ESPN: Cedeno & Olson Traded for Heilman (P. 4)

[Hairyducked Idiot]

A full season of Manny, but not the .396/.489/.743 Manny they had last year

 

No, but also not the .283 .327 .328 they got over 400 PAs from Juan Pierre.

[17 Seconds]

A full season of Manny, but not the .396/.489/.743 Manny they had last year

 

No, but also not the .283 .327 .328 they got over 400 PAs from Juan Pierre.

 

No I know, I'm just saying that if you take into account that they'll get a full season from Manny you also have to take into account WHich Manny that is

[cubsfan26]

Honestly it looks like we're done making moves. They'll sign Paul Bako and take this team into Spring Training.

 

I think thats why people are overreacting so much, because they think their done. I don't believe that at all, since we still have some money left to get a pitcher. We probably have too many middle relievers right now(I think Wuertz or Vizcaino are gone), and probably could another bench player. With the Cubs in such a win now mode, do you really think he would have Marshall as the 5th starter, with Heilman/Gaudin as insurance for Harden? I don't see it, and even Crane Kenney said yesterday that Jim and Randy still had alot of work to do before the season starts.

 

Assuming they get Ramirez, I really like the Dodgers as a possible best team in the NL.

 

I think thats depends on Clayton Kershaw, if he pitches like a stud and does a good job replacing Lowe it's possible. But I think losing Lowe is a big loss, especially since they might replace him with Randy Wolf or a lesser pitcher. Otherwise a rotation of Billingsley, Kuroda, F/A, Kershaw and Vargas or old hurt Schmidt doesn't scare me. Mcdonald could be a rotation option to I guess.

[abuck1220]

Oversliding a base is a physical mistake and is likely mechanical flaw as far as deciding when to slide and the inability to put yourself in position to stop your momentum, which doesn't detract from a player's intelligence.

 

Dumb play, mistake, flaw in judgment, like I said its all a matter of the adjective you want to use.

 

I think the people that could best gauge his aptitude would be the people that he spent the most time with, mainly Lou, Hendry, other coaches, his teammates, beat writers, etc. Bruce is pretty reserved in his criticism of players, so I would tend to think that if Bruce was insinuating that Cedeno was viewed as not very bright, that would be closer to the truth than any of us posters on a message board.

 

Where did I say anything about Cedeno and his intelligence or lack of?

 

To try and insinuate that a player oversliding a base is somehow part of a mental flaw, I doubt that person has really spent much running the bases in a live game but if they don't overslide it while playing The show then it must not occur in real life.

 

What is "The Show"? Oversliding a base, per se, is not generally a mental flaw. Not comprehending the situation in the game or understanding that the ball is live if you overslide, is a mental flaw.

 

 

It's live regardless if it's ball 4 or strike 3, it's not like he decided to overslide the base because it was ball 4. He was running aggressively to avoid the strike em out/throw em out and his hand slipped off the bag on the outside of the base.

 

yeah, everyone made a huge production about it because it was ball four. if it had been strike three, it wouldn't have been such a big deal. of course, the guy sliding head first into the base has no idea whether it was ball four or strike three.

[haubrich91]

Stupid trade. Heilman better win the Cy Young now. ****.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

A full season of Manny, but not the .396/.489/.743 Manny they had last year

 

No, but also not the .283 .327 .328 they got over 400 PAs from Juan Pierre.

 

No I know, I'm just saying that if you take into account that they'll get a full season from Manny you also have to take into account WHich Manny that is

 

I agree.

 

Since I like being lazy and letting Fangraphs do the work for me, I'll use their WAR stat. But sadly, they don't split up Manny's totals for when he was a Red Sox vs. when he was a Doger.

 

Juan Pierre 2008 (2/3rds of the Dodgers' left field production): 0.3

Manny Ramirez season: 6.3.

 

I think there's definitely a 2-3 win improvement in having him for the entire season. Then throw in a full season of Kershaw, a bunch of other good young pitchers, and the fact that 5/8ths of their lineup (and the most productive 5/8ths besides Manny last season) is in the 20-26 range and likely to take a collective step forward.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

 

I think thats why people are overreacting so much, because they think their done. I don't believe that at all, since we still have some money left to get a pitcher.

 

We honestly don't know that they have money left. There have been reports both ways.

[rocket]

Usually when you buy low, you don't give up anything of value

[cbbryan]

I don't like this trade. It makes the Pie trade look even worse. I'm higher on Pie than some on the board though.

[Post Count Padder]

Levine says the Cubs will sign backup catcher Paul Bako to a one-year, $750K deal once they clear a spot on the 40-man roster. The 2-for-1 Heilman trade takes care of that.

So help me God if that was one of the reasons for this trade...

[treebird]

Levine says the Cubs will sign backup catcher Paul Bako to a one-year, $750K deal once they clear a spot on the 40-man roster. The 2-for-1 Heilman trade takes care of that.

So help me God if that was one of the reasons for this trade...

 

bako hit .217/.299/.328 last year, and it was his best offensive season since 2005. also, he'll turn 37 in june.

 

if you don't think koyie hill can replicate bako will do, you should clear the spot you need for bako by cutting hill.

[Tyrant]

Stupid trade. Heilman better win the Cy Young now. ****.

 

So the necessary return for Ronny Cedeno and Garrett Olson is a Cy Young award winner?

[erik316wttn]

Jim Hendry is seriously in the bottom 5 GM's in the game.

 

What the hell, Jimbo? Are you on crack?

 

I hate this team sometimes. I really do.

[wade]

Levine says the Cubs will sign backup catcher Paul Bako to a one-year, $750K deal once they clear a spot on the 40-man roster. The 2-for-1 Heilman trade takes care of that.

So help me God if that was one of the reasons for this trade...

 

bako hit .217/.299/.328 last year, and it was his best offensive season since 2005. also, he'll turn 37 in june.

 

if you don't think koyie hill can replicate bako will do, you should clear the spot you need for bako by cutting hill.

 

And, if I recall, that Bako line was aided by a hot streak early in the year that prompted Dusty to start him a lot.

[UMFan83]

Jim Hendry is seriously in the bottom 5 GM's in the game.

 

What the hell, Jimbo? Are you on crack?

 

I hate this team sometimes. I really do.

 

Not directed at you specifically, but I love when someone doesn't get a chance to react to a move until several hours later after we've all calmed down, and comes out bitching. Makes me laugh.

[Soul]

Jim Hendry is seriously in the bottom 5 GM's in the game.

 

What the hell, Jimbo? Are you on crack?

 

I hate this team sometimes. I really do.

 

I wouldn't go that far -- bottom 5 GMs don't pull off some of the good moves Jimbo's gotten done.

 

This one is confusing though.

 

Any chance Heilman has a bounce back season in '09? He wasn't too bad in '07.

[Rob]

Jim Hendry is seriously in the bottom 5 GM's in the game.

 

What the hell, Jimbo? Are you on crack?

 

I hate this team sometimes. I really do.

 

I wouldn't go that far -- bottom 5 GMs don't pull off some of the good moves Jimbo's gotten done.

 

This one is confusing though.

 

Any chance Heilman has a bounce back season in '09? He wasn't too bad in '07.

 

I'd say there's a very good chance of it. I'm a big Heilman fan.

[17 Seconds]

Jim Hendry is seriously in the bottom 5 GM's in the game.

 

What the hell, Jimbo? Are you on crack?

 

I hate this team sometimes. I really do.

 

I wouldn't go that far -- bottom 5 GMs don't pull off some of the good moves Jimbo's gotten done.

 

This one is confusing though.

 

Any chance Heilman has a bounce back season in '09? He wasn't too bad in '07.

 

Or 05 or 06

[Backtobanks]

Stupid trade. Heilman better win the Cy Young now. ****.

 

Yeah because it's a sure thing that Cedeno will be the All Star SS and Olson will win 20 games while Pie will lead the AL in hitting.

[KingCubsFan]

yeah, everyone made a huge production about it because it was ball four. if it had been strike three, it wouldn't have been such a big deal. of course, the guy sliding head first into the base has no idea whether it was ball four or strike three.

Yet, Cedeno is the only one I've ever seen do that.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

yeah, everyone made a huge production about it because it was ball four. if it had been strike three, it wouldn't have been such a big deal. of course, the guy sliding head first into the base has no idea whether it was ball four or strike three.

Yet, Cedeno is the only one I've ever seen do that.

 

Two people made dumb plays in that situation. Molina was dumb enough to risk an overthrow on ball 4, and Cedeno overslid the base to make the gamble pay off. You never see it because the vast majority of catchers are smart enough to not throw the ball to second on ball 4.

[SweetZombieJesus]

Remember I said 50 wins max. I lied 10 wins and that's if we are lucky.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Jim Hendry is seriously in the bottom 5 GM's in the game.

 

What the hell, Jimbo? Are you on crack?

 

I hate this team sometimes. I really do.

 

I wouldn't go that far -- bottom 5 GMs don't pull off some of the good moves Jimbo's gotten done.

 

This one is confusing though.

 

Any chance Heilman has a bounce back season in '09? He wasn't too bad in '07.

 

 

I'm guessing either he bounces back or he has an elbow injury. It doesn't seem likely for him to repeat '08.

[Keener98]

Woahhh wait a minute...Hendry is going to sing Bako to a 750k contract, correct me if Im wrong but isnt that what Blanco signed for? Blanco is a hell of a lot better than Paul freaking Bako.Gahhhhhh this offseason needs to end

[CP_414]

I don't get the uproar. I like this trade. I doubt any GM values Cedeno very highly. Olsen seems like at best he'll be an average #4 or #5 starter, and he may be a few years away from reaching that potential, if he ever does. Heilman was brutal last year, but he was very good in 05, 06, and 07. This gives the Cubs another swingman they could use in a potential Peavy deal or frees up Marshall for that trade. I don't think this in any way hurts the chances of the Cubs adding Peavy. Olsen was a guy San Diego liked, but they just said a few weeks ago he was a very minor part of the trades being discussed in Vegas.

 

If the Cubs don't get Peavy this gives them more options for the rotation. Out of Marshall, Gaudin, Heilman, and Samardzija the Cubs should get above average production from the #5 spot on the cheap in 09. I know he hasn't been connected to the Cubs, but this trade makes Sheets even more appealing to me, with the added depth to our pitching staff.

 

Overall, I don't think the 09 Cubs look better than the 08 Cubs were, but Hendry may still have a significant move once Ricketts takes control.