Re: Sosa tested positive in 2003 per NY Times

[OleMissCub]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/20/opinion/20chafets.html?_r=1

 

Since the dawn of baseball, players have used whatever substances they believed would help them perform better, heal faster or relax during a long and stressful season. As far back as 1889, the pitcher Pud Galvin ingested monkey testosterone. During Prohibition, Grover Cleveland Alexander, also a pitcher, calmed his nerves with federally banned alcohol, and no less an expert than Bill Veeck, who owned several major-league teams, said that Alexander was a better pitcher drunk than sober.

 

In 1961, during his home run race with Roger Maris, Mickey Mantle developed a sudden abscess that kept him on the bench. It came from an infected needle used by Max Jacobson, a quack who injected Mantle with a home-brew containing steroids and speed. In his autobiography, Hank Aaron admitted once taking an amphetamine tablet during a game. The Pirates’ John Milner testified at a drug dealer’s trial that his teammate, Willie Mays, kept “red juice,” a liquid form of speed, in his locker. (Mays denied it.) After he retired, Sandy Koufax admitted the he was often “half high” on the mound from the drugs he took for his ailing left arm.

 

Purists say that steroids alter the game. But since the Hall opened its doors, baseball has never stopped changing. Batters now wear body padding and helmets. The pitcher’s mound has risen and fallen. Bats have more pop. Night games affect visibility. Players stay in shape in the off-season. Expansion has altered the game’s geography. And its demography has changed beyond recognition. Babe Ruth never faced a black pitcher. As Chris Rock put it, Ruth’s record consisted of “714 affirmative-action home runs.” This doesn’t diminish Ruth’s accomplishment, but it puts it into context.

[Roast]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/20/opinion/20chafets.html?_r=1

 

Since the dawn of baseball, players have used whatever substances they believed would help them perform better, heal faster or relax during a long and stressful season. As far back as 1889, the pitcher Pud Galvin ingested monkey testosterone. During Prohibition, Grover Cleveland Alexander, also a pitcher, calmed his nerves with federally banned alcohol, and no less an expert than Bill Veeck, who owned several major-league teams, said that Alexander was a better pitcher drunk than sober.

 

In 1961, during his home run race with Roger Maris, Mickey Mantle developed a sudden abscess that kept him on the bench. It came from an infected needle used by Max Jacobson, a quack who injected Mantle with a home-brew containing steroids and speed. In his autobiography, Hank Aaron admitted once taking an amphetamine tablet during a game. The Pirates’ John Milner testified at a drug dealer’s trial that his teammate, Willie Mays, kept “red juice,” a liquid form of speed, in his locker. (Mays denied it.) After he retired, Sandy Koufax admitted the he was often “half high” on the mound from the drugs he took for his ailing left arm.

 

Purists say that steroids alter the game. But since the Hall opened its doors, baseball has never stopped changing. Batters now wear body padding and helmets. The pitcher’s mound has risen and fallen. Bats have more pop. Night games affect visibility. Players stay in shape in the off-season. Expansion has altered the game’s geography. And its demography has changed beyond recognition. Babe Ruth never faced a black pitcher. As Chris Rock put it, Ruth’s record consisted of “714 affirmative-action home runs.” This doesn’t diminish Ruth’s accomplishment, but it puts it into context.

 

 

Awesome. Just..Awesome. Sucks that I just posted an article on the front page that says almost exactly this. Only probably not as eloquently.

 

*p.s. everyone should go read the front page and stuff /plug*

[Tracer Bullet]

Shut it, Ryno.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/news/story?id=4281359

[SouthSideRyan]

"We have some other players coming up like [Rafael] Palmeiro coming up soon, and it'll be up to the sportswriters to speak loud and clear about that. I don't see any of those guys getting in."

 

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Banedon]

"We have some other players coming up like [Rafael] Palmeiro coming up soon, and it'll be up to the sportswriters to speak loud and clear about that. I don't see any of those guys getting in."

 

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

What a curious choice of player to single out, eh?

[Guest]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/20/opinion/20chafets.html?_r=1

 

Since the dawn of baseball, players have used whatever substances they believed would help them perform better, heal faster or relax during a long and stressful season. As far back as 1889, the pitcher Pud Galvin ingested monkey testosterone. During Prohibition, Grover Cleveland Alexander, also a pitcher, calmed his nerves with federally banned alcohol, and no less an expert than Bill Veeck, who owned several major-league teams, said that Alexander was a better pitcher drunk than sober.

 

In 1961, during his home run race with Roger Maris, Mickey Mantle developed a sudden abscess that kept him on the bench. It came from an infected needle used by Max Jacobson, a quack who injected Mantle with a home-brew containing steroids and speed. In his autobiography, Hank Aaron admitted once taking an amphetamine tablet during a game. The Pirates’ John Milner testified at a drug dealer’s trial that his teammate, Willie Mays, kept “red juice,” a liquid form of speed, in his locker. (Mays denied it.) After he retired, Sandy Koufax admitted the he was often “half high” on the mound from the drugs he took for his ailing left arm.

 

Purists say that steroids alter the game. But since the Hall opened its doors, baseball has never stopped changing. Batters now wear body padding and helmets. The pitcher’s mound has risen and fallen. Bats have more pop. Night games affect visibility. Players stay in shape in the off-season. Expansion has altered the game’s geography. And its demography has changed beyond recognition. Babe Ruth never faced a black pitcher. As Chris Rock put it, Ruth’s record consisted of “714 affirmative-action home runs.” This doesn’t diminish Ruth’s accomplishment, but it puts it into context.

 

 

Awesome. Just..Awesome. Sucks that I just posted an article on the front page that says almost exactly this. Only probably not as eloquently.

 

*p.s. everyone should go read the front page and stuff /plug*

It was actually pretty good.

[Bergy92]

I for one am not shocked, but am not so upset at Sosa either. I blame MLB. Maybe this is just being cynicle, maybe someone can help me...but why was it wrong? So if someone were to take PED before there was any drug testing policy in place, isn't the fault with MLB, not with the player? The only reason I have heard in the past is that it is illegal (in America). I suppose I do not know how they work, but what if Sosa juiced all off-season and then came to America and did not take them here, would that be illegal? Not sure how they work, but would he shrink during the season?

 

What makes it ethically wrong?

[Soul]

"We have some other players coming up like [Rafael] Palmeiro coming up soon, and it'll be up to the sportswriters to speak loud and clear about that. I don't see any of those guys getting in."

 

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

What a curious choice of player to single out, eh?

 

Hehehe. Yeah.

[jersey cubs fan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/20/opinion/20chafets.html?_r=1

 

As far back as 1889, the pitcher Pud Galvin ingested monkey testosterone. .

 

I don't want to know in what form he took that testosterone.

[Old Style]

Shut it, Ryno.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/news/story?id=4281359

Do you disagree?

[Banedon]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/20/opinion/20chafets.html?_r=1

 

As far back as 1889, the pitcher Pud Galvin ingested monkey testosterone. .

 

I don't want to know in what form he took that testosterone.

 

I actually had to look up and make sure that guy's given name wasn't Pud.

[jersey cubs fan]

Shut it, Ryno.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/news/story?id=4281359

Do you disagree?

 

I do. All sorts of players have bent rules, including taking illegal substances, to gain an edge, throughout history and many of them are in the HOF.

[Guest]

Shut it, Ryno.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/news/story?id=4281359

Do you disagree?

 

I do. All sorts of players have bent rules, including taking illegal substances, to gain an edge, throughout history and many of them are in the HOF.

I've almost done a 180 on this. At first I didn't think they deserved to be in the HOF, but now I do. The reason for this is that in the era they played "juicing" was a common practice much like taking "pep" pills or throwing spit balls was in past eras. What Bonds and the rest have done doesn't diminish Aaron or Ruth at all.

 

I think they do need a special section in the HOF for the "steroid era" though.

[dew1679666265]

Shut it, Ryno.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/news/story?id=4281359

Do you disagree?

 

I do. All sorts of players have bent rules, including taking illegal substances, to gain an edge, throughout history and many of them are in the HOF.

I've almost done a 180 on this. At first I didn't think they deserved to be in the HOF, but now I do. The reason for this is that in the era they played "juicing" was a common practice much like taking "pep" pills or throwing spit balls was in past eras. What Bonds and the rest have done doesn't diminish Aaron or Ruth at all.

 

I think they do need a special section in the HOF for the "steroid era" though.

 

Why not make a wing for each era and put the corresponding players in each? "Dead Ball Era," "Steroid Era," etc.

[Guest]

Shut it, Ryno.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/news/story?id=4281359

Do you disagree?

 

I do. All sorts of players have bent rules, including taking illegal substances, to gain an edge, throughout history and many of them are in the HOF.

I've almost done a 180 on this. At first I didn't think they deserved to be in the HOF, but now I do. The reason for this is that in the era they played "juicing" was a common practice much like taking "pep" pills or throwing spit balls was in past eras. What Bonds and the rest have done doesn't diminish Aaron or Ruth at all.

 

I think they do need a special section in the HOF for the "steroid era" though.

 

Why not make a wing for each era and put the corresponding players in each? "Dead Ball Era," "Steroid Era," etc.

They already kind of do that sort of thing at the Museum.

[dew1679666265]

They already kind of do that sort of thing at the Museum.

 

Ah, I've never been there before.

[SouthSideRyan]

Shut it, Ryno.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/news/story?id=4281359

Do you disagree?

 

I do. All sorts of players have bent rules, including taking illegal substances, to gain an edge, throughout history and many of them are in the HOF.

I've almost done a 180 on this. At first I didn't think they deserved to be in the HOF, but now I do. The reason for this is that in the era they played "juicing" was a common practice much like taking "pep" pills or throwing spit balls was in past eras. What Bonds and the rest have done doesn't diminish Aaron or Ruth at all.

 

I think they do need a special section in the HOF for the "steroid era" though.

 

Why not make a wing for each era and put the corresponding players in each? "Dead Ball Era," "Steroid Era," etc.

 

Because it's stupid to honor people while trying to disgrace them. When will the "Cocaine Era" wing be debuting? And the "No Negroes allowed Era?"

[dew1679666265]

Because it's stupid to honor people while trying to disgrace them. When will the "Cocaine Era" wing be debuting? And the "No Negroes allowed Era?"

 

It wouldn't be meant to disgrace them. I'd be just fine with just inducting them and moving on.

 

But if people insist on a special wing for one group of players, why not wings for all the different eras?

[Guest]

[

Because it's stupid to honor people while trying to disgrace them. When will the "Cocaine Era" wing be debuting? And the "No Negroes allowed Era?"

They don't have a Cocaine special section at the HOF but they do very much have the "No negroes allowed" special section.

[CUBZ99]

Shut it, Ryno.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/news/story?id=4281359

Do you disagree?

 

I do. All sorts of players have bent rules, including taking illegal substances, to gain an edge, throughout history and many of them are in the HOF.

 

Yes, but not all of them were caught. It is different in a case like Sosa's where reportedly there is proof that he was cheating by taking illegal substances.

[Sammy Sofa]

Shut it, Ryno.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/news/story?id=4281359

Do you disagree?

 

I do. All sorts of players have bent rules, including taking illegal substances, to gain an edge, throughout history and many of them are in the HOF.

 

Yes, but not all of them were caught. It is different in a case like Sosa's where reportedly there is proof that he was cheating by taking illegal substances.

 

Proof he was using in 2003.

 

Now, I'm not realistically saying that it was likely he wasn't using when he was at his peak, but when you look at it rationally, why does getting caught for something in one season automatically negate your numbers from other seasons?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

"We have some other players coming up like [Rafael] Palmeiro coming up soon, and it'll be up to the sportswriters to speak loud and clear about that. I don't see any of those guys getting in."

 

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

Sandberg is a selfish slimeball. Stay out of Chicago, go manage the Tampa Bay Devil Rays.

 

Slimeball who cheated on poor Cindy. Cindy's an awesome lady.

 

Family comes first. Some people never learn.

[Tracer Bullet]

Shut it, Ryno.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/news/story?id=4281359

Do you disagree?

 

Exclude everyone that's ever been caught cheating? Or just those who were caught with certain PED's in the 90s-00s?

 

Seems like an arbitrary spot for a bright line. I'm getting a little tired of Ryno's "play the game the right way" shtick.

[SouthSideRyan]

[

Because it's stupid to honor people while trying to disgrace them. When will the "Cocaine Era" wing be debuting? And the "No Negroes allowed Era?"

They don't have a Cocaine special section at the HOF but they do very much have the "No negroes allowed" special section.

 

They have a Negro League section, do they segment out ballplayers who played with only whites? from post-1947 players?

[Rusch33]

Didn't Sandberg wife nail Dave Martinez too, and he was packed out of town right after it?