We won't win with Wood

[Soul]

he's awful. Get him out of there.

 

 

So will budhouse only show up when Woody blows a save?

 

It would appear so. The Sham Closer will get no love from the likes of BH.

[CoolHandLuke]

How in the heck does a pitcher hit more batters than he walks? Besides the hit batsmen, Wood is dealing.

[Sweet Swinging Billy]

I'm sorry but besides being a fan of Kerry Wood, I have to admit that I would feel more comfortable if Woody's and Marmol's roles were reversed. Kerry should be setting marmol up, not the other way around. Although Wood has been pitching well of late, Marmol is "lights out" and has been so dominating. I certainly would breathe easier if the switch were made.

[inari]

I'm sorry but besides being a fan of Kerry Wood, I have to admit that I would feel more comfortable if Woody's and Marmol's roles were reversed. Kerry should be setting marmol up, not the other way around. Although Wood has been pitching well of late, Marmol is "lights out" and has been so dominating. I certainly would breathe easier if the switch were made.

 

Why would it matter? A blown lead is a blown lead.

[Sweet Swinging Billy]

I'm sorry but besides being a fan of Kerry Wood, I have to admit that I would feel more comfortable if Woody's and Marmol's roles were reversed. Kerry should be setting marmol up, not the other way around. Although Wood has been pitching well of late, Marmol is "lights out" and has been so dominating. I certainly would breathe easier if the switch were made.

 

Why would it matter? A blown lead is a blown lead.

 

But Tomy, aren't we trying to avoid from a blown save occurring? ...oh, and a yeah ---Go Hawks!

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm sorry but besides being a fan of Kerry Wood, I have to admit that I would feel more comfortable if Woody's and Marmol's roles were reversed. Kerry should be setting marmol up, not the other way around. Although Wood has been pitching well of late, Marmol is "lights out" and has been so dominating. I certainly would breathe easier if the switch were made.

 

Why would it matter? A blown lead is a blown lead.

 

But Tomy, aren't we trying to avoid from a blown save occurring? ...oh, and a yeah ---Go Hawks!

 

You can blow a save before the 9th inning.

[David]

I'm sorry but besides being a fan of Kerry Wood, I have to admit that I would feel more comfortable if Woody's and Marmol's roles were reversed. Kerry should be setting marmol up, not the other way around. Although Wood has been pitching well of late, Marmol is "lights out" and has been so dominating. I certainly would breathe easier if the switch were made.

 

Would you rather have Marmol coming in to a 9th inning with nobody on, nobody out and a lead between 1-3 runs or would you rather have him come in, say, in the 7th in a tie game with 2 on and nobody out.

 

So called "setup" men are very often coming in in more difficult situations than closers face.

[Soul]

Since Marmol is excelling in his current spot, why not keep him there especially if Woody can figure out being a closer?

 

Either/or will work for me, but I don't really get the complaints about Marmol not closing. There's nothing magical about the closer role. It's relief work, and the rally can come in any inning. It needs to be killed when it happens, whether that be the 7th, 8th, or 9th.

[shnsajax]

I think its funny that Wood has already outlasted the two legit closers with experience in the NL Central and its only May..

[CuseCubFan69]

I think its funny that Wood has already outlasted the two legit closers with experience in the NL Central and its only May..

 

Shhhhh....wrabbits.

[Roast]

I'm so sick of this sham closer.

[MustangMike]

You can blow a save before the 9th inning.

 

This is such a true fact, at yet I'm torn on this issue. I love marmol coming in the 7th or 8th inning when the lead is close or runners are on, because he shuts them down. I wouldn't want wood coming in with a few runners already on, beause if he's wild, its going to open the door. On the other hand, someones like Marino Rivera is a great closer, but he'd be just as good in the 8th inning wouldn't he? But isn't he more valuable to the yankees as a closer? Why is the shutdown guy usually in he 9th?

 

I guess, at this point, its not broke, so don't fix it...and I'm fine with that.

[fiver]

But isn't he more valuable to the yankees as a closer? Why is the shutdown guy usually in he 9th?

 

 

Decide for yourself. In which scenario would your most dominant, "shutdown" relief pitcher be more valuable?

 

1) when leading 5-4 in the bottom of the 9th inning with no one on and the 6th, 7th, and 8th hitters coming to the plate

 

2) or when leading 5-4 in the bottom of the 8th inning with none out and runners on second and third with the 3rd, 4th, and 5th hitters coming to the plate?

 

Managers got into the habit of saving their most dominant relief pitcher for the 9th inning, because the last three outs were supposedly the hardest to obtain. The save statistic also helped to perpetuate this theory in my opinion. I believe that scenario 2 above would be the more difficult situation, and thus I'd want my best relief pither in the game for those outs instead of in the 9th.

[CoolHandLuke]

You can blow a save before the 9th inning.

 

This is such a true fact, at yet I'm torn on this issue. I love marmol coming in the 7th or 8th inning when the lead is close or runners are on, because he shuts them down. I wouldn't want wood coming in with a few runners already on, beause if he's wild, its going to open the door. On the other hand, someones like Marino Rivera is a great closer, but he'd be just as good in the 8th inning wouldn't he? But isn't he more valuable to the yankees as a closer? Why is the shutdown guy usually in he 9th?

 

I guess, at this point, its not broke, so don't fix it...and I'm fine with that.

 

The shutdown guy usually pitches in the 9th because it is what conventional baseball wisdom dictates, not necessarily because that is where he is most valuable. The root cause, in my opinion, is the invention of the "save".

[bukie]

Mariano Rivera is a special case, considering he used to be frequently used for 4+ out saves.

[twothousandfive]

1) when leading 5-4 in the bottom of the 9th inning with no one on and the 6th, 7th, and 8th hitters coming to the plate

 

2) or when leading 5-4 in the bottom of the 8th inning with none out and runners on second and third with the 3rd, 4th, and 5th hitters coming to the plate?

 

That's a pretty contrived situation, especially since even scenario 2 likely results in at least a tie in the ninth.

 

When the first guy in the eighth got on, a reliever should have been brought in. If your second best reliever gives up a double to the first batter he faces in the eighth, and it's indicative of the kind of pitcher he is, there is no post-season for your team.

 

If Marmol can warm up more quickly than Wood, which I think is the case, that's the only reason you need to not have Marmol as the ninth inning "closer."

[Hairyducked Idiot]

1) when leading 5-4 in the bottom of the 9th inning with no one on and the 6th, 7th, and 8th hitters coming to the plate

 

2) or when leading 5-4 in the bottom of the 8th inning with none out and runners on second and third with the 3rd, 4th, and 5th hitters coming to the plate?

 

That's a pretty contrived situation, especially since even scenario 2 likely results in at least a tie in the ninth.

 

When the first guy in the eighth got on, a reliever should have been brought in. If your second best reliever gives up a double to the first batter he faces in the eighth, and it's indicative of the kind of pitcher he is, there is no post-season for your team.

 

If Marmol can warm up more quickly than Wood, which I think is the case, that's the only reason you need to not have Marmol as the ninth inning "closer."

 

It's a simple and unavoidable fact that, on average, a pre-9th inning "leverage" guy will pitch more crucial outs and innings than a pure closer (every 1-3 run lead, ninth-inning only).

 

The perfect situation would be Marmol pitching both pre-9th inning key situations and nailing down 9th-inning, one-run leads.

[javy knows my name]

1) when leading 5-4 in the bottom of the 9th inning with no one on and the 6th, 7th, and 8th hitters coming to the plate

 

2) or when leading 5-4 in the bottom of the 8th inning with none out and runners on second and third with the 3rd, 4th, and 5th hitters coming to the plate?

 

That's a pretty contrived situation, especially since even scenario 2 likely results in at least a tie in the ninth.

 

When the first guy in the eighth got on, a reliever should have been brought in. If your second best reliever gives up a double to the first batter he faces in the eighth, and it's indicative of the kind of pitcher he is, there is no post-season for your team.

 

If Marmol can warm up more quickly than Wood, which I think is the case, that's the only reason you need to not have Marmol as the ninth inning "closer."

 

It's a simple and unavoidable fact that, on average, a pre-9th inning "leverage" guy will pitch more crucial outs and innings than a pure closer (every 1-3 run lead, ninth-inning only).

 

The perfect situation would be Marmol pitching both pre-9th inning key situations and nailing down 9th-inning, one-run leads.

 

But...But...THIS ISN'T CONVENTIONAL!

[badger1679666666]

Woody's last 8 games have been TOTALLY sham-worthy. Freaking Bum.

 

7 and 2/3 IP

4 hits

1 R

5/5 S/SVO

7 K's

1 BB

 

Budhouse please, I need someone with acute baseball knowledge about how terrible Wood has been to vent with. Please join me. Your baseball knowledge is overwhelming to me.

[Cubfanintheknow]

Mariano Rivera is a special case, considering he used to be frequently used for 4+ out saves.

 

Actually, Mariano Rivera used to be the norm. Twenty years ago it was not uncommon for the closer to come in and pitch the last two innings or more of a ball game. At that time, the save was only around for about ten years (I think it was 1969 when the save was first kept as a statistic. I believe we have Jerome Holtzman to thank for it).

 

I'm not a big fan of the rules regarding saves. Remember when the Rangers blew out the Orioles 30-3 last year? Texas pitcher Wes Littleton came in with the Rangers alreading leading 14-3 and pitched the last three innings.

 

He was credited with a save.

 

Edited to add: I think having Marmol as the set-up man with Wood closing is the best route at this time.

[NCCubFan]

(I think it was 1969 when the save was first kept as a statistic. I believe we have Jerome Holtzman to thank for it).

I don't recall whether it was 68 or 69, but it was Holtzman.

[Roast]

How come budhouse hasn't made his way back into this thread. I'm confused.

[wvcbxl]

How come budhouse hasn't made his way back into this thread. I'm confused.

 

He's probably waiting for Wood's next blown save to do so.

In comedy, timing is everything.

[dew1679666265]

1) when leading 5-4 in the bottom of the 9th inning with no one on and the 6th, 7th, and 8th hitters coming to the plate

 

2) or when leading 5-4 in the bottom of the 8th inning with none out and runners on second and third with the 3rd, 4th, and 5th hitters coming to the plate?

 

That's a pretty contrived situation, especially since even scenario 2 likely results in at least a tie in the ninth.

 

When the first guy in the eighth got on, a reliever should have been brought in. If your second best reliever gives up a double to the first batter he faces in the eighth, and it's indicative of the kind of pitcher he is, there is no post-season for your team.

 

If Marmol can warm up more quickly than Wood, which I think is the case, that's the only reason you need to not have Marmol as the ninth inning "closer."

 

It's a simple and unavoidable fact that, on average, a pre-9th inning "leverage" guy will pitch more crucial outs and innings than a pure closer (every 1-3 run lead, ninth-inning only).

 

The perfect situation would be Marmol pitching both pre-9th inning key situations and nailing down 9th-inning, one-run leads.

 

I'm kind of curious (and I'm not using this to argue against using the best reliever in a setup/fireman role, I agree with that thought) how often a closer faces each group of hitters.

 

I keep seeing the "closer facing the 7-8-9 hitters" argument, but is that really any more likely than the closer facing the 1-2-3 or 3-4-5 hitters?

 

Again, it makes no difference in my opinion, I still feel that the best reliever should be used in the most important role (i.e. fireman). I'm just curious.

[shnsajax]

Why is anyone encouraging him to post more?