Matt Holliday Signs with Cards (7yrs, $120 Million)

[Guest]

For 2010, I think the Cubs have a higher upside with their roster, but also have more question marks. Ignoring injuries for a minute, I think the distribution of potential outcomes for the team is much wider than that of St Louis. When factoring injuries (and injury probabilities) into the equation, I think the Cubs are more likely to have one of their key players injured. First off, they rely on more people than StL, so they have more potential targets that are hard to replace internally. But they also have a number of key players who enter with big health concerns -

 

Aramis: shoulder

Soriano: knee

Soto: various

Zambrano: various

Lilly: surgery

 

I think it's fair to expect at least a couple of these guys to struggle with their injuries in 2010 -- and there's not a whole lot on the bench to replace these guys.

 

The Cards have a smaller core of higher quality players. Carp and Wainwright both have injury concerns (big, huge red flags for carp). I think they're less likely to have a major injury impact them. But if one of their four key guys goes down for long, they're pretty hosed.

 

It'll be a fun season to see how it plays out.

[dew1679666265]

I'd love to see the Cubs bring in Russell Branyan as a bench player. He'd be really nice depth behind Lee and Aramis.

[Guest]

I'd love to see the Cubs bring in Russell Branyan as a bench player. He'd be really nice depth behind Lee and Aramis.

100% behind this move. It's why I'd have preferred keeping Fox instead of spending him on another right-handed middle reliever.

[fromthestretch]

I'd love to see the Cubs bring in Russell Branyan as a bench player. He'd be really nice depth behind Lee and Aramis.

 

He could also play a corner outfield spot every now and then. I wouldn't put him out there daily, but it's one way to get him a few extra at bats.

[dew1679666265]

I'd love to see the Cubs bring in Russell Branyan as a bench player. He'd be really nice depth behind Lee and Aramis.

100% behind this move. It's why I'd have preferred keeping Fox instead of spending him on another right-handed middle reliever.

 

Branyan would be a pretty significant upgrade over Fox, though. He's a little better defensively, I think, and much better offensively. With the depth/injury issues on this team we could use some guys like Branyan who we know can perform at a high level (for a bench player) instead of someone who has yet to show he can consistently hit at the major league level.

[dew1679666265]

I'd love to see the Cubs bring in Russell Branyan as a bench player. He'd be really nice depth behind Lee and Aramis.

 

He could also play a corner outfield spot every now and then. I wouldn't put him out there daily, but it's one way to get him a few extra at bats.

 

Yeah, he's worse defensively in the outfield, I believe, which is why I didn't mention those spots. Ideally whoever we bring in to platoon with Kosuke would be the guy to spell Soriano at times as well, but Branyan's got too good a bat to leave him on the bench for lengthy periods of time.

[Ricky Vaughn]

Let's not forget that Dempster is likely to break his toe jumping over the dugout railing again. The Cubs were probably 2nd to the Mets for the "most missed time to key players" during 2009.

 

The Cards weren't exactly blessed in this department.

 

Two of their top three pitchers ended up spending time on the DL (in Lohse's case, multiple times) due to injuries sustained while batting.

 

Their starting center fielder spent time on the DL after almost taking his own head off in the field.

 

Their starting 3rd baseman didn't appear in a game until September 2nd (at which point they already had a double-digit lead), and only had 29 at-bats.

 

They had a reigning all-star, preceived protection for Albert Pujols, spend time on the DL with a pulled hammy.

 

Their big offseason acquisition made multiple trips to the DL, because he was crazy.

 

The person who filled in for said acquisition also spent time on the DL with a pulled hammy.

 

They made an in-season trade for someone they thought would boost their offense (and based on opinion here at the time, someone many felt the Cubs should get) only to see him tear a ligament in his wrist three days later.

 

Some of those don't seem like big losses, because some of those players regressed even when they were healthy, and because other people stepped up. But, if you looked at them preseason, compared them to their 2008 team, and said that they'll lose their #2, #3, and #4 RBI men to significant time, as well as losing their wins leader for much of the season and a former Cy Young for part of it as well, you would hardly say that they caught a break on the injury front as compared to the Cubs.

[Soul]

I'd love to see the Cubs bring in Russell Branyan as a bench player. He'd be really nice depth behind Lee and Aramis.

100% behind this move. It's why I'd have preferred keeping Fox instead of spending him on another right-handed middle reliever.

 

Heck yes. I didn't know Branyan was available.

[Guest]

I'd love to see the Cubs bring in Russell Branyan as a bench player. He'd be really nice depth behind Lee and Aramis.

100% behind this move. It's why I'd have preferred keeping Fox instead of spending him on another right-handed middle reliever.

 

Branyan would be a pretty significant upgrade over Fox, though. He's a little better defensively, I think, and much better offensively. With the depth/injury issues on this team we could use some guys like Branyan who we know can perform at a high level (for a bench player) instead of someone who has yet to show he can consistently hit at the major league level.

Not saying I'd prefer Fox. Just saying that I was hoping they'd keep him around for some bench strength in a needed area.

[Sever82]

Let's not forget that Dempster is likely to break his toe jumping over the dugout railing again. The Cubs were probably 2nd to the Mets for the "most missed time to key players" during 2009.

 

 

Some of those don't seem like big losses, because some of those players regressed even when they were healthy, and because other people stepped up. But, if you looked at them preseason, compared them to their 2008 team, and said that they'll lose their #2, #3, and #4 RBI men to significant time, as well as losing their wins leader for much of the season and a former Cy Young for part of it as well, you would hardly say that they caught a break on the injury front as compared to the Cubs.

 

Thats the key though because the players they had go down weren't exactly big time producers. Lohse could easily be produced and glaus hasn't been much since he tested positive for PEDs if i remember. The cubs injuries were more costly because they lost players like Ramirez, Zambrano, Soto, Lilly, etc and not to mention Soriano playing on a bum knee for most of the season. It would've been as if the cards lost Carpenter, Pujols and Molina for extended period of time. Not to say Ramirez is as good as pujols or zambrano is as good as carpenter but both mean as much to their teams as those players do.

[UMFan83]

If anyone is in the mood for Cardinal hating, MLBTV is showing Game 2 of the NLDS last year and its almost the 9th inning. In about 5 minutes you'll be able to relive Holliday's clutch fielding and the Cardinals pulling a Cubs in the playoffs.

 

Edit: Everytime I have a convo with a Cardinals fan about that play, it goes like this:

 

"Haha, Matt Holiday blew that entire series with that error he made."

 

Then they will surely point out how there was no one on base and 2 outs when the error happened and Franklin still had the blow the rest of the game and the Cardinals still had to lose game 3, etc.

 

"Good point, now will you finally shut up about Bartman?"

[jersey cubs fan]

If anyone is in the mood for Cardinal hating, MLBTV is showing Game 2 of the NLDS last year and its almost the 9th inning. In about 5 minutes you'll be able to relive Holliday's clutch fielding and the Cardinals pulling a Cubs in the playoffs.

 

I just giggled

[TruffleShuffle]

Two of their top three pitchers ended up spending time on the DL (in Lohse's case, multiple times) due to injuries sustained while batting.

 

carpenter always gets hurt and it was somewhat of a miracle that he pitched nearly 200 innings at a very high level after pitching only 21 innings in the previous two years.

 

Their starting center fielder spent time on the DL after almost taking his own head off in the field.

 

their starting center fielder sucked and they were better off with colby rasmus playing.

 

Their starting 3rd baseman didn't appear in a game until September 2nd (at which point they already had a double-digit lead), and only had 29 at-bats.

 

this was a year after he played over 150 games. he's a 34 year old guy who was already injury-prone in his 20s when he was pumping his body full of steroids. not exactly shocking that someone like this would break down.

 

They had a reigning all-star, preceived protection for Albert Pujols, spend time on the DL with a pulled hammy.

 

like 2 weeks.

 

Their big offseason acquisition made multiple trips to the DL, because he was crazy.

 

and the guy who replaced him played better than he did, so what's the big deal? khalil greene sucks; they shouldn't have traded for him in the first place.

[17 Seconds]

don't forget that in may mitchell boggs missed like 2 games due to illness

[Keener98]

Umm are you kidding me?

 

Cardinals paying Holliday till hes 49 [expletive] years old! HAHAHAHAHAhAha

 

As part of his new seven year, $120MM contract, Matt Holliday will be collecting paychecks from the Cardinals through 2029 according to the AP (via SI.com). As you know, the contract calls for a $17MM annual salary through 2016 with an option for 2017, however $2MM is deferred without interest each season. Depending on whether or not the option is picked up/vests, Holliday will be paid either $1.4MM or $1.6MM on July 15th every year from 2020 to 2029.

 

Just for some perspective, Holliday will be 49 years old on July 15th, 2029.

 

[UMFan83]

Umm are you kidding me?

 

Cardinals paying Holliday till hes 49 [expletive] years old! HAHAHAHAHAhAha

 

As part of his new seven year, $120MM contract, Matt Holliday will be collecting paychecks from the Cardinals through 2029 according to the AP (via SI.com). As you know, the contract calls for a $17MM annual salary through 2016 with an option for 2017, however $2MM is deferred without interest each season. Depending on whether or not the option is picked up/vests, Holliday will be paid either $1.4MM or $1.6MM on July 15th every year from 2020 to 2029.

 

Just for some perspective, Holliday will be 49 years old on July 15th, 2029.

 

 

Sounds like they are doing anything possible to fit his and Pujols' contracts on the team.

[indifferent]

Umm are you kidding me?

 

Cardinals paying Holliday till hes 49 [expletive] years old! HAHAHAHAHAhAha

 

As part of his new seven year, $120MM contract, Matt Holliday will be collecting paychecks from the Cardinals through 2029 according to the AP (via SI.com). As you know, the contract calls for a $17MM annual salary through 2016 with an option for 2017, however $2MM is deferred without interest each season. Depending on whether or not the option is picked up/vests, Holliday will be paid either $1.4MM or $1.6MM on July 15th every year from 2020 to 2029.

 

Just for some perspective, Holliday will be 49 years old on July 15th, 2029.

 

 

Sounds like they are doing anything possible to fit his and Pujols' contracts on the team.

 

All that means it the Cards got an even better deal than first reported, as well as more payroll flexibility.

[UMFan83]

Umm are you kidding me?

 

Cardinals paying Holliday till hes 49 [expletive] years old! HAHAHAHAHAhAha

 

As part of his new seven year, $120MM contract, Matt Holliday will be collecting paychecks from the Cardinals through 2029 according to the AP (via SI.com). As you know, the contract calls for a $17MM annual salary through 2016 with an option for 2017, however $2MM is deferred without interest each season. Depending on whether or not the option is picked up/vests, Holliday will be paid either $1.4MM or $1.6MM on July 15th every year from 2020 to 2029.

 

Just for some perspective, Holliday will be 49 years old on July 15th, 2029.

 

 

Sounds like they are doing anything possible to fit his and Pujols' contracts on the team.

 

All that means it the Cards got an even better deal than first reported, as well as more payroll flexibility.

 

Which they can use to, among other things, resign Pujols

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The deferred money makes it a better deal for the Cards, but it doesn't make much of a difference practically. 2 million a year isn't going to do much to change the decision making of a franchise with their payroll. Maybe it allows them to have a better utility infielder or something down the line, but they weren't dumb enough to tell Albert Pujols to buzz off because we're X short of our payroll threshold and he wants X+2 million.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

The deferred payments make the present value of the deal worth about 16m a year. Boras and Holiday wanted a reported annual payment above Bay's deal.

[indifferent]

The deferred money makes it a better deal for the Cards, but it doesn't make much of a difference practically. 2 million a year isn't going to do much to change the decision making of a franchise with their payroll. Maybe it allows them to have a better utility infielder or something down the line, but they aren't dumb enough to tell Albert Pujols to buzz off because we're X short of our payroll threshold and he wants X+2 million.

 

So you wouldn't have signed Holliday due to the payroll % spent on him and hopefully Pujols? Sure there's risk involved in committing those dollars for the long term, but I think Holliday is a risk worth taking. The Cards could just fill in with marginal players as they've been doing in years they didn't make the playoffs. They did pretty well in the years where they invested in the right players like Pujols, Edmonds, and Rolen. IMO, the worst moves the Cards have made this decade have been the Mulder/Haren trade, the Lohse extension, and possibly the Carp extension (in terms of playing time missed). As far as long term FA participation, I'm not optimistic about production from our prospects in the immediate future, so that could hurt, but I have faith in the core.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The deferred money makes it a better deal for the Cards, but it doesn't make much of a difference practically. 2 million a year isn't going to do much to change the decision making of a franchise with their payroll. Maybe it allows them to have a better utility infielder or something down the line, but they aren't dumb enough to tell Albert Pujols to buzz off because we're X short of our payroll threshold and he wants X+2 million.

 

So you wouldn't have signed Holliday due to the payroll % spent on him and hopefully Pujols? Sure there's risk involved in committing those dollars for the long term, but I think Holliday is a risk worth taking. The Cards could just fill in with marginal players as they've been doing in years they didn't make the playoffs. They did pretty well in the years where they invested in the right players like Pujols, Edmonds, and Rolen. IMO, the worst moves the Cards have made this decade have been the Mulder/Haren trade, the Lohse extension, and possibly the Carp extension (in terms of playing time missed). As far as long term FA participation, I'm not optimistic about production from our prospects in the immediate future, so that could hurt, but I have faith in the core.

 

It's a nice deal for the Cardinals. Holliday's proven his worth, has no glaring red flags about his ability to live up to the contract, and should be well worth the money spent on him. My point in a previous post in the thread(which was discussed at length at GRB if memory serves), is that with as star heavy as the team already is, they might have been better served distributing Holliday's money and value across more than one player if they could. Maybe that wasn't possible this season(even with trade possibilities), and I don't mean to say that there's a right and wrong answer. But the reality they have now is a top heavy roster where they aren't getting much in the way of bang for the buck(Wainwright and Lohse countering each other essentially) save Rasmus. They get hit with injury or ineffectiveness to one or more of those stars, they won't have the financial resources to compensate, nor does it look like they have the resources on the farm to compensate. It's a similar gamble that the Cubs took before 2009, and the lack of depth(relative to 2008) came back to haunt them,among other things.

[BCVM22]

Holliday switches from no. 15 to no. 7, for those who care.

[Guest]

Holliday switches from no. 15 to no. 7, for those who care.

Seven year contract? He got lucky? hmm

[mul21]

Holliday switches from no. 15 to no. 7, for those who care.

Seven year contract? He got lucky? hmm

 

More cardinal fan butt licking. Said something in the presser about not wanting to wear 15 long term because of how respected Edmonds was. I almost puked on my desk. Boras is really good at feeding his clients crap to say. There were a couple others he dropped in as well that I don't remember right now