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Gregg Chosen as Closer


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Who's the last non closing reliever that has the arm that Marmol has? Lets be realistic, most of the guys with arms like his are either starting or closing games. Also, I don't agree that this will cost him money in arb, because I think he will ask for Closer money and the Cubs will ultimately accept.

as good as marmol is, it's awfully absurd to suggest that there haven't been just as good, if not better, setup men than him.

You're going to have to refresh my memory of set up men that were better than 210 K's in 150 IP and era+ or 326 and 167 over their first two full seasons. K-Rod qualifies as a equal and who else as better or equal?

this discussion is getting away from the original point -- that marmol the setup man will get paid less than marmol the closer, and i was thinking out loud (or on keyboard, i should say) how badly that will affect him. if you want to go through BR pages and see if i'm wrong in my notion that marmol isn't the best setup man ever, go for it. i don't really care to though.

The other point (keep an open mind that there are other points than just yours) is that obviously Marmol wont be looked at as a ordinary "set up man" . His FA value may or may not be affected by his standing as set up or closer, but it's certainly open for debate if he keeps putting up these numbers in any role.

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This is a poor decision.

 

Imagine if you were working for a company and you were outproducing everyone else and were in line for a promotion. And when the spot opens up and you and everyone thought you would likely be the choice to get the job, they tell you you have to compete with a new guy they just brought in. And then in the end, they hand the new guy the job that you know you could have done just as well if not better.

 

So it's not surprising Marmol feels slighted. And any chance that the Cubs had to signing him at a home town discount for loyalty reasons when he's about to reach free agency is probably 0. He'll likely go where he feels appreciated - that is where the pay is the highest.

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This is a poor decision.

 

Imagine if you were working for a company and you were outproducing everyone else and were in line for a promotion. And when the spot opens up and you and everyone thought you would likely be the choice to get the job, they tell you you have to compete with a new guy they just brought in. And then in the end, they hand the new guy the job that you know you could have done just as well if not better.

 

So it's not surprising Marmol feels slighted. And any chance that the Cubs had to signing him at a home town discount for loyalty reasons when he's about to reach free agency is probably 0. He'll likely go where he feels appreciated - that is where the pay is the highest.

 

by the time Marmol reaches free agency, he'll have been the closer for a couple of seasons or not good enough/too injured to do it.

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If Gregg has success how long until people start showing up to games in those ridiculous glasses he wears? It could be like Clement 2.0

 

Won't take them long to put the glasses on if he succeeds.

 

Won't take them long to boo the crap out of him if he falters.

 

If Gregg isn't lights out in the first two weeks of the season and blows a save or two he will probably get booed every time he is on the field at Wrigley. That will put pressure on Piniella to put Marmol into the closers role for the rest of the season. We will then have our "educated" home fans to blame for not having these two guys in the right roles as they are now.

No, we'd have Lou to blame for listening to the "educated" fans. Lou makes the decision, not the fans.
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Who's the last non closing reliever that has the arm that Marmol has? Lets be realistic, most of the guys with arms like his are either starting or closing games. Also, I don't agree that this will cost him money in arb, because I think he will ask for Closer money and the Cubs will ultimately accept.

as good as marmol is, it's awfully absurd to suggest that there haven't been just as good, if not better, setup men than him.

You're going to have to refresh my memory of set up men that were better than 210 K's in 150 IP and era+ or 326 and 167 over their first two full seasons. K-Rod qualifies as a equal and who else as better or equal?

 

If Joey Devine is even half as good as he was last year he'll be absurd. He posted a 685 ERA+ last year

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This is a poor decision.

 

Imagine if you were working for a company and you were outproducing everyone else and were in line for a promotion. And when the spot opens up and you and everyone thought you would likely be the choice to get the job, they tell you you have to compete with a new guy they just brought in. And then in the end, they hand the new guy the job that you know you could have done just as well if not better.

 

So it's not surprising Marmol feels slighted. And any chance that the Cubs had to signing him at a home town discount for loyalty reasons when he's about to reach free agency is probably 0. He'll likely go where he feels appreciated - that is where the pay is the highest.

 

it's about doing what's best for the team, not making individual players happy. marmol is most valuable where he is now.

 

anyways, if he hits free agency as a closer he's going to get a huge paycheck and one i'd rather not pay for a reliever

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Also, I don't agree that this will cost him money in arb, because I think he will ask for Closer money and the Cubs will ultimately accept.

 

That's absurd.

 

"I know no arbitrator on earth would give me this contract, but I'm asking for it."

 

"Sounds great!"

 

It is not absurd.

 

There is more to an arb hearing than just saves. There are a wide range of things that go into these hearings and Marmol has all kinds of numbers to warrant a contract worth "closer money".

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he's not going to get closer money BECAUSE HE'S NOT A CLOSER. that's the whole point. that's like saying "well carlos i know you typically pitch in the 8th innings, but because you're so good at it we're going to pay you as if you were a starter. sabbathia money it is!!!"
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Also, I don't agree that this will cost him money in arb, because I think he will ask for Closer money and the Cubs will ultimately accept.

 

That's absurd.

 

"I know no arbitrator on earth would give me this contract, but I'm asking for it."

 

"Sounds great!"

 

It is not absurd.

 

There is more to an arb hearing than just saves. There are a wide range of things that go into these hearings and Marmol has all kinds of numbers to warrant a contract worth "closer money".

 

He's going to get quality reliever money. Not being a closer, and not racking up saves absolutely will cost him money in arbitration. Saves aren't the only thing, but they are a meaningful this in this discussion. If he put up the same numbers as closer or set-up man, he would absolutely get more money doing it as a closer.

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he's not going to get closer money BECAUSE HE'S NOT A CLOSER. that's the whole point. that's like saying "well carlos i know you typically pitch in the 8th innings, but because you're so good at it we're going to pay you as if you were a starter. sabbathia money it is!!!"

 

It will impact his potential earnings through is arbitration years. However, when he hits free agency, it's certainly possible that a team could pay him closer money to actually be its closer. If a team feels he can be a top-tier closer, they very well could pay him as such.

 

I think this is all moot anyway. There's a good chance that Marmol (if he stays healthy) will have a year or two of closing under his belt when he hits free agency.

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I don't understand why this is such a bad decision.

 

Why is it bad to keep your shutdown guy in the same role where he has been so successful?

 

As for Carlos' feelings, nobody promised anyone they would get everything they want, at the exact time they want it. Certainly not Lou.

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I don't understand why this is such a bad decision.

 

Why is it bad to keep your shutdown guy in the same role where he has been so successful?

 

As for Carlos' feelings, nobody promised anyone they would get everything they want, at the exact time they want it. Certainly not Lou.

 

Is anyone saying that? I get the impression that most of us are happy about this decision.

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Anyone paying attention knows I'm happy about this.. :)

 

With Gregg getting to close and Fontenot getting the 2B (for the most part, at least), I'm 2 for 2 in what I wanted to see happen in ST.

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I think this was the right move. I think Marmol was right when he said the decision was already made before spring training.

 

Hard to say, really. With the way the ST performances went, if there was a legit competition, Gregg won it fair and square and pretty easily.

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I don't understand why this is such a bad decision.

 

Why is it bad to keep your shutdown guy in the same role where he has been so successful?

 

As for Carlos' feelings, nobody promised anyone they would get everything they want, at the exact time they want it. Certainly not Lou.

 

Is anyone saying that? I get the impression that most of us are happy about this decision.

 

This is a poor decision.

 

Yes.

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Who's the last non closing reliever that has the arm that Marmol has? Lets be realistic, most of the guys with arms like his are either starting or closing games. Also, I don't agree that this will cost him money in arb, because I think he will ask for Closer money and the Cubs will ultimately accept.

 

The Yankees had Mariano in relief for a couple years until they let Wetteland go.

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he's not going to get closer money BECAUSE HE'S NOT A CLOSER. that's the whole point. that's like saying "well carlos i know you typically pitch in the 8th innings, but because you're so good at it we're going to pay you as if you were a starter. sabbathia money it is!!!"

WHAT IS A CLOSER? Wow, my point does get better with all caps. IS A CLOSER A SHUT DOWN PITCHER? COULD TEAMS IN NEED OF A CLOSER CONSIDER MARMOL AS ONE OF THOSE GUYS SHOULD THE CUBS BE SILLY ENOUGH TO ALLOW HIM TO BECOME? I'M YELLING AND I DON'T KNOW WHY!!

 

Joey Devine? Ok, when he follows up his 45 IP with 100 IP and improves his K ratio this season we'll include him. Dotel, I could buy though the K rate is lacking so no. Marioano? Absolutely. Lidge? Close but no. Anyways, it's becoming clear that Marmols production is not just very good, but exceptional. How many of those types of guys have hit the FA market without at least one year of "Closers Role?" Not many, and I wouldn't be holding by breath for him either.

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he's not going to get closer money BECAUSE HE'S NOT A CLOSER. that's the whole point. that's like saying "well carlos i know you typically pitch in the 8th innings, but because you're so good at it we're going to pay you as if you were a starter. sabbathia money it is!!!"

WHAT IS A CLOSER? Wow, my point does get better with all caps. IS A CLOSER A SHUT DOWN PITCHER? COULD TEAMS IN NEED OF A CLOSER CONSIDER MARMOL AS ONE OF THOSE GUYS SHOULD THE CUBS BE SILLY ENOUGH TO ALLOW HIM TO BECOME? I'M YELLING AND I DON'T KNOW WHY!!

 

Joey Devine? Ok, when he follows up his 45 IP with 100 IP and improves his K ratio this season we'll include him. Dotel, I could buy though the K rate is lacking so no. Marioano? Absolutely. Lidge? Close but no. Anyways, it's becoming clear that Marmols production is not just very good, but exceptional. How many of those types of guys have hit the FA market without at least one year of "Closers Role?" Not many, and I wouldn't be holding by breath for him either.

 

Marmol is a long way off from free agency. He'll take over the closer's role before that becomes an issue, provided his arm doesn't fall off. But that's an entirely different story. When he hits his first year of arbitration, if he doesn't have save totals on his resume, it will cost him money.

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he's not going to get closer money BECAUSE HE'S NOT A CLOSER. that's the whole point. that's like saying "well carlos i know you typically pitch in the 8th innings, but because you're so good at it we're going to pay you as if you were a starter. sabbathia money it is!!!"

WHAT IS A CLOSER? Wow, my point does get better with all caps. IS A CLOSER A SHUT DOWN PITCHER? COULD TEAMS IN NEED OF A CLOSER CONSIDER MARMOL AS ONE OF THOSE GUYS SHOULD THE CUBS BE SILLY ENOUGH TO ALLOW HIM TO BECOME? I'M YELLING AND I DON'T KNOW WHY!!

is it really this hard or are you intentionally being obtuse?

 

a closer is someone who pitches the 9th inning when their team is winning. he's the person who racks up saves. he's also the person who gets paid more than the setup men and the long relievers (assuming service time, of course).

 

yes, teams could and will consider marmol as someone who could be a great closer. but unless carlos has been a closer, he wont get paid like a closer. think of it this way. you've got two pitchers, equal era's, equal whips. yet player A saved 44 games last year, while player B was player A's setup man. when teams X and Y are both looking to sign a closer, and both players are on the market, do you honestly feel that each player will get the same contract? or even remotely similar for that matter? if so, you need to take an hour or so and educate yourself on how the market works.

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he's not going to get closer money BECAUSE HE'S NOT A CLOSER. that's the whole point. that's like saying "well carlos i know you typically pitch in the 8th innings, but because you're so good at it we're going to pay you as if you were a starter. sabbathia money it is!!!"

WHAT IS A CLOSER? Wow, my point does get better with all caps. IS A CLOSER A SHUT DOWN PITCHER? COULD TEAMS IN NEED OF A CLOSER CONSIDER MARMOL AS ONE OF THOSE GUYS SHOULD THE CUBS BE SILLY ENOUGH TO ALLOW HIM TO BECOME? I'M YELLING AND I DON'T KNOW WHY!!

is it really this hard or are you intentionally being obtuse?

 

a closer is someone who pitches the 9th inning when their team is winning. he's the person who racks up saves. he's also the person who gets paid more than the setup men and the long relievers (assuming service time, of course).

 

yes, teams could and will consider marmol as someone who could be a great closer. but unless carlos has been a closer, he wont get paid like a closer. think of it this way. you've got two pitchers, equal era's, equal whips. yet player A saved 44 games last year, while player B was player A's setup man. when teams X and Y are both looking to sign a closer, and both players are on the market, do you honestly feel that each player will get the same contract? or even remotely similar for that matter? if so, you need to take an hour or so and educate yourself on how the market works.

Gee, thanks for your concern with my education but you could do more to enlighten yourself as well. Of course the pitcher with 44 saves will get a contract, but in a market where there is a need for a closers, people won't stop looking for one when that guys is signed. If a player of Marmols caliber is available he will likely garner a sizeable contract as well. Should I add in a insult to your intelligence to see if you understand my point at this time of my post?

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he's not going to get closer money BECAUSE HE'S NOT A CLOSER. that's the whole point. that's like saying "well carlos i know you typically pitch in the 8th innings, but because you're so good at it we're going to pay you as if you were a starter. sabbathia money it is!!!"

WHAT IS A CLOSER? Wow, my point does get better with all caps. IS A CLOSER A SHUT DOWN PITCHER? COULD TEAMS IN NEED OF A CLOSER CONSIDER MARMOL AS ONE OF THOSE GUYS SHOULD THE CUBS BE SILLY ENOUGH TO ALLOW HIM TO BECOME? I'M YELLING AND I DON'T KNOW WHY!!

 

Joey Devine? Ok, when he follows up his 45 IP with 100 IP and improves his K ratio this season we'll include him. Dotel, I could buy though the K rate is lacking so no. Marioano? Absolutely. Lidge? Close but no. Anyways, it's becoming clear that Marmols production is not just very good, but exceptional. How many of those types of guys have hit the FA market without at least one year of "Closers Role?" Not many, and I wouldn't be holding by breath for him either.

 

 

Marmol is a long way off from free agency. He'll take over the closer's role before that becomes an issue, provided his arm doesn't fall off. But that's an entirely different story. When he hits his first year of arbitration, if he doesn't have save totals on his resume, it will cost him money.

I'm not talking about arbitration, I'm talking about unrestricted free agency. In that market, assuming Marmol continues his dominance, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that someone chooses him over other guys who have held the title of closer because they foresee a better future with him. But like you said, there really is no need to have such a passionate view on this because the likelihood that Marmol reaches FA without having spent at least one season as the "closer" is remote at best.

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he's not going to get closer money BECAUSE HE'S NOT A CLOSER. that's the whole point. that's like saying "well carlos i know you typically pitch in the 8th innings, but because you're so good at it we're going to pay you as if you were a starter. sabbathia money it is!!!"

WHAT IS A CLOSER? Wow, my point does get better with all caps. IS A CLOSER A SHUT DOWN PITCHER? COULD TEAMS IN NEED OF A CLOSER CONSIDER MARMOL AS ONE OF THOSE GUYS SHOULD THE CUBS BE SILLY ENOUGH TO ALLOW HIM TO BECOME? I'M YELLING AND I DON'T KNOW WHY!!

is it really this hard or are you intentionally being obtuse?

 

a closer is someone who pitches the 9th inning when their team is winning. he's the person who racks up saves. he's also the person who gets paid more than the setup men and the long relievers (assuming service time, of course).

 

yes, teams could and will consider marmol as someone who could be a great closer. but unless carlos has been a closer, he wont get paid like a closer. think of it this way. you've got two pitchers, equal era's, equal whips. yet player A saved 44 games last year, while player B was player A's setup man. when teams X and Y are both looking to sign a closer, and both players are on the market, do you honestly feel that each player will get the same contract? or even remotely similar for that matter? if so, you need to take an hour or so and educate yourself on how the market works.

 

Ok, we all realize that if all other numbers are identical, player A will probably get more than player B. Lets look at Brian Fuentes this year:

 

63.7 IP, 2.73 era, 22 bb, 82 K, 1.101 whip, 30 SAVES

Signed a 2 yr, 17.5 mil contract with 9 mil club option on the third year

Marmols stats:

87.3 IP, 2.68 era, 41 bb, 114 K, .927 whip, 7 SAVES

 

Call me crazy, but I have to believe that teams out there would have LINED UP to grab Marmol at this price. I sure everyone will come back now claiming that Fuentes contract is not "closer money" and we have to look at KRod.

 

BTW, I agree Marmol will have closing experience by the time he reaches FA so its probably a non-issue.

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