Bradley Signs with Cubs 3/$30 million (p. 33)

[17 Seconds]

If you want to pretend that you have, fine, whatever.

 

If you want to pretend like an athlete stepping awkwardly on his leg an tearing an ACL is a freak injury, fine. But you didn't answer my question. Everytime bradley suffers a new injury while doing something he's done many time before, is that a freak injury? That's exactly what you're saying, and then you call me nonsensical. Right.

 

By your definition, there are a ton of freak injuries every season, which pretty much means by definition that they are not freak injuries.

 

But yeah, stepping on your leg funny is just freaky. That iwll never ever happen to any player ever again. An athlete stepping on his leg funny? That's just weird.

[ConstableRabbit]

If you want to pretend that you have, fine, whatever.

 

If you want to pretend like an athlete stepping awkwardly on his leg an tearing an ACL is a freak injury, fine. But you didn't answer my question. Everytime bradley suffers a new injury while doing something he's done many time before, is that a freak injury? That's exactly what you're saying, and then you call me nonsensical. Right.

 

By your definition, there are a ton of freak injuries every season, which pretty much means by definition that they are not freak injuries.

 

But yeah, stepping on your leg funny is just freaky. That iwll never ever happen to any player ever again. An athlete stepping on his leg funny? That's just weird.

No, stepping on your leg funny and tearing your ACL as a result is freaky. If he had rolled his ankle or something as a result of stepping on his leg funny, it wouldn't be a freak injury. It would be a reasonable one.

 

When Bradley makes a dive in Right Field and strains his oblique for the first time ever, it's not a freak injury because people have strained stuff while diving before. Furthermore, it's not unreasonable to believe that someone could strain their oblique when reaching for a ball or diving.

 

What if Bradley landed hard on after a dive and ruptured his spleen? Would that not be a freak injury? Because I've seen baseball players land hard many times, and no one has ever ruptured their spleen as a result. In fact, my grandma...

[wrigley23]

you cannot argue w/ Dex as he's never wrong...just ask him.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

What makes a player injury prone if not lots of injuries?

 

You seem to be obsessing over the idea that because it doesn't happen every time, that means it is a fluke.

 

Mark Prior didn't hurt himself every pitch he threw, but he was still injury prone.

 

The odds of Milton Bradley getting hurt by stepping on his legs funny are higher than a normal players, so whether it happens 1% of the time or .5% of the time is the key.

[17 Seconds]

you cannot argue w/ Dex as he's never wrong...just ask him.

 

I love how you don't have time to respond to me when you can no longer defend your weak arguments because you "have a fie and kid", yet you constantly take shots at me and reply to my other posts. awesome

 

and yeah, you're right. a professional baseball player stepping awkwardly on his leg is just freaky. i mean, what are the chances of something like that happening? just.. weird.

[17 Seconds]

What makes a player injury prone if not lots of injuries?

 

You seem to be obsessing over the idea that because it doesn't happen every time, that means it is a fluke.

 

Mark Prior didn't hurt himself every pitch he threw, but he was still injury prone.

 

The odds of Milton Bradley getting hurt by stepping on his legs funny are higher than a normal players, so whether it happens 1% of the time or .5% of the time is the key.

 

I've been explaining to to him over and over again, yet he insists that a guy stepping on his leg awkwardly and tearing his ACL is a freak injury because he hasn't done it before. Then whn I ask if every new injury is a freak injury he ignores it and tells me I'm being nonsensical.

[davearm2]

you cannot argue w/ Dex as he's never wrong...just ask him.

 

I love how you don't have time to respond to me when you can no longer defend your weak arguments because you "have a fie and kid", yet you constantly take shots at me and reply to my other posts. awesome

 

and yeah, you're right. a professional baseball player stepping awkwardly on his leg is just freaky. i mean, what are the chances of something like that happening? just.. weird.

I thought we agreed that professional baseball players step awkwardly their legs fairly frequently.

 

The occurrence is not unusual. In fact its commonness is precisely what makes it freaky when it results in a torn ACL.

 

You'd have to be a fool not to realize that torn ACLs are very rare in baseball. So when one happens, the reasonable conclusion to draw is it was a freak thing, and not evidence that the player involved is weak or fragile or what have you.

[Post Count Padder]

I saw someone mentioned Rondell White. Is it bad if I thought the same thing? How comparable are the two?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

you cannot argue w/ Dex as he's never wrong...just ask him.

 

I love how you don't have time to respond to me when you can no longer defend your weak arguments because you "have a fie and kid", yet you constantly take shots at me and reply to my other posts. awesome

 

and yeah, you're right. a professional baseball player stepping awkwardly on his leg is just freaky. i mean, what are the chances of something like that happening? just.. weird.

I thought we agreed that professional baseball players step awkwardly their legs fairly frequently.

 

The occurrence is not unusual. In fact its commonness is precisely what makes it freaky when it results in a torn ACL.

 

You'd have to be a fool not to realize that torn ACLs are very rare in baseball. So when one happens, the reasonable conclusion to draw is it was a freak thing, and not evidence that the player involved is weak or fragile or what have you.

 

When it happens as part of a series of injuries, it's intentionally obtuse to ignore the probability that the player is fragile.

[RedFlash]

NM.

[NCCubFan]

you cannot argue w/ Dex as he's never wrong...just ask him.

 

I love how you don't have time to respond to me when you can no longer defend your weak arguments because you "have a fie and kid", yet you constantly take shots at me and reply to my other posts. awesome

 

and yeah, you're right. a professional baseball player stepping awkwardly on his leg is just freaky. i mean, what are the chances of something like that happening? just.. weird.

I very distinctly remember Tim telling (not asking) you and wrigley23 to put each other on ignore just a couple of days ago. Do it.

[17 Seconds]

you cannot argue w/ Dex as he's never wrong...just ask him.

 

I love how you don't have time to respond to me when you can no longer defend your weak arguments because you "have a fie and kid", yet you constantly take shots at me and reply to my other posts. awesome

 

and yeah, you're right. a professional baseball player stepping awkwardly on his leg is just freaky. i mean, what are the chances of something like that happening? just.. weird.

I thought we agreed that professional baseball players step awkwardly their legs fairly frequently.

 

The occurrence is not unusual. In fact its commonness is precisely what makes it freaky when it results in a torn ACL.

 

You'd have to be a fool not to realize that torn ACLs are very rare in baseball. So when one happens, the reasonable conclusion to draw is it was a freak thing, and not evidence that the player involved is weak or fragile or what have you.

 

When it happens as part of a series of injuries, it's intentionally obtuse to ignore the probability that the player is fragile.

 

Which is what I've been saying

 

When a player who constantly gets injured twists his leg and, shockingly......gets injured..... I don't see how you can possibly call that a freak injury, even if it is a new injury he hasn't suffered before. Again, by that logic, every time he suffers an injury for the first, it's a "freak" injury. No, it's more like another piece in a pattern.

[Gingerballs Lives]

Does anyone see this ending well?

 

At least Adam Dunn actually plays the field everyday (poorly, but still).

 

With no DH spot available, I see Bradley missing a lot of time.

 

I could give a crap about the defense, the Cubs should get Adam Dunn. When Lee's contract is up, he can shift to first base.

 

Hell, maybe we could trade DLee to the Red Sox now. I know he has a NTC but he might be ok with it as long as he was going to a conteder.

 

The Sox probably want to make a decent splash after the Yanks got Texiera and CC. Youkilis can go back to third and they can dump Lowel. Maybe we can get Ellsbury in return.

 

Ok no more stream of conscience.

Edited January 5, 2009 by Gingerballs Lives!

[atcfootball]

I'm going to do this even though it's against my better judgment..

 

When I was young my mother would tell me: "Never argue with unreasonable people; because you can't reason with them". But here I go anyways.

 

A freak accident should be defined as: An accident that occurs when you would otherwise NOT expect one to occur.

1. D. Lee breaking his wrist: No way anyone would not expect that to happen after his hand, wrist were hit like they were. Take 100 people in the exact same situation and probably 80% it would have resulted in a break.

2. Any pitcher who has arm issues: The arm issue would be a result of the violent movement of the arm when throwing a baseball (arm should include elbow, shoulder and so on).

3. Mark Prior taking a line drive to the elbow; of course he got hurt, nothing freaky about that. The fact he got hit could be called a "freak" thing because players don't often get hit with baseballs when on defense. However his being injured once hit; nothing freaky about that. Anytime someone is hit with a hard object going over 100mph I would have to say an accident is expected.

4. A player swinging a bat; you can't break down every injury that could be expected; but side (oblique’s), back, wrists, fingers, thumbs and possibly hips could become injured during this process. Nothing freaky about that, because one could reasonably expect it to happen.

THE LIST GOES ON.....

 

I would have to say anyone tearing an ACL when being held back is not something you would reasonably (keyword) expect to happen. Take 100 people in the exact same situation and a LOT less than 80% would end in an ACL tear. That to me makes it a freak accident.

Sammy Sosa sneezing and hurting his back (out 30 days); to me that is a freak accident; you just don't NORMALLY expect someone to miss 30 days because of a sneeze.

[17 Seconds]

But that's the thing. The situation was absolutely freaky, but the actual trauma his le was put through, was not. That's what the point is.

 

We're talking about him as a player and if this specific injury should be attributed to his fragile body. The actual scenario that made the injury possible is not what really matters. What matters is what actually caused the injury. Bud Black holding him back made the injury happen, but what actually CAUSED it was slightly twisting his leg.

 

Can we agree that the way he twisted his leg could EASILY happen doing a number of normal baseball related activities? If we can, then I don't think you can call it a freak injury. A freak situation yes, but not a freak injury.

 

It's all semantics at this point, but I think in the context of this discussion, what's relevant is the fact that he tore his ACL by twisting his leg, not that he tore his ACL while twisting his leg while his manager was holding him back from an umpire.

 

One last time- the situation which allowed the injury to happen was freaky. The actualy trauma that occured to his leg and caused the injury was NOT freaky. That, to me, is what is relevant in the context of this dicussion.

 

In any case I don't see how you can call my argument "unreasonable". I've already admitted that the situation was a freak situation, but the actual twist of his leg, which is what directly caused the injury, was not. I really think it's very clear.

 

If this thread was about "weird injuries", then maybe you could call it a freak injury. But we're talking about a specific person and how fragile his body is. IN THAT CONTEXT, the relevant thing is that he tore his ACL while twisting leg. Not the weird activity that he was doing. What makes this possible is the fact that the twisting of his leg could have easily happened when doing something normal that he does every day.

 

It's not like his leg was put through something unique that could have only happened in that situation. It just happened to happen in that weird situation.

[SABR Gamer]

Any news on when this is going to actually get done and not on the definition of what a freak accident is?

[17 Seconds]

Any news on when this is going to actually get done and not on the definition of what a freak accident is?

 

I think Levine said we should hear something this week

[cubsfan26]

Any news on when this is going to actually get done and not on the definition of what a freak accident is?

 

Hopefully soon or right after the Marquis deal becomes offical. I think clearing his salary is holding up the Bradley signing.

[atcfootball]

I really don't believe I'm doing this; to talk about what should be considered freaky is.........freaking me out!

 

Once again: "Never argue with unreasonable people; because you can't reason with them". I should make that my sig.

 

Can we agree that a good definition of freaky could be: "An accident that occurs when you would otherwise NOT expect one to occur." (in this situation?). If no, I give up, you have beat me into submission. If yes, please continue to read.

 

Some situations that would NOT considered to be freaky would be:

A batter being hit in the hand and breaking it.

A base runner twisting an ankle or a leg injury of some kind.

A player being hit in the face with the baseball and having a fractured face.

A player swinging a bat and pulling a muscle in his ribs.

A player stretching out and diving for a hit ball into a wall, hurting any number of things possibly.

 

Do you see to connection between the two? Something happens that forces injury to occur and the situation is obvious to most that an injury should/could have occurred as a result of the action.

 

Some situations that would BE considered freaky could be:

1. A player getting hit in the hand and tearing his ACL.

2. A player running the bases and pulling his pectoral muscle.

3. A player being hit in the face and breaking his leg during the fall.

4. A player swinging a bat and hitting himself in the head; thus causing him to pull a hamstring.

5. A player getting hit (in the leg) with a BUNTED ball and breaking his leg. It would seem (in most cases I would not "normally" expect this to happen.)

6. A sneezing and causing him to go on the DL for 30 days. I will admit I have sneezed and it's caused my back and chest to hurt; but never with the force that it would cause me to miss 30 days of work.

 

Now lets move on to the situation at hand.

Using your words "Bud Black holding him back made the injury happen". I assume he was holding (okay I have seen it) him back in a bear hug fashion around the chest/arms of some nature, correct? He was in no way holding onto his legs or feet, correct? I could then assume based on the above an injury to the chest, back or arms could occur and it would be considered a expected event. I would never assume a leg injury to occur. Same if Bud Black was holding onto his feet/legs I would never assume a chest or arm injury to occur. I leave back out because it's such a diverse part of the body that easy injured doing many things.

Using your own words "but what actually CAUSED it was slightly twisting his leg." If I slightly twist my leg I would not "normally expect" to tear my ACL; it's that simple. Please see points 5 and 6 above for my logic. If you have made it to this point I assume you did agree that a good definition of freaky was: "An accident that occurs when you would otherwise NOT expect one to occur." (in this situation?). There is no way you could expect an accident to occur with a "slight" twist of a leg.

 

By the way this is a article in the Washington Post at the time: "Bradley will miss the rest of the year with a torn anterior cruciate ligament in his right knee. He was injured when his own manager spun him to the ground while trying to keep him from going after umpire Mike Winters during an eighth-inning confrontation in Sunday's 7-3 loss to Colorado at Petco Park."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/24/AR2007092400863.html

This was on ESPN: "Black yanked. And tugged. And pushed. And pulled. Did everything, in fact, but call out the National Guard. Until finally, he and Bradley twisted wildly. And down went Bradley with one of the strangest injuries we've ever witnessed -- a right knee seriously injured in a wrestling match with his own manage."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3033679

 

This would refute your "slight twist" by the way: And if this is truly what happened well then nothing at all was freaky about it. I would expect any player being in a wrestling match with his own manager or being yanked, tugged, pushed, pulled, spun and twisted wildly to the ground to have any number of injuries as a result.

 

If you maintain a "slight twist" well there is no way you could expect an ACL tear.

 

I'm done with this.

[17 Seconds]

Can we agree that a good definition of freaky could be: "An accident that occurs when you would otherwise NOT expect one to occur."

 

The definition of a freaky situation, or a freaky injury? You're not understanding that I'm talking aobut 2 different things. I'm talking about a freaky injury, so my definition of that would be "an INJURY that occurs when you would otherwise not expect one to occur." In this definition, the "when" refers to "when" his leg gets twisted, not "when" Bud Black pulled him down. Please tell me you understand the difference. If Bud Black did something that caused Bradley's leg to be subjected to something that could ONLY happen in that situation, you'd have a point. If he grabbed Bradley by the leg and started spinning him in the air by it, yes, that would be a freak injury because that would never ever happen to Bradley in any other situation. That's not what happened. Watch the video. He got a little tangled up and caught his leg funny. This could easily happen during any baseball related activity. I can't spell it out any easier to explain that a common injury caused by a common mistake is not freaky just because of how it happened, especially in the context of this conversation.

 

You're simply not considering the context of this conversation. The conversation was never about how weird it was that he got injured like that. The context was us discussing how injury prone he was. The fact that his leg got twisted up while Black was holding him back is irrelevant to what we're discussing.

 

IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS CONVERSATION, all that matters is that his leg got twisted up, which could have happened a number of different ways.

 

So yeah, I'll give you the "freak accident" part, but it is not a "freak injury", which is essentially what David was saying since we were basically discussing whether or not that should be counted against him and his always getting injured.

 

Tell me what the difference between these 2 situations is

 

-An injury prone baseball player slips, twists his leg, and tears his ACL while trying to catch his dog in his backyard

 

-The same injury prone baseball player slips in the EXACT same manner (obviously this is impossible, but it's just hypothetical) while running the bases and tears his ACL

 

Since they are both the exact same injury, one can't be considered a "freaky injury" while the other isn't. So what is the difference? The situation. One is a freaky situation, the other is not. One does not make him more injury prone than the other, and one does not make him less injury prone that the other. It's simply the same cause and injury in a different situation.

 

The point, for the 5837th time, is that Bradley twisting his leg like that could have EASILY happened while playing baseball, and that is what's relevant since we're discussing his fragile body and how easily he gets hurt.

 

I supposed now you'll give me the "don't reason with unreasonable people" quote to make yourself feel like you're right and that I'm being unreasonable. Really you're just not understanding what the whole point of this conversation is. Yes he got unlucky that the situation presented itself, and yes it was a freak "accident", but an athlete twisting his leg in not freaky. It just happened during a freak scenario.

 

This. is. relevant. because. we're. discussing. Bradley. being. injury. prone. and. not. discussing. his tendencies. to. get. into. freaky. siutations.

 

Goind by the definitions I've now explained to you, it was a freak accident/situation.

 

It was not a freak injury.

 

By now you must understand the difference, and you must understand which one is relevant to this entire thread.

 

Either way, you're right. This needs to stop because it's pointless and it's gone way too far already. I just think (hope) by now that you understand what I am arguing and that I'm talking in a seemingly completely different context than you.

[Eric Clipperton]

I don't know, between this thread and the Cubs' offseason so far, which is worse? Aaron Miles, or arguing the definition of freak injury? A freak injury to Aaron Miles, while not a likely option, is clearly the best thing that could ever happen to this thread and the offseason at the same time.

[atcfootball]

I give up.

[CoolHandLuke]

How. does. a. person. get. so. emotionally. invested. in. arguing. the. semantics. of. "freak. injury." that. they. resort. to. the. period. after. every. word. tactic?

[Bear Cub]

Now that this topic has been cleared up............

[Little Slide Rooter]

Any news on when this is going to actually get done and not on the definition of what a freak accident is?

 

Hopefully soon or right after the Marquis deal becomes offical. I think clearing his salary is holding up the Bradley signing.

 

I dont get whats holding it back. Last I heard, Marquis was out of town, but it's not like he has a NTC, or at least I hope he wouldnt. Why not just pack up his locker, ship it to Denver, and be done with it?