Add Edwin Jackson for 4/48 and Beltran for 2/30. Puts payroll at around 107. Get Rizzo somehow, even if it's 3 team deal involving Garza. Sign Chen for 4/20. Sign Soler for same. Payroll at 117. If you can get someone to take Soriano for 3/9, go ahead and pull trigger. Midseason go ahead and unload Dempster and Z for whatever we can. Spend as much money on IFA as is available to be had. Spend leftover money on penalties for going over in draft. You've probably got a mid 70's win team this upcoming season, with lots of ability to find out some things about some of the youngsters you've acquired. And tons of cash and assets to load up next offseason.

 

So your goal is trying to win in 2020 (maybe)?

 

How could you possibly come to that conclusion from what he posted? He's sacrificing 2012 to get a boatload of young guys and free up payroll to add significant pieces in the off season next year and be relatively competitive in 2013 with a lot of upside going forward.

[USSoccer]

Sell off Garza, Marshall, Soto, Marmol, and Byrd. This takes payroll down to 80ish mill range. You'll get 2 top 100 prospects for Garza, plus more. 1 top 100 prospect for Marshall. Decent returns for Soto and Marmol. DeRosa like return for Byrd. Add Edwin Jackson for 4/48 and Beltran for 2/30. Puts payroll at around 107. Get Rizzo somehow, even if it's 3 team deal involving Garza. Sign Chen for 4/20. Sign Soler for same. Payroll at 117. If you can get someone to take Soriano for 3/9, go ahead and pull trigger. Midseason go ahead and unload Dempster and Z for whatever we can. Spend as much money on IFA as is available to be had. Spend leftover money on penalties for going over in draft. You've probably got a mid 70's win team this upcoming season, with lots of ability to find out some things about some of the youngsters you've acquired. And tons of cash and assets to load up next offseason.

 

So your goal is trying to win in 2020 (maybe)?

 

How could you possibly come to that conclusion from what he posted? He's sacrificing 2012 to get a boatload of young guys and free up payroll to add significant pieces in the off season next year and be relatively competitive in 2013 with a lot of upside going forward.

 

-Young guys don't always pan out

-The FA class next year sucks offensively

[KingCubsFan]

Can someone explain to me why so many people are upset that Theo and the Cubs aren't spending money left and right this off season? Ask people one of the main reasons why the Cubs are in the mess that they're in and they will tell you Soriano and Zambrano's bad contracts. So why hurry to sign more contracts like that? If there is one luxury the Cubs have its that they don't have to put a competitive team on the field the next two years and they'll still sell out games. I'd rather the Cubs go on full out rebuild and be competitive for years and years to come rather than tie their hands for a pitcher who is a crap shoot and a player like Fielder who will be a DH by the time the Cubs have a decent team. Sure the NL Central is weaker with no Fielder and Pujols but the Cardinals are getting Wainright back, the Brewers will still be a decent team, and the Reds will be improved. If the Cubs got Darvish and Fielder they still would have a difficult time winning the division. If the Cubs end up signing Fielder, which I don't think they will, I won't be upset but it's not the move I want them to make. Imagine how bad the Cubs' defense would be with Fielder trying to pick Castro's throws out of the dirt?

 

Kelton/Choi/Hill/Montanez are the infield of the future

 

Prior/Cruz/Brownlie/Wood/Sisco are going to be dominant for years

 

Pie is going to be awesome. CPatt is the next Mays.

 

That's why big market teams shouldn't just blow ish up and rebuild. Because it's a complete and total crapshoot and you're far more likely to end up in the Kansas City Royals wilderness than you are with some badass homegrown team like Tampa Bay, and even they took a decade of drafting competence to become good.

 

A major market team should have the resources to carry a couple of large longer term contracts without it being crippling, not to mention the fact that we now have this supposed badass front office capable of properly coordinating the roster so you can do both.

Two of those prospects got us our two cornerstones over the past half decade.

[fromthestretch]

Imagine how bad the Cubs' defense would be with Fielder trying to pick Castro's throws out of the dirt?

 

I imagine it being not much worse than last year considering that picking throws out of the dirt is something that even terrible first basemen can do fairly well. Fielder's not good defensively, but very little of that has to do with his ability to scoop up a low throw.

[mul21]

Sell off Garza, Marshall, Soto, Marmol, and Byrd. This takes payroll down to 80ish mill range. You'll get 2 top 100 prospects for Garza, plus more. 1 top 100 prospect for Marshall. Decent returns for Soto and Marmol. DeRosa like return for Byrd. Add Edwin Jackson for 4/48 and Beltran for 2/30. Puts payroll at around 107. Get Rizzo somehow, even if it's 3 team deal involving Garza. Sign Chen for 4/20. Sign Soler for same. Payroll at 117. If you can get someone to take Soriano for 3/9, go ahead and pull trigger. Midseason go ahead and unload Dempster and Z for whatever we can. Spend as much money on IFA as is available to be had. Spend leftover money on penalties for going over in draft. You've probably got a mid 70's win team this upcoming season, with lots of ability to find out some things about some of the youngsters you've acquired. And tons of cash and assets to load up next offseason.

 

So your goal is trying to win in 2020 (maybe)?

 

How could you possibly come to that conclusion from what he posted? He's sacrificing 2012 to get a boatload of young guys and free up payroll to add significant pieces in the off season next year and be relatively competitive in 2013 with a lot of upside going forward.

 

-Young guys don't always pan out

-The FA class next year sucks offensively

 

Not the point, but they're allowed to trade some of the young guys they acquire for bats as well. The real point is that in no way does what he's suggesting indicate punting the next 4-5 seasons to build from within and be terrible while doing it. It doesn't guarantee anything, but it certainly isn't a total rebuild that's going to take 4-5 years.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Can someone explain to me why so many people are upset that Theo and the Cubs aren't spending money left and right this off season? Ask people one of the main reasons why the Cubs are in the mess that they're in and they will tell you Soriano and Zambrano's bad contracts.

 

Because that's not really one of the main reasons. It's a fairly minor reason, actually.

[jersey cubs fan]

Can someone explain to me why so many people are upset that Theo and the Cubs aren't spending money left and right this off season? Ask people one of the main reasons why the Cubs are in the mess that they're in and they will tell you Soriano and Zambrano's bad contracts.

 

The Cubs are in the "mess" they are in because their previous GM could not make a plan and had horrible priorities when acquiring players.

 

 

More accurately, however, the Cubs, as a buisiness are in very strong position and can easily afford big tickets items. There's no justification for going Oakland out there.

[davell]

Sell off Garza, Marshall, Soto, Marmol, and Byrd. This takes payroll down to 80ish mill range. You'll get 2 top 100 prospects for Garza, plus more. 1 top 100 prospect for Marshall. Decent returns for Soto and Marmol. DeRosa like return for Byrd. Add Edwin Jackson for 4/48 and Beltran for 2/30. Puts payroll at around 107. Get Rizzo somehow, even if it's 3 team deal involving Garza. Sign Chen for 4/20. Sign Soler for same. Payroll at 117. If you can get someone to take Soriano for 3/9, go ahead and pull trigger. Midseason go ahead and unload Dempster and Z for whatever we can. Spend as much money on IFA as is available to be had. Spend leftover money on penalties for going over in draft. You've probably got a mid 70's win team this upcoming season, with lots of ability to find out some things about some of the youngsters you've acquired. And tons of cash and assets to load up next offseason.

 

So your goal is trying to win in 2020 (maybe)?

 

How could you possibly come to that conclusion from what he posted? He's sacrificing 2012 to get a boatload of young guys and free up payroll to add significant pieces in the off season next year and be relatively competitive in 2013 with a lot of upside going forward.

 

-Young guys don't always pan out

-The FA class next year sucks offensively

Young guys don't always pan out. You're absolutely correct. But with this plan you've acquired enough of them to where odds are, some of them will. And yes, as I have mentioned before, next year's hitting class sucks. We've got enough in the system using my plan to go out and acquire something through trade at least. Amd the hope, of course, by doing things this way, is you also add an impact player or two, that you have very cheaply.

[mul21]

Can someone explain to me why so many people are upset that Theo and the Cubs aren't spending money left and right this off season? Ask people one of the main reasons why the Cubs are in the mess that they're in and they will tell you Soriano and Zambrano's bad contracts.

 

Because that's not really one of the main reasons. It's a fairly minor reason, actually.

 

Spending lots of money isn't the problem. Spending it on the wrong guys is. 31 yr old guys with holes in their swings aren't a good bet for an 8 yr deal. Zambrano has definitely been more of a problem since signing his deal, but I'm not sure anybody was real upset with that. Who knew he'd go completely bat [expletive] crazy like he has.

[jersey cubs fan]

Not the point, but they're allowed to trade some of the young guys they acquire for bats as well. The real point is that in no way does what he's suggesting indicate punting the next 4-5 seasons to build from within and be terrible while doing it. It doesn't guarantee anything, but it certainly isn't a total rebuild that's going to take 4-5 years.

 

He absolutely is suggesting punting longterm. If you trade off all your actually productive players, and let the rest walk, without acquiring any impact players in return, it will take an extremely long time to get back to being competitive. You would effectively be starting from scratch and that takes time. The Cubs will suck for multiple years if they do that.

[mul21]

Not the point, but they're allowed to trade some of the young guys they acquire for bats as well. The real point is that in no way does what he's suggesting indicate punting the next 4-5 seasons to build from within and be terrible while doing it. It doesn't guarantee anything, but it certainly isn't a total rebuild that's going to take 4-5 years.

 

He absolutely is suggesting punting longterm. If you trade off all your actually productive players, and let the rest walk, without acquiring any impact players in return, it will take an extremely long time to get back to being competitive. You would effectively be starting from scratch and that takes time. The Cubs will suck for multiple years if they do that.

 

No he's not. Read it again. He's setting them up for a major reload, be it from FA signings or trades, next off season. That's not a 4-5 year rebuild. The sheer volume of good prospects you'd have from trading all those guys would be huge or you'd get some very useful major league pieces that you can fill in around.

[jersey cubs fan]

Not the point, but they're allowed to trade some of the young guys they acquire for bats as well. The real point is that in no way does what he's suggesting indicate punting the next 4-5 seasons to build from within and be terrible while doing it. It doesn't guarantee anything, but it certainly isn't a total rebuild that's going to take 4-5 years.

 

He absolutely is suggesting punting longterm. If you trade off all your actually productive players, and let the rest walk, without acquiring any impact players in return, it will take an extremely long time to get back to being competitive. You would effectively be starting from scratch and that takes time. The Cubs will suck for multiple years if they do that.

 

No he's not. Read it again. He's setting them up for a major reload, be it from FA signings or trades, next off season. That's not a 4-5 year rebuild. The sheer volume of good prospects you'd have from trading all those guys would be huge or you'd get some very useful major league pieces that you can fill in around.

 

Setting yourself up for a major reload doesn't equate to enacting a major reload. You can't do a major reload that this team would need in one offseason. It's foolish to pretend you can. Free agents you think will be available won't be, or other teams will outbid for them. Trade targets that may be available will come off the market or go someplace else. If the Cubs punt, they are staying in the toilet for a while. There's no way around it.

[SouthSideRyan]

Kelton/Choi/Hill/Montanez are the infield of the future

 

Prior/Cruz/Brownlie/Wood/Sisco are going to be dominant for years

 

Pie is going to be awesome. CPatt is the next Mays.

 

Two of those prospects got us our two cornerstones over the past half decade.

 

It's really disingenuous to say Bobby Hill is what got us Ramirez.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Not the point, but they're allowed to trade some of the young guys they acquire for bats as well. The real point is that in no way does what he's suggesting indicate punting the next 4-5 seasons to build from within and be terrible while doing it. It doesn't guarantee anything, but it certainly isn't a total rebuild that's going to take 4-5 years.

 

He absolutely is suggesting punting longterm. If you trade off all your actually productive players, and let the rest walk, without acquiring any impact players in return, it will take an extremely long time to get back to being competitive. You would effectively be starting from scratch and that takes time. The Cubs will suck for multiple years if they do that.

 

No he's not. Read it again. He's setting them up for a major reload, be it from FA signings or trades, next off season. That's not a 4-5 year rebuild. The sheer volume of good prospects you'd have from trading all those guys would be huge or you'd get some very useful major league pieces that you can fill in around.

 

He's saying "Let's get rid of all our good players, and then acquire every single worthwhile player available for several offseasons." It's not realistic. If you do the first part, you will be bad for a long time.

[NewUserName]

I think the Cubs are a big market team and should act as such, but I am also against just spending money because of that reason. The Cubs probably need to be careful in the free agency market in the next few years because they already have a lot of wasted money and not much immediate help coming from the system.