Gregg Chosen as Closer

[The Other 15]

I follow, I am just suggesting that you might be wrong. He's not a ordinary "set up man". Like I said earlier, he won't get a crazy contract but it would be a sizable one nonetheless.

then why are you arguing with me? i never suggested that he won't get a sizable one. i stated that he wont get the same one he COULD get had he brought save numbers to the negotiating table.

No, what you stated was,

"is it really this hard or are you intentionally being obtuse?

 

a closer is someone who pitches the 9th inning when their team is winning. he's the person who racks up saves. he's also the person who gets paid more than the setup men and the long relievers (assuming service time, of course).

 

yes, teams could and will consider marmol as someone who could be a great closer. but unless carlos has been a closer, he wont get paid like a closer."

Did I obtusely misunderstand that?

i think you did. do you have someone nearby that can read it to you? i honestly have no idea how youre not understanding what i'm saying.

What could i say to that (resisting urge to say your mom)?

 

Alright, that may have been over the line. But you're a piece of work. You get cought in a complete contradiction then have the balls to come back with more insults.

[wvcbxl]

I follow, I am just suggesting that you might be wrong. He's not a ordinary "set up man". Like I said earlier, he won't get a crazy contract but it would be a sizable one nonetheless.

then why are you arguing with me? i never suggested that he won't get a sizable one. i stated that he wont get the same one he COULD get had he brought save numbers to the negotiating table.

No, what you stated was,

"is it really this hard or are you intentionally being obtuse?

 

a closer is someone who pitches the 9th inning when their team is winning. he's the person who racks up saves. he's also the person who gets paid more than the setup men and the long relievers (assuming service time, of course).

 

yes, teams could and will consider marmol as someone who could be a great closer. but unless carlos has been a closer, he wont get paid like a closer."

Did I obtusely misunderstand that?

i think you did. do you have someone nearby that can read it to you? i honestly have no idea how youre not understanding what i'm saying.

What could i say to that (resisting urge to say your mom)?

 

Alright, that may have been over the line. But you're a piece of work. You get cought in a complete contradiction then have the balls to come back with more insults.

 

So lemme get this straight: you two basically agree, you just enjoy a good internet fight too much to pass on the opportunity?

[lloydo]

Why should any of us be concerned with the contract Carlos Marmol is going to get years down the road? He might only get 8 million instead of 12. Forgive me for not crying about that. I don't think Lou should base his bullpen roles on future earning potential for his players. I think he is in the role that best suits the Cubs chances to win this year. If Gregg blows it, he will get his chance this year. If Gregg is fine, Carlos will probably get to close next year.

[The Other 15]

I follow, I am just suggesting that you might be wrong. He's not a ordinary "set up man". Like I said earlier, he won't get a crazy contract but it would be a sizable one nonetheless.

then why are you arguing with me? i never suggested that he won't get a sizable one. i stated that he wont get the same one he COULD get had he brought save numbers to the negotiating table.

No, what you stated was,

"is it really this hard or are you intentionally being obtuse?

 

a closer is someone who pitches the 9th inning when their team is winning. he's the person who racks up saves. he's also the person who gets paid more than the setup men and the long relievers (assuming service time, of course).

 

yes, teams could and will consider marmol as someone who could be a great closer. but unless carlos has been a closer, he wont get paid like a closer."

Did I obtusely misunderstand that?

i think you did. do you have someone nearby that can read it to you? i honestly have no idea how youre not understanding what i'm saying.

What could i say to that (resisting urge to say your mom)?

 

Alright, that may have been over the line. But you're a piece of work. You get cought in a complete contradiction then have the balls to come back with more insults.

 

So lemme get this straight: you two basically agree, you just enjoy a good internet fight too much to pass on the opportunity?

Right. If by "basically agree" you mean that one thinks Marmol would get paid like a top 10 closers average despite not holding the title closer and the other says that he "won't get paid like a closer" unless he held that title previously, then yes that's agreement.

[dew1679666265]

Why should any of us be concerned with the contract Carlos Marmol is going to get years down the road? He might only get 8 million instead of 12. Forgive me for not crying about that. I don't think Lou should base his bullpen roles on future earning potential for his players. I think he is in the role that best suits the Cubs chances to win this year. If Gregg blows it, he will get his chance this year. If Gregg is fine, Carlos will probably get to close next year.

 

I absolutely think Lou made the right call here. It's probably making Carlos a little angry in the short term, but he'll hold the closer's role for ample time before he becomes a free agent, I'd say.

 

Being a fireman this season won't hurt him that much long term - plus it's better for the team now.

[twothousandfive]

Why should any of us be concerned with the contract Carlos Marmol is going to get years down the road? He might only get 8 million instead of 12. Forgive me for not crying about that. I don't think Lou should base his bullpen roles on future earning potential for his players. I think he is in the role that best suits the Cubs chances to win this year. If Gregg blows it, he will get his chance this year. If Gregg is fine, Carlos will probably get to close next year.

 

I absolutely think Lou made the right call here. It's probably making Carlos a little angry in the short term, but he'll hold the closer's role for ample time before he becomes a free agent, I'd say.

 

Being a fireman this season won't hurt him that much long term - plus it's better for the team now.

 

Wait a minute. A big part of why this is the right decision is Marmol is the better pitcher and can be used in more valuable situations, as opposed to sitting around waiting for the ninth inning, or occasionally coming in in the 8th. The Cubs are fortunate that Gregg has experience pitching the ninth AND did a bit better than Marmol this spring. Piniella can claim Gregg "earned" the spot, when in fact (and Piniella has indicated this in the past) Marmol is getting the more important role.

 

The trick is that, from his comments, Marmol doesn't seem to agree that the best relief pitcher needs to be available as early as the sixth inning. There are reasons to think Marmol will be closer a year from now, but that's unlikely to be the best move. I hope someone is thinking about how to keep Marmol in the relief ace position for 2010, as well.

[MidoreX]

It's genius. Our best reliever stays in the most flexible and effective role, and because he's not getting saves he won't cost us as much in arbitration keeping payroll down next year. Two birds, one stone... GENIUS!

 

For those saying Marmol feels slighted, I HIGHLY doubt he'll still be holding a grudge in 3 years.

[dew1679666265]

Why should any of us be concerned with the contract Carlos Marmol is going to get years down the road? He might only get 8 million instead of 12. Forgive me for not crying about that. I don't think Lou should base his bullpen roles on future earning potential for his players. I think he is in the role that best suits the Cubs chances to win this year. If Gregg blows it, he will get his chance this year. If Gregg is fine, Carlos will probably get to close next year.

 

I absolutely think Lou made the right call here. It's probably making Carlos a little angry in the short term, but he'll hold the closer's role for ample time before he becomes a free agent, I'd say.

 

Being a fireman this season won't hurt him that much long term - plus it's better for the team now.

 

Wait a minute. A big part of why this is the right decision is Marmol is the better pitcher and can be used in more valuable situations, as opposed to sitting around waiting for the ninth inning, or occasionally coming in in the 8th. The Cubs are fortunate that Gregg has experience pitching the ninth AND did a bit better than Marmol this spring. Piniella can claim Gregg "earned" the spot, when in fact (and Piniella has indicated this in the past) Marmol is getting the more important role.

 

The trick is that, from his comments, Marmol doesn't seem to agree that the best relief pitcher needs to be available as early as the sixth inning. There are reasons to think Marmol will be closer a year from now, but that's unlikely to be the best move. I hope someone is thinking about how to keep Marmol in the relief ace position for 2010, as well.

 

Marmol will eventually get the closer's job. And that's not necessarily a bad thing if we can find a reliever who can have similar success to him to fill the fireman's role. I know most on here (and I included) want to see Samardzija as a starter, but if he doesn't develop into that role, he could potentially fill that role. Another option could be Angel Guzman if he can prove healthy and live up to his potential this season.

 

Unless we get an option similar in ability to Marmol, I would prefer he stay in the role, but I'm not sure that's realistic over the course of the next few years. Especially if we might want to resign him when he becomes a free agent.

[Coach C]

I don't know if I really like this move. Yeah, he had a nice season with a 3.41 ERA, but given his poor command indicators (37 walks in 68.2 innings) he should had an ERA of 3.80.

 

Marmol, on the other hand, would strike out more than one batter per inning, and he'd be almost closer to sub 3.00 ERA than Gregg will be, IMHO.

[David]

I don't know if I really like this move. Yeah, he had a nice season with a 3.41 ERA, but given his poor command indicators (37 walks in 68.2 innings) he should had an ERA of 3.80.

 

Marmol, on the other hand, would strike out more than one batter per inning, and he'd be almost closer to sub 3.00 ERA than Gregg will be, IMHO.

 

 

Hence keeping Marmol in the more important role.

[dew1679666265]

I don't know if I really like this move. Yeah, he had a nice season with a 3.41 ERA, but given his poor command indicators (37 walks in 68.2 innings) he should had an ERA of 3.80.

 

Marmol, on the other hand, would strike out more than one batter per inning, and he'd be almost closer to sub 3.00 ERA than Gregg will be, IMHO.

 

 

Hence keeping Marmol in the more important role.

 

Plus, with Gregg's penchant of walking people, it's better to start him out with nobody on base in the ninth as opposed to bringing him in with runners on second and third and 1 out (for instance).

 

He has room for some error starting the ninth that he doesn't entering into jams.

[Guest]

Who's the last non closing reliever that has the arm that Marmol has? Lets be realistic, most of the guys with arms like his are either starting or closing games. Also, I don't agree that this will cost him money in arb, because I think he will ask for Closer money and the Cubs will ultimately accept.

as good as marmol is, it's awfully absurd to suggest that there haven't been just as good, if not better, setup men than him.

You're going to have to refresh my memory of set up men that were better than 210 K's in 150 IP and era+ or 326 and 167 over their first two full seasons. K-Rod qualifies as a equal and who else as better or equal?

Lidge

[Soul]

It's genius. Our best reliever stays in the most flexible and effective role, and because he's not getting saves he won't cost us as much in arbitration keeping payroll down next year. Two birds, one stone... GENIUS!

 

For those saying Marmol feels slighted, I HIGHLY doubt he'll still be holding a grudge in 3 years.

 

 

Sheer, unadulterated, BRILLIANCE!

[The Other 15]

Who's the last non closing reliever that has the arm that Marmol has? Lets be realistic, most of the guys with arms like his are either starting or closing games. Also, I don't agree that this will cost him money in arb, because I think he will ask for Closer money and the Cubs will ultimately accept.

as good as marmol is, it's awfully absurd to suggest that there haven't been just as good, if not better, setup men than him.

You're going to have to refresh my memory of set up men that were better than 210 K's in 150 IP and era+ or 326 and 167 over their first two full seasons. K-Rod qualifies as a equal and who else as better or equal?

this discussion is getting away from the original point -- that marmol the setup man will get paid less than marmol the closer, and i was thinking out loud (or on keyboard, i should say) how badly that will affect him. if you want to go through BR pages and see if i'm wrong in my notion that marmol isn't the best setup man ever, go for it. i don't really care to though.

In supporting your argument, would you care to offer an example or two? Who has been better than Marmol as a set-up man, and/or first two years as a set-up man. Some have offered examples (i.e. Rivera). Do you want to even, like, you know, comment on them? Brad Lidge 2003 might be an example. He didn't get closer money until he actually spent time as a closer.

 

Gregg being the closer for us pretty much guarantees he enters next offseason as a Type A free agent... one we aren't likely to bring back. I certainly wont be crying when this move nets us a couple high draft picks.

And then Marmol becomes "closer"? I hate to think this plays a role, but it probably does. Though, wouldn't Gregg as set-up man be a bit cheaper and easier to bring back?

 

I suppose the stats can be used to make an argument (six years versus two) but I think Marmol is the better pitcher. Is it possible they want to keep open the option of Marmol starting? Maybe after 2009, re-sign Gregg, and make Marmol a starter? Perhaps because they traded several starters depth (Samardzija, Marshall, Heilman) mid-season for a top-notch starter?

In supporting your argument, would you care to offer an example or two? Who has been better than Marmol as a set-up man, and/or first two years as a set-up man. Some have offered examples (i.e. Rivera). Do you want to even, like, you know, comment on them? Brad Lidge 2003 might be an example. He didn't get closer money until he actually spent time as a closer.

Well, um, like, you know, in support, I think we covered that the Marmol comparables are in the ilk of Rivera, K-Rod, Lidge, and to a lesser degree a few others. My comment is that from those comparisons the conclusion I draw is that Marmol is no ordinary "set up" man but a exceptional reliever. If he continues to perform like he has in his past, even if he never holds the title "closer," he would likely get a "closers" contract. That point can certainly be debated, along with how much he would be offered (just one team desperate enough is all it takes to get top money), but not completely dismissed as improbable.

[Hector89]

I'm glad Gregg won the closers spot. He's a proven closer unlike Marmol. I love Marmol, but he'll get a chance next spring training to be the closer.

[BCVM22]

He's a proven closer unlike Marmol

 

You do realize that if the phrase "proven closer" actually meant anything, we'd have started the 2008 season with Bob Howry closing games, right?

[Hector89]

He's a proven closer unlike Marmol

 

You do realize that if the phrase "proven closer" actually meant anything, we'd have started the 2008 season with Bob Howry closing games, right?

 

So now you want to compare a guy who's had 61 saves in the last 2 years to a guy who's had 66 saves in the past 11 years? Interesting.

[BCVM22]

I think the point I was making was sufficiently clear, that had Marmol been named the closer and subsequently struggled, it would not have been because he wasn't a "proven closer" or whatever.

[XZero771679666304]

Who's the last non closing reliever that has the arm that Marmol has? Lets be realistic, most of the guys with arms like his are either starting or closing games. Also, I don't agree that this will cost him money in arb, because I think he will ask for Closer money and the Cubs will ultimately accept.

as good as marmol is, it's awfully absurd to suggest that there haven't been just as good, if not better, setup men than him.

You're going to have to refresh my memory of set up men that were better than 210 K's in 150 IP and era+ or 326 and 167 over their first two full seasons. K-Rod qualifies as a equal and who else as better or equal?

Lidge

 

In his first two years in the pen, Dotel was right up there as well.

[Hector89]

I think the point I was making was sufficiently clear, that had Marmol been named the closer and subsequently struggled, it would not have been because he wasn't a "proven closer" or whatever.

 

I just didn't see the need to bring up Bob Howry in this. A guy who has 66 saves and about 30 blown saves in his career. It's hard to imagine that guy as your closer. You can't even compare him to Gregg. Gregg's a guy who has about the same amount of saves Howry has and he's only blown half the saves Howry has.

[SouthSideRyan]

But you gotta admit, the Marlins were buffoons to trust a guy who was 1 for 3, 33%!!! in save opportunities to begin with.

[CubColtPacer]

I think the point I was making was sufficiently clear, that had Marmol been named the closer and subsequently struggled, it would not have been because he wasn't a "proven closer" or whatever.

 

I just didn't see the need to bring up Bob Howry in this. A guy who has 66 saves and about 30 blown saves in his career. It's hard to imagine that guy as your closer. You can't even compare him to Gregg. Gregg's a guy who has about the same amount of saves Howry has and he's only blown half the saves Howry has.

 

That's because Howry has been a setup man a lot longer than Gregg was. If you're a 7th or 8th inning pitcher, you can't get saves (because you never go all the way to the finish) but if you lose the lead you get a blown save. His numbers are skewed quite a bit because of that.

[Mephistopheles]

to be fair, howry was a closer for a year or so...

[dew1679666265]

I'm glad Gregg won the closers spot. He's a proven closer unlike Marmol. I love Marmol, but he'll get a chance next spring training to be the closer.

 

Just out of curiosity, did you support Kerry Wood as closer last year?

[Hector89]

As a matter of fact, I did.