Z on the 2011 Chicago Cubs: "We stinks!"

[Little Slide Rooter]

Ricketts - rhymes with "No one's buying tickets''

 

Awesome.

 

I spy a flaw in this surely relevant reasoning though. It also rhymes with "Everybody's buying tickets".

 

not to mention pickets, wickets, crickets, lickets, and anything else ending in ickets.

[BeerHere]

For BeerHere, from the debt thread:

 

Wrong. The deal for the Cubs was influenced by Sam Zell's desire that, for tax purposes, was heavy into debt. The "winner" for Zell was NOT the team that could come up with the most cash but the most financed cash. If Cuban had "won" then he would have landed on the same list--guaranteed.

 

The Ricketts family actually just plunked tens of millions more in AZ (a good chunk of the rebuid there was actually funded by them) and are able/willing to plunk 200M into the Triangle building (if they can get commitments for Wrigley). They are NOT strapped for cash. The family sold less than 20% of their shares of Ameritrade for over $400M to purchase the club.

 

They are, however, committed to rebuilding the team the way they have built their businesses--heavy commitments for infrastructure early on to pay dividends down the road. That has worked for Ameritrade (twice--first to invest in tele-trading and they purchased the first company to use the Internet for trades less than a year after the first online trade) and with TR's businesses (the one he owns and the one he ran prior to that).

 

Similarly, the Ricketts are investing in the Cubs (farm system, Mesa and, eventually, the Wrigley complex and CUBTV). For decades (under, essentially, two owners) the infrastructure of the Cubs was ignored. Now the team has ownership that is investing in the club's future (and willing to invest much more). That isn't bad ownership. That is very good ownership.

 

That (and the Latin American "academy" and expansion) is what you can point to if you wonder what the Ricketts' commitments are to this team being better down the line.

 

Again, I really want them to take another huge step and drop the deadweight that is Hendry, but the repeated insistence that they're doing "nothing" or idiots like Rosenbloom and his "fanboy" garbage are just ignorant.

The Wrigley complex didn't happen, mostly because they wanted $200M from the state. CubTV hasn't happened. I may be wrong here, but wasn't much of the spring training complex paid for by the city/county as well? They went cheap in the 2010 draft (a big market team should not be spending in the middle of the pack on the draft). When Henry bought the Red Sox, he spent piles of his own money to make changes starting from within the organization. He didn't cry poor to an already cash-strapped state. This conversation is deviating from the topic of this thread so I'll make my final point:

1. I have seen little from Ricketts that makes me think he is committed to change anything

2. You are a fool if you assume that $60M will be spent this offseason

3. If you think this team (plus some offseason acquisitions) is going to complete next year you're delusional. Rapid turnarounds happen but not that often and not this severely.

[BeerHere]

This team is going nowhere. Z and Marmol have the most value and the Cubs won't really be in a position to contend while their contracts are on the books so we might as well trade them for prospects that will be a part of the future.

 

Stop saying this like it's fact. With the money coming off the books the Cubs could very easily be competitive as early as next season. No, it's by no means a lock, but that so many people have this automatic assumption that the Cubs are going to so hopelessly suck and can do nothing about it for the next 3+ seasons is absurd.

 

It certainly isn't a fact but has there been any indication otherwise? The payroll was cut coming into this season. Attendance is WAY down this year and I think it is foolish to assume that the money coming off the books will automatically be put back into the payroll for 2012. What exactly has Ricketts done or said that makes you think he's committed to winning at all costs?

 

Are you serious? Ricketts is going to respond to dwindling attendance by cutting the payroll by 25% and not put anything back into it?

 

Ricketts knew when he bought the team that the payroll was right up to the limit and actually a little more than he could handle. So yeah because of moves made before he was owner, we've been struggling to do anything that adds payroll to the team. But there has been nothing said or done to indicate that Ricketts is going to randomly cut the payroll down to 80M or whatever. That's insane.

Where did I say that the payroll is getting cut to $80M? I said it is foolish to think that all $60M will automatically be spent just because it is available. The payroll is at least partially derived from the gates and there are a lot less people paying to see games this year. You don't think that will impact payroll?

[BeerHere]

I don't have a problem with what he said at all and I completely agree with him but.....did any of his teammates call him out when he was terrible last year? Did anyone question Z's pitch selection to the media when he was brutal? My biggest issue with Z is that he seems to be at his worst when the team is struggling.

 

What are you talking about? This team has been terrible and he's been good.

I was referring to the first half last year.

 

So his struggles once coincided with the team's struggles, but he's pitching well while the team is nosediving. That doesn't add up to "he seems to be at his worst when the team is struggling." He was really good in 2005 and 2006, he was better than people care to admit in 2010.

He had a good second half in 2010. The first half wasn't nearly as good and let's not forget that he fought with a teammate, was suspended missing a lot of starts, went to anger management etc. During his struggles did Marmol or anyone go to the media and say "He should have better pitch selection" - no. Z is at his worst (behavior) when the team is least prepared to handle it (losing streak).

[jersey cubs fan]

He had a good second half in 2010. The first half wasn't nearly as good and let's not forget that he fought with a teammate, was suspended missing a lot of starts, went to anger management etc. During his struggles did Marmol or anyone go to the media and say "He should have better pitch selection" - no. Z is at his worst (behavior) when the team is least prepared to handle it (losing streak).

 

So he gets pissed when the team loses.

 

What a jerk.

[SouthSideRyan]

I don't have a problem with what he said at all and I completely agree with him but.....did any of his teammates call him out when he was terrible last year? Did anyone question Z's pitch selection to the media when he was brutal? My biggest issue with Z is that he seems to be at his worst when the team is struggling.

 

What are you talking about? This team has been terrible and he's been good.

I was referring to the first half last year.

 

So his struggles once coincided with the team's struggles, but he's pitching well while the team is nosediving. That doesn't add up to "he seems to be at his worst when the team is struggling." He was really good in 2005 and 2006, he was better than people care to admit in 2010.

He had a good second half in 2010. The first half wasn't nearly as good and let's not forget that he fought with a teammate, was suspended missing a lot of starts, went to anger management etc. During his struggles did Marmol or anyone go to the media and say "He should have better pitch selection" - no. Z is at his worst (behavior) when the team is least prepared to handle it (losing streak).

 

Remind me again of his incidents in '05, '06, and '09?

 

Oh and down the stretch in '04. And the '07 playoffs. And the '08 playoffs.

Edited June 6, 2011 by SouthSideRyan

[Men in Blue]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Q6TZq05jaX8/TCfFbjyppRI/AAAAAAAAAlg/QDdfMVGlqy8/s400/resized_Zambrano

 

"You still stinks, too, DLee. All of you stinks"

[BeerHere]

He had a good second half in 2010. The first half wasn't nearly as good and let's not forget that he fought with a teammate, was suspended missing a lot of starts, went to anger management etc. During his struggles did Marmol or anyone go to the media and say "He should have better pitch selection" - no. Z is at his worst (behavior) when the team is least prepared to handle it (losing streak).

 

So he gets pissed when the team loses.

 

What a jerk.

Like I've said several times now, I completely agree with his assessment. I disagree with the methods and timing of his critiques.

[BeerHere]

Remind me again of his incidents in '05, '06, and '09?

 

Oh and down the stretch in '04. And the '07 playoffs. And the '08 playoffs.

WTF are you talking about? I'm questioning the timing of his comment and the methods that he chose to deliver them. I completely agree with his statements. I hate that he called out Marmol through the media. Coming from Zambrano, it seems too "pot calling the kettle black".

[SouthSideRyan]

Remind me again of his incidents in '05, '06, and '09?

 

Oh and down the stretch in '04. And the '07 playoffs. And the '08 playoffs.

WTF are you talking about? I'm questioning the timing of his comment and the methods that he chose to deliver them. I completely agree with his statements. I hate that he called out Marmol through the media. Coming from Zambrano, it seems too "pot calling the kettle black".

 

Z is at his worst (behavior) when the team is least prepared to handle it (losing streak).

[BeerHere]

I'll go on record right now - I would love to trade Zambrano for prospects. I would have said that a week ago, at the start of the season and after every good start he's had this year. This team is doing NOTHING this year, might as well try and turn him into a couple pieces to build around going forward.

 

Commence NSBB group-think:

"But he's a good pitcher. I love his passion. Etc Etc"

 

His value is high right now. Trade him for good prospects and I'll be the first to say "see ya!"

[SouthSideRyan]

But those prospects won't even be on our next good team in 2019.

[BeerHere]

Remind me again of his incidents in '05, '06, and '09?

 

Oh and down the stretch in '04. And the '07 playoffs. And the '08 playoffs.

WTF are you talking about? I'm questioning the timing of his comment and the methods that he chose to deliver them. I completely agree with his statements. I hate that he called out Marmol through the media. Coming from Zambrano, it seems too "pot calling the kettle black".

 

Z is at his worst (behavior) when the team is least prepared to handle it (losing streak).

 

I fail to see your point. Are you calling me hypocritical? I'll ask you -- how do you feel about Zambrano and his comments?

[Banedon]

I'll go on record right now - I would love to trade Zambrano for prospects. I would have said that a week ago, at the start of the season and after every good start he's had this year. This team is doing NOTHING this year, might as well try and turn him into a couple pieces to build around going forward.

 

Commence NSBB group-think:

"But he's a good pitcher. I love his passion. Etc Etc"

 

His value is high right now. Trade him for good prospects and I'll be the first to say "see ya!"

 

Good choice, sir. The premptive "if you disagree with me, it's NSBB group think" is a classic.

[BeerHere]

But those prospects won't even be on our next good team in 2019.

 

And you think that keeping this crap team around and spending $60M in the offseason willl fix this?

[BeerHere]

I'll go on record right now - I would love to trade Zambrano for prospects. I would have said that a week ago, at the start of the season and after every good start he's had this year. This team is doing NOTHING this year, might as well try and turn him into a couple pieces to build around going forward.

 

Commence NSBB group-think:

"But he's a good pitcher. I love his passion. Etc Etc"

 

His value is high right now. Trade him for good prospects and I'll be the first to say "see ya!"

 

Good choice, sir. The premptive "if you disagree with me, it's NSBB group think" is a classic.

Anyone that has a dissenting opinion here is automatically a fool.

[Little Slide Rooter]

I'll go on record right now - I would love to trade Zambrano for prospects. I would have said that a week ago, at the start of the season and after every good start he's had this year. This team is doing NOTHING this year, might as well try and turn him into a couple pieces to build around going forward.

 

Commence NSBB group-think:

"But he's a good pitcher. I love his passion. Etc Etc"

 

His value is high right now. Trade him for good prospects and I'll be the first to say "see ya!"

 

Good choice, sir. The premptive "if you disagree with me, it's NSBB group think" is a classic.

Anyone that has a dissenting opinion here is automatically a fool.

 

The irony here is that the general NSBB "groupthink" is that we would trade Z for the RIGHT prospects, but to railroad him out of town for nothing or a bad contract would be ludicris, especially considering the state of the team as is. It would have nothing to do with any comments hes made, just that it would be the wise move.

[BeerHere]

I'll go on record right now - I would love to trade Zambrano for prospects. I would have said that a week ago, at the start of the season and after every good start he's had this year. This team is doing NOTHING this year, might as well try and turn him into a couple pieces to build around going forward.

 

Commence NSBB group-think:

"But he's a good pitcher. I love his passion. Etc Etc"

 

His value is high right now. Trade him for good prospects and I'll be the first to say "see ya!"

 

Good choice, sir. The premptive "if you disagree with me, it's NSBB group think" is a classic.

Anyone that has a dissenting opinion here is automatically a fool.

 

The irony here is that the general NSBB "groupthink" is that we would trade Z for the RIGHT prospects, but to railroad him out of town for nothing or a bad contract would be ludicris, especially considering the state of the team as is.

And where did I railroad him out of town for a bad contract or nothing? Any trade of Zambrano needs to return players to build around.

[SouthSideRyan]

Remind me again of his incidents in '05, '06, and '09?

 

Oh and down the stretch in '04. And the '07 playoffs. And the '08 playoffs.

WTF are you talking about? I'm questioning the timing of his comment and the methods that he chose to deliver them. I completely agree with his statements. I hate that he called out Marmol through the media. Coming from Zambrano, it seems too "pot calling the kettle black".

 

Z is at his worst (behavior) when the team is least prepared to handle it (losing streak).

 

I fail to see your point. Are you calling me hypocritical? I'll ask you -- how do you feel about Zambrano and his comments?

 

Hypocritical? I'm saying you said he's at his worst behavior when the team is losing, yet can't provide examples of his cancerous behavior in all those other losing times.

 

Regarding his comments, I don't really care. It's a competitive player venting about a shitty season. Doesn't change my opinion of him at all. You don't think Marmol was pissed at himself for his performance, I really doubt there's some beef between them because of it. You don't think the rest of the team is pissed about their performance? They know they've sucked, Z saying it doesn't change anything.

[Little Slide Rooter]

I'll go on record right now - I would love to trade Zambrano for prospects. I would have said that a week ago, at the start of the season and after every good start he's had this year. This team is doing NOTHING this year, might as well try and turn him into a couple pieces to build around going forward.

 

Commence NSBB group-think:

"But he's a good pitcher. I love his passion. Etc Etc"

 

His value is high right now. Trade him for good prospects and I'll be the first to say "see ya!"

 

Good choice, sir. The premptive "if you disagree with me, it's NSBB group think" is a classic.

Anyone that has a dissenting opinion here is automatically a fool.

 

The irony here is that the general NSBB "groupthink" is that we would trade Z for the RIGHT prospects, but to railroad him out of town for nothing or a bad contract would be ludicris, especially considering the state of the team as is.

And where did I railroad him out of town for a bad contract or nothing? Any trade of Zambrano needs to return players to build around.

 

Yes, and thats how most people feel, but your making it sound like your going against the grain here and standing up to the NSBB powers that be by suggesting this.

[Banedon]

but to railroad him out of town for nothing or a bad contract would be ludicris

 

http://allindstrom.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/baseball-luda-200x200.jpg

 

I'd need to see Ludacris's splits before I'd consider that trade.

[Sammy Sofa]

For BeerHere, from the debt thread:

 

Wrong. The deal for the Cubs was influenced by Sam Zell's desire that, for tax purposes, was heavy into debt. The "winner" for Zell was NOT the team that could come up with the most cash but the most financed cash. If Cuban had "won" then he would have landed on the same list--guaranteed.

 

The Ricketts family actually just plunked tens of millions more in AZ (a good chunk of the rebuid there was actually funded by them) and are able/willing to plunk 200M into the Triangle building (if they can get commitments for Wrigley). They are NOT strapped for cash. The family sold less than 20% of their shares of Ameritrade for over $400M to purchase the club.

 

They are, however, committed to rebuilding the team the way they have built their businesses--heavy commitments for infrastructure early on to pay dividends down the road. That has worked for Ameritrade (twice--first to invest in tele-trading and they purchased the first company to use the Internet for trades less than a year after the first online trade) and with TR's businesses (the one he owns and the one he ran prior to that).

 

Similarly, the Ricketts are investing in the Cubs (farm system, Mesa and, eventually, the Wrigley complex and CUBTV). For decades (under, essentially, two owners) the infrastructure of the Cubs was ignored. Now the team has ownership that is investing in the club's future (and willing to invest much more). That isn't bad ownership. That is very good ownership.

 

That (and the Latin American "academy" and expansion) is what you can point to if you wonder what the Ricketts' commitments are to this team being better down the line.

 

Again, I really want them to take another huge step and drop the deadweight that is Hendry, but the repeated insistence that they're doing "nothing" or idiots like Rosenbloom and his "fanboy" garbage are just ignorant.

The Wrigley complex didn't happen, mostly because they wanted $200M from the state. CubTV hasn't happened. I may be wrong here, but wasn't much of the spring training complex paid for by the city/county as well? They went cheap in the 2010 draft (a big market team should not be spending in the middle of the pack on the draft). When Henry bought the Red Sox, he spent piles of his own money to make changes starting from within the organization. He didn't cry poor to an already cash-strapped state. This conversation is deviating from the topic of this thread so I'll make my final point:

1. I have seen little from Ricketts that makes me think he is committed to change anything

2. You are a fool if you assume that $60M will be spent this offseason

3. If you think this team (plus some offseason acquisitions) is going to complete next year you're delusional. Rapid turnarounds happen but not that often and not this severely.

 

I'm sorry, but I can't take this any further. You've already come to a melodramatic conclusion and you're going to twist everything you hear to fit it. Your expectations are unrealistic given the short time the Ricketts have owned the team and your thinking that CubsTV and the complex aren't going to happen because they haven't happened yet is baffling.

 

Hey guys, rapid turnarounds don't happen! Guess 2006-2007 didn't actually occur!

[jersey cubs fan]

I'll go on record right now - I would love to trade Zambrano for prospects. I would have said that a week ago, at the start of the season and after every good start he's had this year. This team is doing NOTHING this year, might as well try and turn him into a couple pieces to build around going forward.

 

Commence NSBB group-think:

"But he's a good pitcher. I love his passion. Etc Etc"

 

His value is high right now. Trade him for good prospects and I'll be the first to say "see ya!"

 

You aren't really going out on a limb saying you would trade Zambrano for the right prospects. So would I, if it was possible.

 

But it's pretty ridiculous to preemptively blame the so-called NSBB group think for discovering that some people might actually disagree with something you say.

[SouthSideRyan]

I'll go on record right now - I would love to trade Zambrano for prospects. I would have said that a week ago, at the start of the season and after every good start he's had this year. This team is doing NOTHING this year, might as well try and turn him into a couple pieces to build around going forward.

 

Commence NSBB group-think:

"But he's a good pitcher. I love his passion. Etc Etc"

 

His value is high right now. Trade him for good prospects and I'll be the first to say "see ya!"

 

Good choice, sir. The premptive "if you disagree with me, it's NSBB group think" is a classic.

Anyone that has a dissenting opinion here is automatically a fool.

 

1.You are a fool if you assume that $60M will be spent this offseason

3. If you think this team (plus some offseason acquisitions) is going to complete next year you're delusional.

[SouthSideRyan]

Hey guys, rapid turnarounds don't happen! Guess 2006-2007 didn't actually occur!

 

The funny thing is, recent good teams for the Cubs have mostly been rapid turnarounds.

 

'97-98.

'00-'01

'02-'03

'06-'07.