Re: Wow Castro

[chopsx9]

Should probably take into account the context of Starlin's walks which likely inflates that IsoD and OBP....

 

17 of his 20 walks have come in the 8th spot while a bit under half of his PA's have come in that spot. How many times have we seen Starlin either be intentionally walked or blatantly pitched around?

 

I know, I know. Sample size... but for that same reason, I don't think his rate stats are really representative of his plate discipline at the major league level at this point.

 

The 8 spot does have something to do with his walk totals, but not as much as saying 17/20 in under half his PA's does. Looking at it by outs:

 

0 out: 79 PA's, 5 BB

1 out: 92 PA's, 4 BB

2 out: 81 PA's, 11 BB

 

Even in the 8 spot he isn't going to see too many unintentional intentional walks with <2 outs, so you can probably conclude that 5-6 of those are directly related to his batting order spot. Of course, just removing those doesn't give an accurate picture either, because he gets a hit 3/10 times, and it's obviously very encouraging to see that he's willing to take those walks that other swingers like Castro would've turned into K's.

 

I'm not sure I'm following. Isn't he more likely to get UIBB with 2 outs and runners on in the 8th spot? I would guess that in most other spots that's not going to happen at this stage of his career. (I'm guessing he was followed by Lee and Soto in most other PAs) 35% of his walks (7) have been IBB - don't know how many of those were in the 8th spot but it would have to be at least 4.

 

 

I'm not trying take away from his season at all -but I think I would agree with the poster that said his totals may not be indicitive of his patience to this point. Which says nothing definate about how he develops from here. If there are a lot of UIBB it is certainly encouraging that he is taking them.

 

That said if you take away the IBB Colvin has walked more often in fewer AB's.

[Guest]

Should probably take into account the context of Starlin's walks which likely inflates that IsoD and OBP....

 

17 of his 20 walks have come in the 8th spot while a bit under half of his PA's have come in that spot. How many times have we seen Starlin either be intentionally walked or blatantly pitched around?

 

I know, I know. Sample size... but for that same reason, I don't think his rate stats are really representative of his plate discipline at the major league level at this point.

 

The 8 spot does have something to do with his walk totals, but not as much as saying 17/20 in under half his PA's does. Looking at it by outs:

 

0 out: 79 PA's, 5 BB

1 out: 92 PA's, 4 BB

2 out: 81 PA's, 11 BB

 

Even in the 8 spot he isn't going to see too many unintentional intentional walks with <2 outs, so you can probably conclude that 5-6 of those are directly related to his batting order spot. Of course, just removing those doesn't give an accurate picture either, because he gets a hit 3/10 times, and it's obviously very encouraging to see that he's willing to take those walks that other swingers like Castro would've turned into K's.

 

I'm not sure I'm following. Isn't he more likely to get UIBB with 2 outs and runners on in the 8th spot? I would guess that in most other spots that's not going to happen at this stage of his career. (I'm guessing he was followed by Lee and Soto in most other PAs) 35% of his walks (7) have been IBB - don't know how many of those were in the 8th spot but it would have to be at least 4.

 

Right. I wasn't trying to say that his walk totals weren't a little inflated, but just that it's not quite as bad is it seems by saying 17 of 20 walks came in the 8 spot.

[Keener98]

theriot's hit 8th quite a bit this year too, and he has fewer walks than castro in like 120 more PA's.

 

Theriot has 23 at bats in the 8th spot, and walked 4 times. Hitting 8th is where he has walked the most frequently.

[bukie]

OBP is way more valuable than SLG

 

Can someone reference something that I can read as to why this is. I've seen the argument made lots of times - but never read anything indepth.

Simple answer: OBP is on a 1.000 scale, SLG is on a 4.000 scale. In actual practice, each point of OBP isn't the equivalent of 4 points of SLG (otherwise a good SLG would be around 1.600), but on average, OBPs hover around .330, while SLGs hover a little over .400 on average.

[chopsx9]

OBP is way more valuable than SLG

 

Can someone reference something that I can read as to why this is. I've seen the argument made lots of times - but never read anything indepth.

 

It comes down to outs being the most important thing, most specifically not making them.

 

 

I get that, but, you can't avoide making them - it is impossible - a team is going to make an out roughly 66% of time. You are obviously going to have stretches where a team is going to do much better than that but its going to even out in the end. That's probably the one certainty in baseball - outside the home half of the 9th and beyond you are going to make 3 outs. In my head - which is why I am looking for some reading material - what you do with the "non-outs" is more important than simply making one or not making one.

[SouthSideRyan]

OBP is way more valuable than SLG

 

Can someone reference something that I can read as to why this is. I've seen the argument made lots of times - but never read anything indepth.

 

It comes down to outs being the most important thing, most specifically not making them.

 

 

I get that, but, you can't avoide making them - it is impossible - a team is going to make an out roughly 66% of time. You are obviously going to have stretches where a team is going to do much better than that but its going to even out in the end. That's probably the one certainty in baseball - outside the home half of the 9th and beyond you are going to make 3 outs. In my head - which is why I am looking for some reading material - what you do with the "non-outs" is more important than simply making one or not making one.

 

But not every team does make outs 66% of the time. Getting on base 35.5% of the time like the Yankees have this year makes a big difference compared to the Astros getting on 29.6% of the time.

[jersey cubs fan]

OBP is way more valuable than SLG

 

Can someone reference something that I can read as to why this is. I've seen the argument made lots of times - but never read anything indepth.

 

It comes down to outs being the most important thing, most specifically not making them.

 

 

I get that, but, you can't avoide making them - it is impossible - a team is going to make an out roughly 66% of time. You are obviously going to have stretches where a team is going to do much better than that but its going to even out in the end. That's probably the one certainty in baseball - outside the home half of the 9th and beyond you are going to make 3 outs. In my head - which is why I am looking for some reading material - what you do with the "non-outs" is more important than simply making one or not making one.

 

Well, you're wrong. Getting as many people to the plate as you can without making outs is what's most important.

[dew1679666265]

I get that, but, you can't avoide making them - it is impossible - a team is going to make an out roughly 66% of time. You are obviously going to have stretches where a team is going to do much better than that but its going to even out in the end. That's probably the one certainty in baseball - outside the home half of the 9th and beyond you are going to make 3 outs. In my head - which is why I am looking for some reading material - what you do with the "non-outs" is more important than simply making one or not making one.

 

You're on the right track with the thinking here. On a macro level, each team only gets 27 outs per game and over the course of a 162 game season they will make that many outs in each game.

 

However, on a micro level, the goal of each hitter should be to do as much in between those outs as possible. A team gets three outs per inning either way, but if they can get guys on base in between those outs, runs are going to score.

[chopsx9]

OBP is way more valuable than SLG

 

Can someone reference something that I can read as to why this is. I've seen the argument made lots of times - but never read anything indepth.

 

It comes down to outs being the most important thing, most specifically not making them.

 

 

I get that, but, you can't avoide making them - it is impossible - a team is going to make an out roughly 66% of time. You are obviously going to have stretches where a team is going to do much better than that but its going to even out in the end. That's probably the one certainty in baseball - outside the home half of the 9th and beyond you are going to make 3 outs. In my head - which is why I am looking for some reading material - what you do with the "non-outs" is more important than simply making one or not making one.

 

Well, you're wrong. Getting as many people to the plate as you can without making outs is what's most important.

 

Thank-you for the incredibly insightful response. I hope you didn't cramp coming up with that. No where have I said I am correct. I have asked for access to information that I assume some people here are familiar with so I can better understand. I have explained my thought process so people might understand where I am coming from and be bettter able to direct me to some reading material. While looking for some knowledge, understanding and elightenment I should at least thank-you for showing me that you occupy the space farthest from.

[javy knows my name]

Well, you're wrong. Getting as many people to the plate as you can without making outs is what's most important.

 

Thank-you for the incredibly insightful response. I hope you didn't cramp coming up with that. No where have I said I am correct. I have asked for access to information that I assume some people here are familiar with so I can better understand. I have explained my thought process so people might understand where I am coming from and be bettter able to direct me to some reading material. While looking for some knowledge, understanding and elightenment I should at least thank-you for showing me that you occupy the space farthest from.

Chop, meet Jersey

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Simple answer: OBP is on a 1.000 scale, SLG is on a 4.000 scale. In actual practice, each point of OBP isn't the equivalent of 4 points of SLG (otherwise a good SLG would be around 1.600), but on average, OBPs hover around .330, while SLGs hover a little over .400 on average.

 

That's not really the reason. That's like saying dollars are worth more than yen because dollars come in denominations of up to $100 and and Yen up to 10,000. The scale has nothing to do with it.

[TruffleShuffle]

Simple answer: OBP is on a 1.000 scale, SLG is on a 4.000 scale. In actual practice, each point of OBP isn't the equivalent of 4 points of SLG (otherwise a good SLG would be around 1.600), but on average, OBPs hover around .330, while SLGs hover a little over .400 on average.

 

That's not really the reason. That's like saying dollars are worth more than yen because dollars come in denominations of up to $100 and and Yen up to 10,000. The scale has nothing to do with it.

 

actually it has a lot to do with it.

[TruffleShuffle]

theriot's hit 8th quite a bit this year too, and he has fewer walks than castro in like 120 more PA's.

 

Theriot has 23 at bats in the 8th spot, and walked 4 times. Hitting 8th is where he has walked the most frequently.

 

yeah i think abuck was thinking of where theriot should have been hitting, instead of lou stupidly plugging him into the leadoff spot every day.

[Tracer Bullet]

Simple answer: OBP is on a 1.000 scale, SLG is on a 4.000 scale. In actual practice, each point of OBP isn't the equivalent of 4 points of SLG (otherwise a good SLG would be around 1.600), but on average, OBPs hover around .330, while SLGs hover a little over .400 on average.

 

That's not really the reason. That's like saying dollars are worth more than yen because dollars come in denominations of up to $100 and and Yen up to 10,000. The scale has nothing to do with it.

 

wait, what?

[davearm2]

Simple answer: OBP is on a 1.000 scale, SLG is on a 4.000 scale. In actual practice, each point of OBP isn't the equivalent of 4 points of SLG (otherwise a good SLG would be around 1.600), but on average, OBPs hover around .330, while SLGs hover a little over .400 on average.

 

That's not really the reason. That's like saying dollars are worth more than yen because dollars come in denominations of up to $100 and and Yen up to 10,000. The scale has nothing to do with it.

If you had $100 and 10,000 yen in your pocket, would you rather have me hand you one more dollar or one more yen?

[Exile on Waveland]

Simple answer: OBP is on a 1.000 scale, SLG is on a 4.000 scale. In actual practice, each point of OBP isn't the equivalent of 4 points of SLG (otherwise a good SLG would be around 1.600), but on average, OBPs hover around .330, while SLGs hover a little over .400 on average.

 

That's not really the reason. That's like saying dollars are worth more than yen because dollars come in denominations of up to $100 and and Yen up to 10,000. The scale has nothing to do with it.

 

actually it has a lot to do with it.

 

The question was not why OBP is undervalued in computing OPS; the question was why OBP is more valuable than SLG. Thus, scale is irrelevant. Thus . . . ugh, Kyle is right.

[Derwood]

If the first batter in an inning hits a HR, but the next three make outs, you've slugged 1.000 for the inning. You have 1 run and made 3 outs.

 

If the first four batters walk in an inning, you've OBP'd 1.000. You have 1 run, and made 0 outs.

[Old Style]

Thsi thread has been successfully derailed.

 

:good:

[SouthSideRyan]

Simple answer: OBP is on a 1.000 scale, SLG is on a 4.000 scale. In actual practice, each point of OBP isn't the equivalent of 4 points of SLG (otherwise a good SLG would be around 1.600), but on average, OBPs hover around .330, while SLGs hover a little over .400 on average.

 

That's not really the reason. That's like saying dollars are worth more than yen because dollars come in denominations of up to $100 and and Yen up to 10,000. The scale has nothing to do with it.

 

And if you were to figure out your net worth by adding your total US$ to your total yen, the yen would be overvalued

[SpongeWorthy]

Isn't the question why you would rather have patience rather than power? The scaling helps to answer why a point of OBP is more valuable than a point of slugging percentage.

[Magnetic Curses]

i'd rather the player have power. patience will come after he murders pitchers consistently and they start pitching around him.

[dew1679666265]

i'd rather the player have power. patience will come after he murders pitchers consistently and they start pitching around him.

 

If you're talking in extremes, I don't disagree. Guys with patience but no power will get pitches grooved to them and, at best, will bloop them around the shallow part of the outfield. It'd take a four players not making an out just to get one run.

 

But, as you said, the power hitters can score more quickly and pitchers will start to try to avoid the zone.

[Sammy Sofa]

i'd rather the player have power. patience will come after he murders pitchers consistently and they start pitching around him.

 

Colvin needs to have this beaten into him then.

[Tracer Bullet]

Simple answer: OBP is on a 1.000 scale, SLG is on a 4.000 scale. In actual practice, each point of OBP isn't the equivalent of 4 points of SLG (otherwise a good SLG would be around 1.600), but on average, OBPs hover around .330, while SLGs hover a little over .400 on average.

 

That's not really the reason. That's like saying dollars are worth more than yen because dollars come in denominations of up to $100 and and Yen up to 10,000. The scale has nothing to do with it.

 

actually it has a lot to do with it.

 

The question was not why OBP is undervalued in computing OPS; the question was why OBP is more valuable than SLG. Thus, scale is irrelevant. Thus . . . ugh, Kyle is right.

 

His last sentence is correct. The comparison to dollars and yen doesn't really work, imo.

[ConstableRabbit]

Simple answer: OBP is on a 1.000 scale, SLG is on a 4.000 scale. In actual practice, each point of OBP isn't the equivalent of 4 points of SLG (otherwise a good SLG would be around 1.600), but on average, OBPs hover around .330, while SLGs hover a little over .400 on average.

 

That's not really the reason. That's like saying dollars are worth more than yen because dollars come in denominations of up to $100 and and Yen up to 10,000. The scale has nothing to do with it.

Sir, I have a business proposition for you