Z on the 2011 Chicago Cubs: "We stinks!"

[jersey cubs fan]

If I made that comment someone would have responded saying that this isn't golf and eight others would agree.

 

Quit playing the victim with this nonsense.

[SouthSideRyan]

I'll concede the point that turnarounds can happen quickly. Having said that of the Cub teams you mentioned, the following year were indeed good but none made the WS. Being good and making the playoffs shouldn't be the goal. Only one of those teams even won a series. Maybe my expectations are unrealistic but the Cubs should be competing with the best teams in baseball, not just the division.

 

Seems like a wasteful use of resources to try to be better on paper than the Yankees when you only need to be better than the Cardinals and Brewers.

 

By being better on paper than the Yankees, you leave a lot less up to variance for a lesser Brewers or Cardinals team beating you out.

 

Yeah, the Cubs should be in a position where they dominate this division, not just occasionally flirt with the leaderboard.

 

If I made that comment someone would have responded saying that this isn't golf and eight others would agree.

 

It'd be nine others you idiot.

[BeerHere]

If I made that comment someone would have responded saying that this isn't golf and eight others would agree.

 

Quit playing the victim with this nonsense.

Not playing the victim at all, just stating a fact. I gave my opinion about Zambrano's comments and I got attacked for not agreeing with everyone. I'm sure I'm not the only person to incur the wrath, I've come to expect it from this site.

[Men in Blue]

Well, all I know is that we stinks.

[Guest]

You didn't get attacked, people challenged the stance you took. The implication you're making is that people are either disagreeing with you just because you said it, or agreeing with Goony of all people just because he said it. It's lunacy. People have dissenting opinions. Just because you have to defend yours against people who disagree, like every last person here has done, doesn't mean that there's dogma that every member is expected to fall in line with.

[BeerHere]

You didn't get attacked, people challenged the stance you took. The implication you're making is that people are either disagreeing with you just because you said it, or agreeing with Goony of all people just because he said it. It's lunacy. People have dissenting opinions. Just because you have to defend yours against people who disagree like every last person here has done doesn't mean that there's dogma that every member is expected to fall in line with.

I'll drop it

[jersey cubs fan]

You didn't get attacked, people challenged the stance you took. The implication you're making is that people are either disagreeing with you just because you said it, or agreeing with Goony of all people just because he said it. It's lunacy. People have dissenting opinions. Just because you have to defend yours against people who disagree, like every last person here has done, doesn't mean that there's dogma that every member is expected to fall in line with.

 

Of all people?

[Guest]

You heard me!

 

I'd think you'd be right at the bottom of the list of people who would agree/disagree with something just because someone else did.

[jersey cubs fan]

You heard me!

 

I'd think you'd be right at the bottom of the list of people who would agree/disagree with something just because someone else did.

 

Oh I heard you loud and clear buddy boy.

[BeerHere]

I stand by what I said. Zambrano picks the absolutely wrong media and timing for his tirades.

The right time: after the game, in the clubhouse away from the cameras and reporters who will tear him (and his trade value) apart

The wrong time: anytime you're in the dugout

The right media: a discussion with the player or manager or water cooler

the wrong media: the media

 

Entirely too much time is spent discussing Z's anger management, breaking bats etc and not enough time pointing the many faults of this team, it's management and ownership.

[jersey cubs fan]

I stand by what I said. Zambrano picks the absolutely wrong media and timing for his tirades.

The right time: after the game, in the clubhouse away from the cameras and reporters who will tear him (and his trade value) apart

The wrong time: anytime you're in the dugout

The right media: a discussion with the player or manager or water cooler

the wrong media: the media

 

Entirely too much time is spent discussing Z's anger management, breaking bats etc and not enough time pointing the many faults of this team, it's management and ownership.

 

Then stop discussing Z's anger management.

[BeerHere]

I stand by what I said. Zambrano picks the absolutely wrong media and timing for his tirades.

The right time: after the game, in the clubhouse away from the cameras and reporters who will tear him (and his trade value) apart

The wrong time: anytime you're in the dugout

The right media: a discussion with the player or manager or water cooler

the wrong media: the media

 

Entirely too much time is spent discussing Z's anger management, breaking bats etc and not enough time pointing the many faults of this team, it's management and ownership.

 

Then stop discussing Z's anger management.

Of course. How silly of me. My apologies.

[questionmarkgrace]

For BeerHere, from the debt thread:

 

Wrong. The deal for the Cubs was influenced by Sam Zell's desire that, for tax purposes, was heavy into debt. The "winner" for Zell was NOT the team that could come up with the most cash but the most financed cash. If Cuban had "won" then he would have landed on the same list--guaranteed.

 

The Ricketts family actually just plunked tens of millions more in AZ (a good chunk of the rebuid there was actually funded by them) and are able/willing to plunk 200M into the Triangle building (if they can get commitments for Wrigley). They are NOT strapped for cash. The family sold less than 20% of their shares of Ameritrade for over $400M to purchase the club.

 

They are, however, committed to rebuilding the team the way they have built their businesses--heavy commitments for infrastructure early on to pay dividends down the road. That has worked for Ameritrade (twice--first to invest in tele-trading and they purchased the first company to use the Internet for trades less than a year after the first online trade) and with TR's businesses (the one he owns and the one he ran prior to that).

 

Similarly, the Ricketts are investing in the Cubs (farm system, Mesa and, eventually, the Wrigley complex and CUBTV). For decades (under, essentially, two owners) the infrastructure of the Cubs was ignored. Now the team has ownership that is investing in the club's future (and willing to invest much more). That isn't bad ownership. That is very good ownership.

 

That (and the Latin American "academy" and expansion) is what you can point to if you wonder what the Ricketts' commitments are to this team being better down the line.

 

Again, I really want them to take another huge step and drop the deadweight that is Hendry, but the repeated insistence that they're doing "nothing" or idiots like Rosenbloom and his "fanboy" garbage are just ignorant.

 

I'm not sure if I agree with you. Yes it seems like he is doing more, but in actuality the majority of this stuff was already in place under the tribune. We had already been scouting big in asia in 06,07, and 08. Before Ricketts owned the team. Guys like Dhee Eun Rhee and Hak Ju Lee were tribune(Sam Zell) signings. In Latin America nothing has really changed we still sign mid level guys and refuse to get into bidding wars for the top talents. We may have signed more of those guys last year, im not sure, but we also put up top dollar for guys like larry suarez with the tribune. Also dont forget, the cubs didnt decide to begin building a new latin america complex until multiple articles detailed the deplorable conditions and slave like quarters the kids were being kept in. The fight for a new spring complex has been going on for years and any owner would have been negotiating with Mesa to get a new stadium built as Ho Ho Kam was severely out dated and our contract was up. Plans for the wrigley complex and the triangle building have been in place since I think 05 or 06 when they first hit the papers.

 

I guess my point is he is doing pretty much what the tribune already had planned or were in the process of doing. Sure thats an improvement off of the tribune in the 80's and 90's but its not what most expected a new owner to do. The only decisions that I have seen him make were concerning new revenue sources, increasing ticket prices, soliciting the state for more revenue (with really bad timing), overseeing the choice for a new manager.

 

I think I speak for most when I thought a new owner would bring more to the table.

 

And what exactly did you hope a new owner would bring to the table in a season and a half outside of getting rid of Hendry?

 

And the Tribune was all talk. The Ricketts are actually laying the groundwork for improving this organization across the board. It's all well and good what the Tribune claimed it WANTED to do, but the Ricketts are already actually taking the steps to get these things done.

 

Well its not like the tribune was going to get mesa done before the contract was up. That would just sabotage their leverage. That really was the only thing Ricketts has moved forward on. Like I said the complex in latin america would probably have remained the same if it wasnt for the media pressure at which point they would have been forced to make changes as well.

 

We can all agree he should have fired hendry and hired someone with a clear organizational philosophy. He probably should have fired a lot of our scouts and upper management with him. Some of these guys have been working for the cubs for 20 to 30 years (no joke read it in an article last year) contributing to a losing environment. Hire good experienced coaches in the minors, not just ex-players with some former cubs affiliation. Keep scouting in Asia, but commit even more to Latin America, not just the islands but central and south america, where more and more prospects are coming from. Moreover, I really expected him to be better equipped to handle the economic affairs of the cubs. Any serious fan could have told you that three ticket increases in a row in the midst of a recession and predictably poor play would lead to a dramatic decline in attendance. Or that political leaders would be apprehensive to divert revenue toward a stadium in the midst of a recession.

[BeerHere]

For BeerHere, from the debt thread:

 

Wrong. The deal for the Cubs was influenced by Sam Zell's desire that, for tax purposes, was heavy into debt. The "winner" for Zell was NOT the team that could come up with the most cash but the most financed cash. If Cuban had "won" then he would have landed on the same list--guaranteed.

 

The Ricketts family actually just plunked tens of millions more in AZ (a good chunk of the rebuid there was actually funded by them) and are able/willing to plunk 200M into the Triangle building (if they can get commitments for Wrigley). They are NOT strapped for cash. The family sold less than 20% of their shares of Ameritrade for over $400M to purchase the club.

 

They are, however, committed to rebuilding the team the way they have built their businesses--heavy commitments for infrastructure early on to pay dividends down the road. That has worked for Ameritrade (twice--first to invest in tele-trading and they purchased the first company to use the Internet for trades less than a year after the first online trade) and with TR's businesses (the one he owns and the one he ran prior to that).

 

Similarly, the Ricketts are investing in the Cubs (farm system, Mesa and, eventually, the Wrigley complex and CUBTV). For decades (under, essentially, two owners) the infrastructure of the Cubs was ignored. Now the team has ownership that is investing in the club's future (and willing to invest much more). That isn't bad ownership. That is very good ownership.

 

That (and the Latin American "academy" and expansion) is what you can point to if you wonder what the Ricketts' commitments are to this team being better down the line.

 

Again, I really want them to take another huge step and drop the deadweight that is Hendry, but the repeated insistence that they're doing "nothing" or idiots like Rosenbloom and his "fanboy" garbage are just ignorant.

 

I'm not sure if I agree with you. Yes it seems like he is doing more, but in actuality the majority of this stuff was already in place under the tribune. We had already been scouting big in asia in 06,07, and 08. Before Ricketts owned the team. Guys like Dhee Eun Rhee and Hak Ju Lee were tribune(Sam Zell) signings. In Latin America nothing has really changed we still sign mid level guys and refuse to get into bidding wars for the top talents. We may have signed more of those guys last year, im not sure, but we also put up top dollar for guys like larry suarez with the tribune. Also dont forget, the cubs didnt decide to begin building a new latin america complex until multiple articles detailed the deplorable conditions and slave like quarters the kids were being kept in. The fight for a new spring complex has been going on for years and any owner would have been negotiating with Mesa to get a new stadium built as Ho Ho Kam was severely out dated and our contract was up. Plans for the wrigley complex and the triangle building have been in place since I think 05 or 06 when they first hit the papers.

 

I guess my point is he is doing pretty much what the tribune already had planned or were in the process of doing. Sure thats an improvement off of the tribune in the 80's and 90's but its not what most expected a new owner to do. The only decisions that I have seen him make were concerning new revenue sources, increasing ticket prices, soliciting the state for more revenue (with really bad timing), overseeing the choice for a new manager.

 

I think I speak for most when I thought a new owner would bring more to the table.

 

And what exactly did you hope a new owner would bring to the table in a season and a half outside of getting rid of Hendry?

 

And the Tribune was all talk. The Ricketts are actually laying the groundwork for improving this organization across the board. It's all well and good what the Tribune claimed it WANTED to do, but the Ricketts are already actually taking the steps to get these things done.

 

Well its not like the tribune was going to get mesa done before the contract was up. That would be just sabotage their leverage. That really was the only thing Ricketts has moved forward on. Like I said the complex in latin america would probably have remained this same if it wasnt for the media pressure at which point they would have been forced to make changes as well.

 

We can all agree he should have fired hendry and hired someone with a clear organizational philosophy. He probably should have fired a lot of our scouts and upper management with him. Some of these guys have been working for the cubs for 20 to 30 years (no joke read it in an article last year) contributing to a losing environment. Hire good experienced coaches in the minors, not just ex-players with some former cubs affiliation. Keep scouting in Asia, but commit even more to Latin America, not just the islands but central and south america, where more and more prospects are coming from. Moreover, I really expected him to be better equipped to handle the economic affairs of the cubs. Any serious fan could have told you that three ticket increases in a row in the midst of a recession and predictably poor play would lead to a dramatic decline in attendance. Or that political leaders would be apprehensive to divert revenue toward a stadium in the midst of a recession.

The way he handled the Wrigley project was terrible. Going to the state requesting money given the recession, teacher layoffs, higher property taxes etc...that was bad. The only leverage he has he lost when he publicly said they would never consider leaving Wrigley. I would contend that we need a baseball person running the organization. Krane Kenney isn't the right man. Hendry needs to go and if the entire scouting department goes with him then so be it.

[Tryptamine]

Well its not like the tribune was going to get mesa done before the contract was up. That would be just sabotage their leverage. That really was the only thing Ricketts has moved forward on. Like I said the complex in latin america would probably have remained this same if it wasnt for the media pressure at which point they would have been forced to make changes as well.

 

We can all agree he should have fired hendry and hired someone with a clear organizational philosophy. He probably should have fired a lot of our scouts and upper management with him. Some of these guys have been working for the cubs for 20 to 30 years (no joke read it in an article last year) contributing to a losing environment. Hire good experienced coaches in the minors, not just ex-players with some former cubs affiliation. Keep scouting in Asia, but commit even more to Latin America, not just the islands but central and south america, where more and more prospects are coming from. Moreover, I really expected him to be better equipped to handle the economic affairs of the cubs. Any serious fan could have told you that three ticket increases in a row in the midst of a recession and predictably poor play would lead to a dramatic decline in attendance. Or that political leaders would be apprehensive to divert revenue toward a stadium in the midst of a recession.

 

I actually like their recruiting philosophy concerning Asia. They're getting tons of talent at less than half the price they'd have to pay for equivalent South American talent. The bang for the buck just isn't all that great in South America anymore.

[BeerHere]

According to this http://www.mesaaz.gov/bettermesa/pdf/cubs/FactSheetPlan.pdf the city of Mesa is paying for a lot of new ST complex. The Cubs, MLB and "other" private investors are also listed. The total price is $84M. The notion that the Ricketts family is paying "tens of millions" for the new ST facilities is most likely wrong. I'm sure they some of the private financing is coming from them but the majority is elsewhere.

[davearm2]

Well its not like the tribune was going to get mesa done before the contract was up. That would be just sabotage their leverage. That really was the only thing Ricketts has moved forward on. Like I said the complex in latin america would probably have remained this same if it wasnt for the media pressure at which point they would have been forced to make changes as well.

 

We can all agree he should have fired hendry and hired someone with a clear organizational philosophy. He probably should have fired a lot of our scouts and upper management with him. Some of these guys have been working for the cubs for 20 to 30 years (no joke read it in an article last year) contributing to a losing environment. Hire good experienced coaches in the minors, not just ex-players with some former cubs affiliation. Keep scouting in Asia, but commit even more to Latin America, not just the islands but central and south america, where more and more prospects are coming from. Moreover, I really expected him to be better equipped to handle the economic affairs of the cubs. Any serious fan could have told you that three ticket increases in a row in the midst of a recession and predictably poor play would lead to a dramatic decline in attendance. Or that political leaders would be apprehensive to divert revenue toward a stadium in the midst of a recession.

 

I actually like their recruiting philosophy concerning Asia. They're getting tons of talent at less than half the price they'd have to pay for equivalent South American talent. The bang for the buck just isn't all that great in South America anymore.

Somebody get Tryp a map ASAP.

[davearm2]

And what exactly did you hope a new owner would bring to the table in a season and a half outside of getting rid of Hendry?

 

And the Tribune was all talk. The Ricketts are actually laying the groundwork for improving this organization across the board. It's all well and good what the Tribune claimed it WANTED to do, but the Ricketts are already actually taking the steps to get these things done.

 

I think the second half of the Tribune ownership did some real things. The biggest mistakes they made was not hiring the right baseball people. But in the early 90's they went out and got a hot shot young exec in Andy MacPhail to run things and make a commitment to building through the minor league system. They also spent more and more every year on payroll, giving unprecedented resources to the team. They also laid the groundwork for the first real upgrades to Wrigley Field and got them done.

I agree. A good owner will...

 

a) hire the right people;

b) open the checkbook; and

c) stay the heck out of the way.

 

The Trib definitely did b) and c), and tried to do a). In the end, MacPhail's small-market tendencies just didn't work here.

 

Ricketts and co have yet to establish a), b), or c). But they haven't given us a reason to believe they'll fail on any of these, either.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Well its not like the tribune was going to get mesa done before the contract was up. That would be just sabotage their leverage. That really was the only thing Ricketts has moved forward on. Like I said the complex in latin america would probably have remained this same if it wasnt for the media pressure at which point they would have been forced to make changes as well.

 

We can all agree he should have fired hendry and hired someone with a clear organizational philosophy. He probably should have fired a lot of our scouts and upper management with him. Some of these guys have been working for the cubs for 20 to 30 years (no joke read it in an article last year) contributing to a losing environment. Hire good experienced coaches in the minors, not just ex-players with some former cubs affiliation. Keep scouting in Asia, but commit even more to Latin America, not just the islands but central and south america, where more and more prospects are coming from. Moreover, I really expected him to be better equipped to handle the economic affairs of the cubs. Any serious fan could have told you that three ticket increases in a row in the midst of a recession and predictably poor play would lead to a dramatic decline in attendance. Or that political leaders would be apprehensive to divert revenue toward a stadium in the midst of a recession.

 

I actually like their recruiting philosophy concerning Asia. They're getting tons of talent at less than half the price they'd have to pay for equivalent South American talent. The bang for the buck just isn't all that great in South America anymore.

Somebody get Tryp a map ASAP.

So he can show you where Venezuela is?

[Sammy Sofa]

And what exactly did you hope a new owner would bring to the table in a season and a half outside of getting rid of Hendry?

 

And the Tribune was all talk. The Ricketts are actually laying the groundwork for improving this organization across the board. It's all well and good what the Tribune claimed it WANTED to do, but the Ricketts are already actually taking the steps to get these things done.

 

I think the second half of the Tribune ownership did some real things. The biggest mistakes they made was not hiring the right baseball people. But in the early 90's they went out and got a hot shot young exec in Andy MacPhail to run things and make a commitment to building through the minor league system. They also spent more and more every year on payroll, giving unprecedented resources to the team. They also laid the groundwork for the first real upgrades to Wrigley Field and got them done.

 

True. It would be nice to see the same FO overhaul again.

[Sammy Sofa]

The way he handled the Wrigley project was terrible. Going to the state requesting money given the recession, teacher layoffs, higher property taxes etc...that was bad. The only leverage he has he lost when he publicly said they would never consider leaving Wrigley. I would contend that we need a baseball person running the organization. Krane Kenney isn't the right man. Hendry needs to go and if the entire scouting department goes with him then so be it.

 

It wasn't terrible. That's what owners do whenever they need to do major renovations or a new stadium. What are you proposing, that the Ricketts wait until the Illinois economy gets out of the toilet until they ask for backing (that, again, owners do ALL THE TIME) for something that needs to be done sooner rather than later to help maximize their investment and thus help improve the team? Well, I've got bad news for you then...

[NCCubFan]

Big Z has apologized.

 

We still stinks.

[Men in Blue]

"What's the big deal about this?" Zambrano said before the Cubs opened a three-game series against the Cincinnati Reds. "I don't understand. I say what I say yesterday. I was frustrated."

 

Quades take:

 

"Those comments were totally out of frustration,’’ Quade said. “… It’s a situation I somewhat understand. You have to choose your words carefully when you're upset.''

 

Asked about calls in the media for the Cubs to punish Zambrano, Quade said, "People view these things in different ways. Carlos has been really, really good -- and I’m not just talking about his performance (on the field) -- since his sabbatical last year. A little bit of frustration does not change that at all. But people are entitled to their opinions.’’

 

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/sports/cubs/cbsports-latest-zambrano-incident-could-blow-over-20110606,0,7898284.story

[Men in Blue]

And yes, we still stinks.

[questionmarkgrace]

And what exactly did you hope a new owner would bring to the table in a season and a half outside of getting rid of Hendry?

 

And the Tribune was all talk. The Ricketts are actually laying the groundwork for improving this organization across the board. It's all well and good what the Tribune claimed it WANTED to do, but the Ricketts are already actually taking the steps to get these things done.

 

I think the second half of the Tribune ownership did some real things. The biggest mistakes they made was not hiring the right baseball people. But in the early 90's they went out and got a hot shot young exec in Andy MacPhail to run things and make a commitment to building through the minor league system. They also spent more and more every year on payroll, giving unprecedented resources to the team. They also laid the groundwork for the first real upgrades to Wrigley Field and got them done.

I agree. A good owner will...

 

a) hire the right people;

b) open the checkbook; and

c) stay the heck out of the way.

 

The Trib definitely did b) and c), and tried to do a). In the end, MacPhail's small-market tendencies just didn't work here.

 

Ricketts and co have yet to establish a), b), or c). But they haven't given us a reason to believe they'll fail on any of these, either.

 

Nuts&Gum suggested that they had done these things already. I was merely pointing out that they have followed the track that was already in place and have yet to really make any clear decisions about a or b. I think scouting in asia is awesome I would like to see them get in china as well. But latin america has some great talent, maybe overpriced maybe not. But as a major market team we should be signing a million plus guy in latin america every year.