So Is Cashner Officially A Starter Now?

[CubsWin]

Ever since he was drafted, the question about whether Andrew Cashner was a starter or reliever has been debated. Is that debate now finally over? He may still be used/broken in as a reliever, but has Cashner proven that he is capable of being a starter? Is anyone still mad at Hendry and Wilken for drafting a reliever in the 1st round?

[jersey cubs fan]

In the Cubs eyes he's definitely a starter. It remains to be seen where he winds up in the majors, and not just in terms of how he breaks in. He has definitely done everything right, however, in making the transition to starter so far.

[davell]

I think in the Cubs eyes' he is a starter. I think the true test comes when he's allowed to go over 100 pitches, which I'm not sure he's ever done, to this point. And then, if he can do it consistently. Of course, he's getting 85ish or so very consistently at the moment, which is a nice uptick from last year, to begin with. We all bitch and moan about how the Cubs handle some of these youngsters, but I think that they have handled Cashner almost perfectly, to this point honestly.

 

On a side note, were we that pissed that he was who we drafted? I didn't seem to think so, since they announced almost immediately that they had plans to use him as a starter. And even if they didn't, there were people saying that they thought he could have possibly been used on the major league team during the playoff run......

[CubColtPacer]

Cashner is on track to fly up the prospect lists. Everything is going right for him.

 

The number that pops out for Cashner first is the HR percentage. 1 HR given up all of last year and only 1 so far this year. Obviously that's going to increase in the majors, but he has proven that he's stingy about giving up HR.

 

The next that pops out is the H/9 inning. A very good 6.6 last year and an even better 5.8 so far this year. Again something that will rise but it shows that there are very few people getting solid contact on him.

 

The strikeout rate has gone way up so far this year. 6.7 last year to 10.3 this year. This is still uncertain where he ends up but he likely won't be a low strikeout pitcher. I could see him settling in the 7-9 range though.

 

The walk rate has gone down slightly so far this year. 3.8/9 last year, and now 3/9 so far this year. Walks are likely to always be somewhat of a problem for Cashner but as long as he keeps it somewhere in the 3 range he'll be fine.

 

Then you add in that he's averaging 6 IP per start. I'd still like to see him elevate the pitch count a little bit but that can be done in time.

 

Finally the reports of his change getting better to become a 3rd pitch is really encouraging for his future as a starter.

 

I don't think there's any doubt that he's at least the 2nd best Cubs prospect right now behind Castro. And that isn't a slight to the other Cubs top prospects but Cashner has quickly moved up to be one of the better pitching prospects in the game. He's proving his good qualities were not a fluke and is showing positive signs on his negative ones.

 

Does that mean he'll be a starter in the majors? Just like every starting pitching prospect, you never know for sure if they'll succeed in the major leagues. But he's a legitimate great to elite starting prospect now that just happens to have bullpen experience if he fails at being a starter.

[CubColtPacer]

I think in the Cubs eyes' he is a starter. I think the true test comes when he's allowed to go over 100 pitches, which I'm not sure he's ever done, to this point. And then, if he can do it consistently. Of course, he's getting 85ish or so very consistently at the moment, which is a nice uptick from last year, to begin with. We all bitch and moan about how the Cubs handle some of these youngsters, but I think that they have handled Cashner almost perfectly, to this point honestly.

 

On a side note, were we that pissed that he was who we drafted? I didn't seem to think so, since they announced almost immediately that they had plans to use him as a starter. And even if they didn't, there were people saying that they thought he could have possibly been used on the major league team during the playoff run......

 

I don't think Cashner has been above 100. He did have 3 starts in a row though where he had 99, 97, and 98 pitches. The first two he finished out the inning. The last one he was pulled with 2 outs in the inning with a 5 run lead after striking out the previous 2 batters which suggests that in Tennessee, 100 was considered his upper limit.

[Guest]

On a side note, were we that pissed that he was who we drafted? I didn't seem to think so, since they announced almost immediately that they had plans to use him as a starter. And even if they didn't, there were people saying that they thought he could have possibly been used on the major league team during the playoff run......

 

 

Rereading the 2008 draft thread, there were lots of unhappy people. In fact, it's a very amusing read now, considering that's turned out to be a pretty great draft so far.

[Guest]

On a side note, were we that pissed that he was who we drafted? I didn't seem to think so, since they announced almost immediately that they had plans to use him as a starter. And even if they didn't, there were people saying that they thought he could have possibly been used on the major league team during the playoff run......

 

 

Rereading the 2008 draft thread, there were lots of unhappy people. In fact, it's a very amusing read now, considering that's turned out to be a pretty great draft so far.

 

Do I get to pat myself on the back for my comments on Cashner in that thread?

[Guest]

On a side note, were we that pissed that he was who we drafted? I didn't seem to think so, since they announced almost immediately that they had plans to use him as a starter. And even if they didn't, there were people saying that they thought he could have possibly been used on the major league team during the playoff run......

 

 

Rereading the 2008 draft thread, there were lots of unhappy people. In fact, it's a very amusing read now, considering that's turned out to be a pretty great draft so far.

 

Do I get to pat myself on the back for my comments on Cashner in that thread?

 

I'm just personally glad I didn't say anything that looks really dumb.

 

 

Also, some classic badnews ranting in that draft thread once you get past the Flaherty pick.

[SouthSideRyan]

I said we drafted Jose Ceda. And I HATED Jose Ceda.

[CubsWin]

On a side note, were we that pissed that he was who we drafted? I didn't seem to think so, since they announced almost immediately that they had plans to use him as a starter. And even if they didn't, there were people saying that they thought he could have possibly been used on the major league team during the playoff run......

 

 

Rereading the 2008 draft thread, there were lots of unhappy people. In fact, it's a very amusing read now, considering that's turned out to be a pretty great draft so far.

I was re-reading that thread, too. It's hilarious. Cubs fans don't have knee jerk negative reactions at all. No, never, never.

[jersey cubs fan]

On a side note, were we that pissed that he was who we drafted? I didn't seem to think so, since they announced almost immediately that they had plans to use him as a starter. And even if they didn't, there were people saying that they thought he could have possibly been used on the major league team during the playoff run......

 

 

Rereading the 2008 draft thread, there were lots of unhappy people. In fact, it's a very amusing read now, considering that's turned out to be a pretty great draft so far.

I was re-reading that thread, too. It's hilarious. Cubs fans don't have knee jerk negative reactions at all. No, never, never.

 

Cubs fans never overhype prospects based on short-term minor league success either.

[rawaction]

The Cubs have a strict 100 pitch maximum for all their minor leaguers. Have had for a while, so the first time Cashner throws over 100 pitches will be in a major league uniform.

[jersey cubs fan]

The Cubs have a strict 100 pitch maximum for all their minor leaguers. Have had for a while, so the first time Cashner throws over 100 pitches will be in a major league uniform.

 

I did not know that.

[CubsWin]

On a side note, were we that pissed that he was who we drafted? I didn't seem to think so, since they announced almost immediately that they had plans to use him as a starter. And even if they didn't, there were people saying that they thought he could have possibly been used on the major league team during the playoff run......

 

 

Rereading the 2008 draft thread, there were lots of unhappy people. In fact, it's a very amusing read now, considering that's turned out to be a pretty great draft so far.

I was re-reading that thread, too. It's hilarious. Cubs fans don't have knee jerk negative reactions at all. No, never, never.

 

Cubs fans never overhype prospects based on short-term minor league success either.

Not during my lifetime. Not once. Ever.

[UMFan83]

It's not just Cubs fans that rip every draft pick their team has and overreacts to every bit of success they have as well.

 

I just remember thinking Casher, with luck, in the short term could be our 7th inning guy on the 2008 Cubs. Instead we had Jeff Samardzija. Either way, I didn't have much long term hope for him other than decent bullpen arm.

 

Props to the Cubs. I don't participate in enough discussions around here. Does the 2008 draft's early returns suggest that Wilken might not be a bust?

[Guest]

The Cubs have a strict 100 pitch maximum for all their minor leaguers. Have had for a while, so the first time Cashner throws over 100 pitches will be in a major league uniform.

 

I believe that's not true for journeymen at AAA. I've seen guys like Mathes go over in years past.

[CubColtPacer]

It's not just Cubs fans that rip every draft pick their team has and overreacts to every bit of success they have as well.

 

I just remember thinking Casher, with luck, in the short term could be our 7th inning guy on the 2008 Cubs. Instead we had Jeff Samardzija. Either way, I didn't have much long term hope for him other than decent bullpen arm.

 

Props to the Cubs. I don't participate in enough discussions around here. Does the 2008 draft's early returns suggest that Wilken might not be a bust?

 

The 2008 draft is where a lot of the Cubs current farm strength comes from (along with the international signings). Cashner, Jay Jackson, Chris Carpenter, and Casey Coleman all came from that draft. All are in AA or higher now and have all shown at least pretty long periods of strong pitching.

 

Logan Watkins has gotten high reviews from some of the scouting organizations. I'm not that high on him but he's only 20 and in Peoria.

 

Flaherty and Shafer also have shown flashes. Harrison from that draft was already traded in Grabow/Gorzelanny deal. And there are some other players who could turn out to be bench players or potential relievers from that draft.

 

The other drafts Wilken has done haven't been quite so good. 2006 turned out to be mostly a wasted draft. Samardzija and no 2nd-4th round picks really hurt that. Colvin so far has of course contributed more than at times he was expected to, and him and Blake Parker could make that draft not a total loss.

 

2007 Vitters is still progressing. They traded Donaldson in the Harden deal. Barney is a future backup SS. Russell is now pitching for the Cubs. Guyer could still do something. This is a fairly underwhelming class overall but decent if you can get value out of Vitters and they already got value out of Donaldson.

 

2009 has so little information. But it's off to a good start with Brett Jackson doing so well. There are also some intriguing names in later rounds. It isn't off to the rousing start that 2008 was, but few drafts ever are.

 

Wilken is definitely not a bust though. The international signings are definitely boosting this system and will continue to do so, but the Cubs are getting good support from the amateur draft as well. A big key is that the Cubs haven't completely whiffed on any of their first round picks so far which is easy to do. That sort of talent makes the whole rest of your draft look a whole lot better.

[Outshined_One]

One thing I've noticed from Wilken's drafts is that the Cubs' system has a lot of relief pitchers who could contribute to major league bullpens. Here's a list of some of the relievers the Cubs have drafted since 2006 who could fit that bill:

 

2006: Jeff Samardzija (yeah, yeah, I know, I know), Chris Huseby, Blake Parker, Jeremy Papelbon, Jordan Latham

2007: Casey Lambert, James Russell, Dustin Sasser, Craig Muschko, Luke Sommer

2008: Aaron Shafer, James Leverton, Jeff Beliveau, David Cales

 

It's hard to judge 2009's draft since a bunch of those draftees are currently getting starter workloads or are in EXST.

 

Predicting their future is difficult, but all of those guys have performed well in the minors and, at the very least, have ceilings of effective middle relievers.

[Guest]

One thing I've noticed from Wilken's drafts is that the Cubs' system has a lot of relief pitchers who could contribute to major league bullpens. Here's a list of some of the relievers in the Cubs' system who've been drafted since 2006 who could fit that bill:

 

2006: Jeff Samardzija (yeah, yeah, I know, I know), Chris Huseby, Blake Parker, Jeremy Papelbon, Jordan Latham

2007: Casey Lambert, James Russell, Dustin Sasser, Craig Muschko, Luke Sommer

2008: Aaron Shafer, James Leverton, Jeff Beliveau, David Cales

 

It's hard to judge 2009's draft since a bunch of those draftees are currently getting starter workloads or are in EXST.

 

Predicting their future is difficult, but all of those guys have performed well in the minors and, at the very least, have ceilings of effective middle relievers.

 

 

I have to assume that's common for most organizations, as much as I love guys like Parker and Cales.

[Outshined_One]

One thing I've noticed from Wilken's drafts is that the Cubs' system has a lot of relief pitchers who could contribute to major league bullpens. Here's a list of some of the relievers in the Cubs' system who've been drafted since 2006 who could fit that bill:

 

2006: Jeff Samardzija (yeah, yeah, I know, I know), Chris Huseby, Blake Parker, Jeremy Papelbon, Jordan Latham

2007: Casey Lambert, James Russell, Dustin Sasser, Craig Muschko, Luke Sommer

2008: Aaron Shafer, James Leverton, Jeff Beliveau, David Cales

 

It's hard to judge 2009's draft since a bunch of those draftees are currently getting starter workloads or are in EXST.

 

Predicting their future is difficult, but all of those guys have performed well in the minors and, at the very least, have ceilings of effective middle relievers.

 

 

I have to assume that's common for most organizations, as much as I love guys like Parker and Cales.

 

I'm unsure of that. In years past, namely when the farm system was bereft, it seemed like even the relief pitchers sucked. Every organization has filler arms and random guys they can call up to get shelled in blowouts. However, since 2006, it feels like the Cubs have drafted a decent number of guys who could be quality relief pitchers some day.

 

It's an assertion that requires more research, I'll grant you that. However, the relief pitchers in this system seem a lot better than they did even 4 years ago.

[Rob]

Guilty as charged on the Cashner draft-day hate. But I was operating under the assumption the Cubs wouldn't turn him into a starter... Hell, I'm still surprised at how well they're handling him.

[craig]

In the Cubs eyes he's definitely a starter. It remains to be seen where he winds up in the majors, and not just in terms of how he breaks in. He has definitely done everything right, however, in making the transition to starter so far.

 

http://www.northsidebaseball.com/bridge/index.php?f=3&t=56603&rb_v=viewtopic

 

Heh, the link is to the discussion we had starting in January. Kind of fun to go back and reread some of that stuff. You had "reliever written all over him". I argued that there was a good chance that he'd not end up making it as a starter (maybe he wouldn't have the stamina; maybe his control wouldn't be good enough; maybe his fastball was too straight and invariable; maybe his change would never become useful....), but thought they should at least let him try, or that it was possible that he would work out as a starter.

 

I don't think either of us imagined he'd do as well as he has thus far this season. We'll see how long it lasts.

 

But it sure has been a nice story thus far.

[toonsterwu]

guilty as charged in doubting him ... but i'm very glad i'm wrong.

 

of course, the story isn't done yet, so who knows what happens. so far so good.

[imb]

pretty sure i was down with the pick from day one, so suck it losers

[CubsWin]

Cashner threw 95 pitches over 7 innings on Saturday giving up just two hits, no runs, no walks while striking out 7. He's now pitched 19 innings at AAA, giving up just 2 runs, both earned. Opponents are hitting .197 against him. In those 19 IP, he's allowed 13 hits and 2 walks against 14 Ks. At Iowa, he's 3-0 with a 0.95 ERA. Adding in his time at AA, he's 6-1 on the year with a 2.13 ERA over 9 starts (1 CG). He's struckout 56 in 55 IP allowing just 35 hits and 15 walks.

 

Is that good enough to be considered a starter yet? I'm asking, not implying.