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Re: Sosa tested positive in 2003 per NY Times

SouthSideRyan

By SouthSideRyan,
in Chicago Cubs Talk

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jersey cubs fan GOAT

jersey cubs fan

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
The record books will never be changed, but I have to think that everyone that is a legitimate baseball fan at this point has to regard the home run record as 61 again at this point, right?

 

Are you kidding me? Everyone that is a legitimate baseball fan? This is more dumb than the "true Cubs fan" nonsense you hear about those who really deserve the honor of being called a fan.

 

What the hell is a legitimate baseball fan?

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jersey cubs fan GOAT

jersey cubs fan

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
I think he means a fan of legitimate baseball, not necessarily a legitimate fan of baseball.

 

(technically, the former should be "legitimate-baseball fan"

 

It's still a ridiculous distinction. Baseball is baseball. MLB has always changed the balance of power between pitching and hitting in an effort to increase fan interest in the game, and that included allowing players to take greenies, and allowing them to take steroids. Because they absolutely did allow them to take steroids, just like the NFL and NBA. They can't tell the public they allow it, but I knew a hell of a lot about steroids when I was in freaking junior high in the late 80's, so you can't tell me the powers that be of a huge business like baseball didn't know what was out there. Walter Payton beat the rushing record during a steroid era in football, and then Emmitt Smith broke it during a more sophisticated steroid era. But football was still football. There's no such thing as legitimate and illegitimate baseball.

Hairyducked Idiot All-Star

Hairyducked Idiot

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Correct. 61 and 755 are still the records as far as I'm concerned.

 

I really don't know how Aaron gets a pass. Admitted PED use, suspicious career length at a time when we know steroids were starting to creep in.

jersey cubs fan GOAT

jersey cubs fan

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Correct. 61 and 755 are still the records as far as I'm concerned.

 

I really don't know how Aaron gets a pass. Admitted PED use, suspicious career length at a time when we know steroids were starting to creep in.

 

But that's when men was men and women was women and the poetry flowed 60 feet 6 inches at a time.

Banedon GOAT

Banedon

Community Moderator
Posted
Posted
The record books will never be changed, but I have to think that everyone that is a legitimate baseball fan at this point has to regard the home run record as 61 again at this point, right?

 

Are you kidding me? Everyone that is a legitimate baseball fan? This is more dumb than the "true Cubs fan" nonsense you hear about those who really deserve the honor of being called a fan.

 

What the hell is a legitimate baseball fan?

 

I just meant someone that follows the game more than casually. That can name a few of the major "hallowed" records. I wasn't trying to be all high and mighty about it. Just that there are people that might say they're a Cub fan, and might have a hat and/or t-shirt, and may have even been to Wrigley, that couldn't name more than 3 players that aren't on the Cubs, and have no idea who Roger Maris is.

 

Take out the word "legitimate" if that's a sticking point. It's not important to what I was trying to say.

jersey cubs fan GOAT

jersey cubs fan

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
The record books will never be changed, but I have to think that everyone that is a legitimate baseball fan at this point has to regard the home run record as 61 again at this point, right?

 

Are you kidding me? Everyone that is a legitimate baseball fan? This is more dumb than the "true Cubs fan" nonsense you hear about those who really deserve the honor of being called a fan.

 

What the hell is a legitimate baseball fan?

 

I just meant someone that follows the game more than casually. That can name a few of the major "hallowed" records. I wasn't trying to be all high and mighty about it. Just that there are people that might say they're a Cub fan, and might have a hat and/or t-shirt, and may have even been to Wrigley, that couldn't name more than 3 players that aren't on the Cubs, and have no idea who Roger Maris is.

 

Take out the word "legitimate" if that's a sticking point. It's not important to what I was trying to say.

 

That's still an absurd assumption to make. You already see people on this site who obviously can name more than 3 players that aren't Cubs that don't agree with you. Why the hell would anybody think you have to think 61 is the only one that counts?

jersey cubs fan GOAT

jersey cubs fan

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
I'm not a baseball fan.

 

It was a question, not a statement. Your answer is clearly "no".

 

It certainly didn't look like a question. "I have to think that everyone" sounds like a strong declaration.

Sammy Sofa GOAT

Sammy Sofa

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Because Roger Maris maybe didn't cheat.

 

It bugs me when I hear on sports shows people saying the 2003 list needs to be releeased so it can "end speculation," not just in terms of who is on the list but also to definitively close the door on the "Steroid Era." It's a frustratingly absurd idea to think that four decades of PED use can be dropped on the back of 103 players (and the handful of others caughter after the fact) as if it was relegated to them and not the at least hundreds of other players that also used them.

Banedon GOAT

Banedon

Community Moderator
Posted
Posted
I'm not a baseball fan.

 

It was a question, not a statement. Your answer is clearly "no".

 

It certainly didn't look like a question. "I have to think that everyone" sounds like a strong declaration.

 

Fine, I phrased my question poorly then. My point was that I think there will be a lot of people that will think that way. Maybe there won't be as many as I thought. 61 is the number in my mind. Clearly it's not in SSR's. Ok then...

 

Lets not parse the verbiage.

Tracer Bullet Knoxville Smokies

Tracer Bullet

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
a PED is a PED is a PED. I'm not going to give some guys a pass because their's wasn't as effective.

 

And that's your call. I don't view all PED's the same and you do.

 

Part of my rationale as it relates to greenies is the way they were introduced to the game. I remember an old article I read, which I found: http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/sports/epaper/2006/04/02/PBP_AMPHET_0402.html.

 

Who knows how accurate all that information is, but if team trainers were handing guys greenies between double-headers that doesn't seem as underhanded as having your personal trainer or buddy put a needle in your ass in the bathroom.

 

I'm not sure I can articulate all the reasons I view them differently. But not all PEDs are equal, imo.

Tracer Bullet Knoxville Smokies

Tracer Bullet

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
GR, you don't think team trainers knew guys were injecting? Did they have to personally stick the needle in you in order to make it acceptable?

 

If team trainers injected steroids into many players in the clubhouse (on the training table, at the player's locker, whatever) and no one was trying to hide it at all, I'd probably have less of an issue with roids, HGH, etc, than I do now.

 

Part of it is effectiveness, part of it is how open people were with greenies v steroids and HGH (esp the more heavy duty stuff). They just have a much different feel for me. You don't have to agree with me, I don't care. That's just how it is for me.

Wheelimus First Round Pick

Wheelimus

Verified Member
Posted
Posted
Because Roger Maris maybe didn't cheat.

 

It bugs me when I hear on sports shows people saying the 2003 list needs to be releeased so it can "end speculation," not just in terms of who is on the list but also to definitively close the door on the "Steroid Era." It's a frustratingly absurd idea to think that four decades of PED use can be dropped on the back of 103 players (and the handful of others caughter after the fact) as if it was relegated to them and not the at least hundreds of other players that also used them.

 

What bothers me is that, even if the list ever comes out, we won't know what players were juicing during the "Steroid Era". We'll just know who the 103 stupidest players in the game were. Remember this was a test that they were given plenty of notice of, whose results were to be used to determine future policy. It was literally a call to "PLEASE GET OFF THE JUICE JUST THIS ONE DAMN TIME SO THIS ISSUE GOES AWAY." They might as well have had a trash can to discard needles on your way in.

 

Any ballplayer with a lick of sense would have tried their damnedest to time their cycle to test clean then or, gasp, maybe go off the sauce for a few months to be safe. Because even back in 2003 I was thinking "that list will someday come out."

 

This doesn't confirm that Sammy Sosa did steroids, any of us with a brain and eyes knew that. It just confirms that he was freaking stupid. The guys whose IQ's might leave them employable even if baseball went away didn't test positive. At least not **that** time.

mjohnson71 ACL Cubs

mjohnson71

Verified Member
Posted
Posted

The whole of baseball is so tainted that either everyone from the 'roids era gets in: or nobody gets in.

 

Anyone that says that Sammy should be in the HOF while Clemens, Bonds or McGwire shouldn't is a complete homer.

Soul MVP

Soul

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
The whole of baseball is so tainted that either everyone from the 'roids era gets in: or nobody gets in.

 

Anyone that says that Sammy should be in the HOF while Clemens, Bonds or McGwire shouldn't is a complete homer.

 

Sammy won't get in. At least, not unless the mood changes. There's no way he racks up tons of votes when McGwire can't get more than a few.

vance_the_cubs_fan Cooperstown

vance_the_cubs_fan

Community Moderator
Posted
Posted

It's always going to be a slippery slope between "illegal" performance enhancing and legal means of enhancing one's genetic make-up.

 

Are steroids illegal because they enhance performance beyond normal means or are they illegal because they are dangerous?

 

If it's the first, then why are they cheating but getting lasic eye surgery is not?

 

If it's the latter, would they become acceptable if the medical community finds a safe way to administer that reduces the medical risks?

sneakypower South Bend Cubs

sneakypower

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
I guess nobody is free from suspicion now, but I think Frank Thomas was completely legit. He was a monster his entire career.

thats true, and so was Manny Ramir...

 

wait that doesnt work

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