Cedeno Over Cintron / Fontenot Over Murton - Paul Sullivan

[davearm2]

This is one of the big reasons the Cubs can't develop positional players.

 

We have a player like Murton come up, and we purposely block him because we don't want to give him the opportunity to play anywhere. Sure he's not the best defensive player and would make a much better DH, but the man has hit every time he's been given a shot.

 

Now we have Felix Pie, and already we've signed someone to take ABs away from him. For cripes sakes, let the kid play. We have 3 players with 40 HR potential in our lineup, a Japan league MVP, a ROY favorite, and a super-utility player that many people dubbed our X-factor last year. We can't find 550 ABs for your top prospect 4 years in a row?

 

I understand we've been burned when we let players play (CPatt, Cedeno), but geez at some point you gotta let people play.

Murton was sort of collateral damage from the Soriano signing. The Cubs wanted/needed to make a big splash after the disaster of 2006, and it just so happened that the best available FA that year (Soriano) plays the only position Murton's shown himself to be competent at.

 

Under ideal circumstances, the best available FA that year would've been a SS or a 2B or even a RF, and Murton would've been able to remain the everyday LF -- and I bet the Cubs would agree with that. (Next best outcome would be for Murton to display an ability to play a passable RF... he hasn't, at least not in Lou's eyes.) Unfortunately those weren't the circumstances, and so here we are... not by design so much as by coincidence.

 

Coincidence? No, we're here b/c our GM is terrible at building a baseball team.

Let's focus on the topic at hand please.

 

Would Hendry have built a better baseball team if he had installed Murton in LF and passed on Soriano?

 

How about if he had installed Murton in RF and passed on Fukudome?

 

Which of those two guys is Murton better than?

 

Recall that since the Soriano signing, the Cubs have made efforts to get Murton regular PT. First Soriano did not work out in CF, necessitating a return to LF; then Murton did not work out in RF because of his defensive shortcomings (real or perceived).

Edited March 26, 2008 by davearm2

[Jon]

Are you familiar with the old robot saying, "does not compute?"

[St.Paul Cub]

I hope Murton gets traded. I think he'll be a good player for some team and it's obvious for one reason or another that ain't happening in Chicago.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he gets traded in some deal with Marquis. I know Marquis is the 5th starter, but I really think they're just doing that to drive up his value. Let him start out hot, get his value up and then he's gone.

[Jon]

I hope Murton gets traded. I think he'll be a good player for some team and it's obvious for one reason or another that ain't happening in Chicago.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he gets traded in some deal with Marquis. I know Marquis is the 5th starter, but I really think they're just doing that to drive up his value. Let him start out hot, get his value up and then he's gone.

I would hope he goes in a package deal. To think that his "value" now is probably lower than what it was during Hendry's proposed Murton for Byrd trade is mind-boggling.

 

A straight-up trade would probably depress me too much.

[Tracer Bullet]

This is one of the big reasons the Cubs can't develop positional players.

 

We have a player like Murton come up, and we purposely block him because we don't want to give him the opportunity to play anywhere. Sure he's not the best defensive player and would make a much better DH, but the man has hit every time he's been given a shot.

 

Now we have Felix Pie, and already we've signed someone to take ABs away from him. For cripes sakes, let the kid play. We have 3 players with 40 HR potential in our lineup, a Japan league MVP, a ROY favorite, and a super-utility player that many people dubbed our X-factor last year. We can't find 550 ABs for your top prospect 4 years in a row?

 

I understand we've been burned when we let players play (CPatt, Cedeno), but geez at some point you gotta let people play.

Murton was sort of collateral damage from the Soriano signing. The Cubs wanted/needed to make a big splash after the disaster of 2006, and it just so happened that the best available FA that year (Soriano) plays the only position Murton's shown himself to be competent at.

 

Under ideal circumstances, the best available FA that year would've been a SS or a 2B or even a RF, and Murton would've been able to remain the everyday LF -- and I bet the Cubs would agree with that. (Next best outcome would be for Murton to display an ability to play a passable RF... he hasn't, at least not in Lou's eyes.) Unfortunately those weren't the circumstances, and so here we are... not by design so much as by coincidence.

 

Coincidence? No, we're here b/c our GM is terrible at building a baseball team.

Let's focus on the topic at hand please.

 

Would Hendry have built a better baseball team if he had installed Murton in LF and passed on Soriano?

 

How about if he had installed Murton in RF and passed on Fukudome?

 

Which of those two guys is Murton better than?

 

Recall that since the Soriano signing, the Cubs have made efforts to get Murton regular PT. First Soriano did not work out in CF, necessitating a return to LF; then Murton did not work out in RF because of his defensive shortcomings (real or perceived).

 

So am I to ignore all of your comments because I'm focusing on the topic at hand or did you mean "focus on the topic at hand...after I get my arguments in."

 

Either way, Murton's not better than Soriano or Fukudome, but that's not really the point. Jim has done a terrible job of building a baseball team. Signing Soriano is just one example of this. Sending Murton down so you can carry 12 pitchers in April and carry Mike freaking Fontenot is just the latest example.

[davearm2]

This is one of the big reasons the Cubs can't develop positional players.

 

We have a player like Murton come up, and we purposely block him because we don't want to give him the opportunity to play anywhere. Sure he's not the best defensive player and would make a much better DH, but the man has hit every time he's been given a shot.

 

Now we have Felix Pie, and already we've signed someone to take ABs away from him. For cripes sakes, let the kid play. We have 3 players with 40 HR potential in our lineup, a Japan league MVP, a ROY favorite, and a super-utility player that many people dubbed our X-factor last year. We can't find 550 ABs for your top prospect 4 years in a row?

 

I understand we've been burned when we let players play (CPatt, Cedeno), but geez at some point you gotta let people play.

Murton was sort of collateral damage from the Soriano signing. The Cubs wanted/needed to make a big splash after the disaster of 2006, and it just so happened that the best available FA that year (Soriano) plays the only position Murton's shown himself to be competent at.

 

Under ideal circumstances, the best available FA that year would've been a SS or a 2B or even a RF, and Murton would've been able to remain the everyday LF -- and I bet the Cubs would agree with that. (Next best outcome would be for Murton to display an ability to play a passable RF... he hasn't, at least not in Lou's eyes.) Unfortunately those weren't the circumstances, and so here we are... not by design so much as by coincidence.

 

Coincidence? No, we're here b/c our GM is terrible at building a baseball team.

Let's focus on the topic at hand please.

 

Would Hendry have built a better baseball team if he had installed Murton in LF and passed on Soriano?

 

How about if he had installed Murton in RF and passed on Fukudome?

 

Which of those two guys is Murton better than?

 

Recall that since the Soriano signing, the Cubs have made efforts to get Murton regular PT. First Soriano did not work out in CF, necessitating a return to LF; then Murton did not work out in RF because of his defensive shortcomings (real or perceived).

 

So am I to ignore all of your comments because I'm focusing on the topic at hand or did you mean "focus on the topic at hand...after I get my arguments in."

 

Either way, Murton's not better than Soriano or Fukudome, but that's not really the point. Jim has done a terrible job of building a baseball team. Signing Soriano is just one example of this. Sending Murton down so you can carry 12 pitchers in April and carry Mike freaking Fontenot is just the latest example.

Matt Murton is one topic.

 

"Our GM is terrible" is a completely different topic.

 

Murton's a good player, and I really like him. But he's not the kind of player that prevents a team from pursuing an elite, impact FA like Soriano. Murton's fate with the Cubs has been sealed since the day Soriano signed. Ill-fated attempts to play both guys out of position (Soriano in CF, Murton in RF) couldn't prevent the inevitable.

 

That's not a reflection on Hendry, that's just the way things are. UNLESS you want to take the opposite position, namely that Hendry shouldn't have signed Soriano because he already had Murton to play LF.

 

The problem there is that you've already admitted that Murton's not better than Soriano, so it kinda blows a hole in your "terrible job of building a baseball team" rant to argue that a better idea would be to use a lesser player over a superior one. That's not the way to win more games.

[ter]

Let's focus on the topic at hand please.

 

Would Hendry have built a better baseball team if he had installed Murton in LF and passed on Soriano?

 

How about if he had installed Murton in RF and passed on Fukudome?

 

Which of those two guys is Murton better than?

 

Recall that since the Soriano signing, the Cubs have made efforts to get Murton regular PT. First Soriano did not work out in CF, necessitating a return to LF; then Murton did not work out in RF because of his defensive shortcomings (real or perceived).

 

 

I agree.

 

Obviously Murton is very popular with many fans but to move Soriano or Fukudome to a position they don't play as well just to allow Murton to play a position he doesn't play well seems very unwise.

 

He is a victum of circumstances and his limited defensive skills works against him. If the Cubs decided to go with 11 pitchers instead of 12, Murton would have a much better chance of making the club but with 12 pitchers a player like Johnson (who can play all OF positions) becomes more important than keeping Murton with his limitations on defense.

 

Which leads to something to think about...

 

Since almost all teams now go with 12 pitchers, maybe the answer is to increase rosters by 1 to 26 which then allows for the "normal" 6 reserves instead of 5. I'm sure the union would agree and this would then give management a bargaining chip to establish mandatory blood testing as a trade-off

[RedFlash]

Apparently, Cintron has been released....

[imb]

Whatever will we do without Murton's .800 OPS in our lineup?

 

He's nice, cheap, filler, for anything someone gets hurt.

 

Where the hell is he supposed to play in this lineup? I'd rather stick him in Iowa n case Fukudome or Soriano go down again and we need a replacement for a month than trade him just because he's not going to start.

[Tyrant]

is there anyone who truly doubts he could be a starting major league outfielder?

 

Not for a championship-caliber team.

[davearm2]

Whatever will we do without Murton's .800 OPS in our lineup?

 

He's nice, cheap, filler, for anything someone gets hurt.

 

Where the hell is he supposed to play in this lineup? I'd rather stick him in Iowa n case Fukudome or Soriano go down again and we need a replacement for a month than trade him just because he's not going to start.

Exactly.

 

Let Murton go tear up AAA until we need him to replace an injury, or some other team needs him enough to offer something intriguing.

 

We lose nothing by holding onto him. It's not a bad situation at all (unless you're Murton).

[CubinNY]

is there anyone who truly doubts he could be a starting major league outfielder?

 

Not for a championship-caliber team.

I'm not going to go to the trouble of finding the stats because it's not worth my time, but that's just plain wrong.

[Tracer Bullet]

This is one of the big reasons the Cubs can't develop positional players.

 

We have a player like Murton come up, and we purposely block him because we don't want to give him the opportunity to play anywhere. Sure he's not the best defensive player and would make a much better DH, but the man has hit every time he's been given a shot.

 

Now we have Felix Pie, and already we've signed someone to take ABs away from him. For cripes sakes, let the kid play. We have 3 players with 40 HR potential in our lineup, a Japan league MVP, a ROY favorite, and a super-utility player that many people dubbed our X-factor last year. We can't find 550 ABs for your top prospect 4 years in a row?

 

I understand we've been burned when we let players play (CPatt, Cedeno), but geez at some point you gotta let people play.

Murton was sort of collateral damage from the Soriano signing. The Cubs wanted/needed to make a big splash after the disaster of 2006, and it just so happened that the best available FA that year (Soriano) plays the only position Murton's shown himself to be competent at.

 

Under ideal circumstances, the best available FA that year would've been a SS or a 2B or even a RF, and Murton would've been able to remain the everyday LF -- and I bet the Cubs would agree with that. (Next best outcome would be for Murton to display an ability to play a passable RF... he hasn't, at least not in Lou's eyes.) Unfortunately those weren't the circumstances, and so here we are... not by design so much as by coincidence.

 

Coincidence? No, we're here b/c our GM is terrible at building a baseball team.

Let's focus on the topic at hand please.

 

Would Hendry have built a better baseball team if he had installed Murton in LF and passed on Soriano?

 

How about if he had installed Murton in RF and passed on Fukudome?

 

Which of those two guys is Murton better than?

 

Recall that since the Soriano signing, the Cubs have made efforts to get Murton regular PT. First Soriano did not work out in CF, necessitating a return to LF; then Murton did not work out in RF because of his defensive shortcomings (real or perceived).

 

So am I to ignore all of your comments because I'm focusing on the topic at hand or did you mean "focus on the topic at hand...after I get my arguments in."

 

Either way, Murton's not better than Soriano or Fukudome, but that's not really the point. Jim has done a terrible job of building a baseball team. Signing Soriano is just one example of this. Sending Murton down so you can carry 12 pitchers in April and carry Mike freaking Fontenot is just the latest example.

Matt Murton is one topic.

 

"Our GM is terrible" is a completely different topic.

 

Murton's a good player, and I really like him. But he's not the kind of player that prevents a team from pursuing an elite, impact FA like Soriano. Murton's fate with the Cubs has been sealed since the day Soriano signed. Ill-fated attempts to play both guys out of position (Soriano in CF, Murton in RF) couldn't prevent the inevitable.

 

That's not a reflection on Hendry, that's just the way things are. UNLESS you want to take the opposite position, namely that Hendry shouldn't have signed Soriano because he already had Murton to play LF.

 

The problem there is that you've already admitted that Murton's not better than Soriano, so it kinda blows a hole in your "terrible job of building a baseball team" rant to argue that a better idea would be to use a lesser player over a superior one. That's not the way to win more games.

 

How are Hendry's signings not a reflection on Hendry? That's asinine. He signed a 30+ LF to a huge contract when he had an adequate player in LF that was cheap. And Soriano's not elite. If he could play 2B, fine, but in LF, he's not a guy you spend over $15m a year for.

 

And you clearly didn't read my response or it went right over your head. Soriano's the better player, but Hendry shouldn't have signed him. Since he signed him, certainly he has to play over Murton, but that's not the point. The point is Hendry's bad a building a baseball team. He overspends for a player that blocks a good source of cheap production - which is mismanagement of limited resources. As I said, Soriano is but one example. If Hendry had done a better job of building this team and managing his resources and assets, he wouldn't have felt compelled to spend whatever it took to get Soriano to save his job. But he did, so here we are. Sending down a cheap, 26-year-old LF that would be a perfect complimentary player.

 

But that's not Hendry's fault. He's just the GM. He can't possibly be responsible for managing the roster and resources.

[nick23]

This is one of the big reasons the Cubs can't develop positional players.

 

We have a player like Murton come up, and we purposely block him because we don't want to give him the opportunity to play anywhere. Sure he's not the best defensive player and would make a much better DH, but the man has hit every time he's been given a shot.

 

Now we have Felix Pie, and already we've signed someone to take ABs away from him. For cripes sakes, let the kid play. We have 3 players with 40 HR potential in our lineup, a Japan league MVP, a ROY favorite, and a super-utility player that many people dubbed our X-factor last year. We can't find 550 ABs for your top prospect 4 years in a row?

 

I understand we've been burned when we let players play (CPatt, Cedeno), but geez at some point you gotta let people play.

Murton was sort of collateral damage from the Soriano signing. The Cubs wanted/needed to make a big splash after the disaster of 2006, and it just so happened that the best available FA that year (Soriano) plays the only position Murton's shown himself to be competent at.

 

Under ideal circumstances, the best available FA that year would've been a SS or a 2B or even a RF, and Murton would've been able to remain the everyday LF -- and I bet the Cubs would agree with that. (Next best outcome would be for Murton to display an ability to play a passable RF... he hasn't, at least not in Lou's eyes.) Unfortunately those weren't the circumstances, and so here we are... not by design so much as by coincidence.

 

Coincidence? No, we're here b/c our GM is terrible at building a baseball team.

Let's focus on the topic at hand please.

 

Would Hendry have built a better baseball team if he had installed Murton in LF and passed on Soriano?

 

How about if he had installed Murton in RF and passed on Fukudome?

 

Which of those two guys is Murton better than?

 

Recall that since the Soriano signing, the Cubs have made efforts to get Murton regular PT. First Soriano did not work out in CF, necessitating a return to LF; then Murton did not work out in RF because of his defensive shortcomings (real or perceived).

What? Signing Cliff Floyd is not what I call making every effort to get Murton regular playing time. It wasn't Murton's defense that kept him out of RF, it was Floyd.

[Roast]

What? Signing Cliff Floyd is not what I call making every effort to get Murton regular playing time. It wasn't Murton's defense that kept him out of RF, it was Floyd.

Honestly.

 

If defense is what the cubs were worried about Floyd should have never ever ever EVER played. He had the range of a coat rack with a glove hanging on it.

[Tyrant]

is there anyone who truly doubts he could be a starting major league outfielder?

 

Not for a championship-caliber team.

I'm not going to go to the trouble of finding the stats because it's not worth my time, but that's just plain wrong.

 

Why?

 

He's a poor defender who doesn't hit right-handed pitching very well. He's a fine platoon guy or fourth OF, but no good team should want him getting 600 at bats.

[MADD_DOG_31]

Now we can trade Murton for pennies on the dollar!

 

Hooray!

 

There is a reason we havent traded Murton yet....nobody wants a punchin-judy hitting left fielder

[Post Count Padder]

Dumb.

[Schwarber Fan]

TEMPE, Ariz. (AP) -The Chicago Cubs released Alex Cintron on Wednesday, leaving Ronny Cedeno and Mike Fontenot as the likely backup infielders.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/wires/03/26/2010.ap.bbn.cubs.moves.0248/

[Flames24Rulz]

Whatever will we do without Murton's .800 OPS in our lineup?

 

He's nice, cheap, filler, for anything someone gets hurt.

 

Where the hell is he supposed to play in this lineup? I'd rather stick him in Iowa n case Fukudome or Soriano go down again and we need a replacement for a month than trade him just because he's not going to start.

 

Yep, I agree with you. It's better to just get him AB's every day than just sitting him on the bench and playing him once every seven games or so.

 

Provided he's not traded, he'll be a pretty nice fallback option if one of the other OF's goes down.

[Elrhino]

is there anyone who truly doubts he could be a starting major league outfielder?

 

Evidently every front office guy in baseball. Hendry has been dangling him all offseason, and no one seems to be in any hurry to take him off his hands.

[davearm2]

This is one of the big reasons the Cubs can't develop positional players.

 

We have a player like Murton come up, and we purposely block him because we don't want to give him the opportunity to play anywhere. Sure he's not the best defensive player and would make a much better DH, but the man has hit every time he's been given a shot.

 

Now we have Felix Pie, and already we've signed someone to take ABs away from him. For cripes sakes, let the kid play. We have 3 players with 40 HR potential in our lineup, a Japan league MVP, a ROY favorite, and a super-utility player that many people dubbed our X-factor last year. We can't find 550 ABs for your top prospect 4 years in a row?

 

I understand we've been burned when we let players play (CPatt, Cedeno), but geez at some point you gotta let people play.

Murton was sort of collateral damage from the Soriano signing. The Cubs wanted/needed to make a big splash after the disaster of 2006, and it just so happened that the best available FA that year (Soriano) plays the only position Murton's shown himself to be competent at.

 

Under ideal circumstances, the best available FA that year would've been a SS or a 2B or even a RF, and Murton would've been able to remain the everyday LF -- and I bet the Cubs would agree with that. (Next best outcome would be for Murton to display an ability to play a passable RF... he hasn't, at least not in Lou's eyes.) Unfortunately those weren't the circumstances, and so here we are... not by design so much as by coincidence.

 

Coincidence? No, we're here b/c our GM is terrible at building a baseball team.

Let's focus on the topic at hand please.

 

Would Hendry have built a better baseball team if he had installed Murton in LF and passed on Soriano?

 

How about if he had installed Murton in RF and passed on Fukudome?

 

Which of those two guys is Murton better than?

 

Recall that since the Soriano signing, the Cubs have made efforts to get Murton regular PT. First Soriano did not work out in CF, necessitating a return to LF; then Murton did not work out in RF because of his defensive shortcomings (real or perceived).

 

So am I to ignore all of your comments because I'm focusing on the topic at hand or did you mean "focus on the topic at hand...after I get my arguments in."

 

Either way, Murton's not better than Soriano or Fukudome, but that's not really the point. Jim has done a terrible job of building a baseball team. Signing Soriano is just one example of this. Sending Murton down so you can carry 12 pitchers in April and carry Mike freaking Fontenot is just the latest example.

Matt Murton is one topic.

 

"Our GM is terrible" is a completely different topic.

 

Murton's a good player, and I really like him. But he's not the kind of player that prevents a team from pursuing an elite, impact FA like Soriano. Murton's fate with the Cubs has been sealed since the day Soriano signed. Ill-fated attempts to play both guys out of position (Soriano in CF, Murton in RF) couldn't prevent the inevitable.

 

That's not a reflection on Hendry, that's just the way things are. UNLESS you want to take the opposite position, namely that Hendry shouldn't have signed Soriano because he already had Murton to play LF.

 

The problem there is that you've already admitted that Murton's not better than Soriano, so it kinda blows a hole in your "terrible job of building a baseball team" rant to argue that a better idea would be to use a lesser player over a superior one. That's not the way to win more games.

 

How are Hendry's signings not a reflection on Hendry? That's asinine. He signed a 30+ LF to a huge contract when he had an adequate player in LF that was cheap. And Soriano's not elite. If he could play 2B, fine, but in LF, he's not a guy you spend over $15m a year for.

 

And you clearly didn't read my response or it went right over your head. Soriano's the better player, but Hendry shouldn't have signed him. Since he signed him, certainly he has to play over Murton, but that's not the point. The point is Hendry's bad a building a baseball team. He overspends for a player that blocks a good source of cheap production - which is mismanagement of limited resources. As I said, Soriano is but one example. If Hendry had done a better job of building this team and managing his resources and assets, he wouldn't have felt compelled to spend whatever it took to get Soriano to save his job. But he did, so here we are. Sending down a cheap, 26-year-old LF that would be a perfect complimentary player.

 

But that's not Hendry's fault. He's just the GM. He can't possibly be responsible for managing the roster and resources.

Look this is very simple. The team you propose, with Murton in LF and no Soriano, would win fewer games than the one Hendry's built, with Soriano in LF and Murton in limbo.

 

In fact your team likely doesn't make the playoffs last year... the team Hendry built so poorly did make the playoffs.

 

And what's amusing is, you even admit as much, but yet still tear into Hendry.

 

As I said, under ideal circumstances, there would be room for both Soriano and Murton. But if it's one or the other (and it clearly is), well, sorry Matt.

[jersey cubs fan]

Look this is very simple. The team you propose, with Murton in LF and no Soriano, would win fewer games than the one Hendry's built, with Soriano in LF and Murton in limbo..

 

What you're doing is excusing all of Hendry's past mistakes by saying he had to get Soriano. Hendry never had to get Soriano. This should have been a 90-win team years ago. If Hendry was any good at seeing the value of his assets, and could plan beyond today, he wouldn't have been in the position he was in when he grossly overpaid for Soriano. He could have easily fit Murton into a championship caliber team a long time ago if he wasn't just so incredibly incompetent.

 

Instead, he throws good money after bad by continually forcing himself to cover up his own mistakes with bigger and more expensive ones.

[Tyrant]

Look this is very simple. The team you propose, with Murton in LF and no Soriano, would win fewer games than the one Hendry's built, with Soriano in LF and Murton in limbo..

 

What you're doing is excusing all of Hendry's past mistakes by saying he had to get Soriano. Hendry never had to get Soriano. This should have been a 90-win team years ago. If Hendry was any good at seeing the value of his assets, and could plan beyond today, he wouldn't have been in the position he was in when he grossly overpaid for Soriano. He could have easily fit Murton into a championship caliber team a long time ago if he wasn't just so incredibly incompetent.

 

Instead, he throws good money after bad by continually forcing himself to cover up his own mistakes with bigger and more expensive ones.

 

If it were up to the people on this board, the Cubs would have a $48 payroll.

[jersey cubs fan]

Look this is very simple. The team you propose, with Murton in LF and no Soriano, would win fewer games than the one Hendry's built, with Soriano in LF and Murton in limbo..

 

What you're doing is excusing all of Hendry's past mistakes by saying he had to get Soriano. Hendry never had to get Soriano. This should have been a 90-win team years ago. If Hendry was any good at seeing the value of his assets, and could plan beyond today, he wouldn't have been in the position he was in when he grossly overpaid for Soriano. He could have easily fit Murton into a championship caliber team a long time ago if he wasn't just so incredibly incompetent.

 

Instead, he throws good money after bad by continually forcing himself to cover up his own mistakes with bigger and more expensive ones.

 

If it were up to the people on this board, the Cubs would have something more than a barely above .500 record during the Hendry era.

 

It's hysterical how accepting of failure some fans on this board are.

 

It's not the high cost that bothers smart people, it's the very inefficient use of that high cost that results in nothing but mediocrity that bothers smart people.