Why Does Everyone Hate Pie?

[KingCubsFan]

Over the past few months, the groupthink on this board has turned on Pie, by far our best young position player prospect, for no apparent reason. At one point, people even wanted Jacque Jones playing over him. I really don't understand all the hate for Pie, and here are some points that I think get overlooked when people propose trading him for crap:

1. He's only 22 years old and has shown continuous improvement as he's progressed through the minors. His walk rate continues to rise, and his strikeouts continue to decline. Last year, he had a .973 OPS in AAA, and for his minor league career, he has a .826 OPS (keep in mind he's always been young for his league). If he was in someone else's organization (the A's perhaps?), I'm guessing his accomplishments would be more widely appreciated.

2. Aside from his statistical success, he's widely seen as a five tool prospect with projectable tools and is the type of athlete that can win Gold Gloves in CF. Truthfully, this fact isn't really overlooked by anyone, as we all witnessed his defense in Chicago last year.

3. I read people saying we shouldn't trade Rich Hill for Erik Bedard straight up, and Soto should be untouchable, and then I remember that Pie had a higher OPS in AAA at a younger age than Soto, and Hill is 28 years old. Some people might say, "Soto fills a position of need" or "Hill will come cheaply for the next few years and is an above average starting pitcher." This is true, but both of these rationales can also apply to Felix. People have seizures over Theriot at SS, yet don't have a problem with Scrappy Sam Fuld and injury-prone, steroid machine Mike Cameron patrolling center if that means we can get Khalil Greene to play SS. Put Pie in CF, give him a few months to adjust, and you'll have a young, cheap, above average CF for the next few years.

4. Fukudome is NOT a CF. He came here because he wanted to play RF, and the Cubs said he could play RF. So before anyone proposes trading Pie and putting Fukudome in CF and Murton in RF, realize that, at this point, you might as well be proposing shifting Lee to second base.

5. This point will probably be mocked and laughed at even more than the other ones, since we here at Northside Baseball like to think baseball is played in a vacuum without any human emotion. However, it should be noted that Felix Pie has won at every level in the minors, and the Cubs had a better record when he was playing last year. Von Joshua once said he could be the Michael Jordan of baseball with his leadership skills. While these types of things should never be the sole reason to keep a prospect, they should be a consideration when you have the type of skill set Pie possesses.

[Sammy Sofa]

and here are some points that I think get overlooked when people propose trading him for crap

 

Crap? Like who?

[SouthSideRyan]

I'm personally still a big Pie fan, and don't want him dealt unless we get something big in return. TT's been driving his bandwagon since Felix was in A ball.

 

I don't think anyone's really falling in love with Sam Fuld. Hendry was pretty widely mocked around here for declaring Fuld as untouchable.

[CubinNY]

First, let's dispense with the groupthink stuff.

 

There are a few people who are not sold on Pie. There are others who like him but at the same time think he has good trade value. There are others who think he shouldn't be traded.

 

It all depends on who he is traded for should he be traded.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I like Felix a whole bunch, and I want him given every opportunity to succeed. That said, I'd deal him in a heartbeat for the right pieces. The same could be said for anyone in the system. If anyone advocates trading Felix over Hill or Soto it's because it would be a whole lot easier to replace Pie. Hill is a budding #2 starter, and Soto looks to be an above average catcher both offensively and defensively.

[MustangMike]

I don't hate pie, but if he returns a bedard i'd be fine with that. Add him to Z and Lilly along with HIll and that's a rotation I feel good about. I'm interested in Pie's growth, but it would be nice to see the cubs "sell high" for once.

[rocket]

stopped reading after i reached the word "groupthink".

[MPrior]

I've never been too high on Pie, but I still think you're overstating the case here with the groupthink and trading Pie for crap stuff. I have significant doubts as to whether Pie will succeed much at the Major League level (and no, this is not due to his brief time in the majors this past season; it has more to do with his poor plate discipline and his inability to hit lefties), but I still would only trade him for a good return - i.e., a significant player who would help our team out, like Greene, or Bedard. I would not include him in any trade for Roberts, for example. Secondly, despite my misgivings, I still have high hopes for the guy, and if he's still in the organization when 2008 rolls around, I absolutely think we ought to start him in CF and stick him there for at least a while (the one possible exception being when there's a tough lefty on the mound).

[jersey cubs fan]

Over the past few months, the groupthink on this board has turned on Pie, by far our best young position player prospect, for no apparent reason. At one point, people even wanted Jacque Jones playing over him. I really don't understand all the hate for Pie, and here are some points that I think get overlooked when people propose trading him for crap: 1. He's only 22 years old and has shown continuous improvement as he's progressed through the minors. His walk rate continues to rise, and his strikeouts continue to decline. Last year, he had a .973 OPS in AAA, and for his minor league career, he has a .826 OPS (keep in mind he's always been young for his league). If he was in someone else's organization (the A's perhaps?), I'm guessing his accomplishments would be more widely appreciated.

2. Aside from his statistical success, he's widely seen as a five tool prospect with projectable tools and is the type of athlete that can win Gold Gloves in CF. Truthfully, this fact isn't really overlooked by anyone, as we all witnessed his defense in Chicago last year.

3. I read people saying we shouldn't trade Rich Hill for Erik Bedard straight up, and Soto should be untouchable, and then I remember that Pie had a higher OPS in AAA at a younger age than Soto, and Hill is 28 years old. Some people might say, "Soto fills a position of need" or "Hill will come cheaply for the next few years and is an above average starting pitcher." This is true, but both of these rationales can also apply to Felix. People have seizures over Theriot at SS, yet don't have a problem with Scrappy Sam Fuld and injury-prone, steroid machine Mike Cameron patrolling center if that means we can get Khalil Greene to play SS. Put Pie in CF, give him a few months to adjust, and you'll have a young, cheap, above average CF for the next few years.

4. Fukudome is NOT a CF. He came here because he wanted to play RF, and the Cubs said he could play RF. So before anyone proposes trading Pie and putting Fukudome in CF and Murton in RF, realize that, at this point, you might as well be proposing shifting Lee to second base.

5. This point will probably be mocked and laughed at even more than the other ones, since we here at Northside Baseball like to think baseball is played in a vacuum without any human emotion. However, it should be noted that Felix Pie has won at every level in the minors, and the Cubs had a better record when he was playing last year. Von Joshua once said he could be the Michael Jordan of baseball with his leadership skills. While these types of things should never be the sole reason to keep a prospect, they should be a consideration when you have the type of skill set Pie possesses.

 

The opinion on Pie is widely varied.

 

There may be 2-3 people whose dislike for Pie as a prospect can come anywhere close to hate.

 

If anybody has proposed trading him for crap, I haven't seen it. And if you believe that the names that have been mentioned are crap, then perhaps you are as guilty as anybody who hates Pie of unfairly hating on those players.

 

While those rates may have improved, the numbers themselves are still bad. His OPS got good, but his walk rate and strikeout rate, red flags for a prospect in my opinion, did not suddenly become good.

 

What's the point of listing Hill's age?

 

I think the vast majority would have a problem with Fuld in CF.

 

I'm not sure sure Pie will be above average within the next couple months or for the next couple years. He's got significant red flags that have to cause concern in the short and long run. Regardless, even if he does turn out reaching his potential, his age alone is enough to cause doubts for that to happen this year.

 

Lee at 2nd is in no way shape or form similar to Fukudome in CF.

 

Baseball in a vacuum is just a meaningless empty phrase. There have been an extraordinary number of Cubs prospects who have won at multiple levels of the minors, and it would be a mistake to think that has provided any value whatsoever to their major league success. None of what you wrote in paragraph 5 should be given any consideration when considering what to do with Felix Pie this year.

Edited December 19, 2007 by jersey cubs fan

[UMFan83]

I like Pie, but I am not saying why

 

/Meph

[CubColtPacer]

Over the past few months, the groupthink on this board has turned on Pie, by far our best young position player prospect, for no apparent reason. At one point, people even wanted Jacque Jones playing over him. I really don't understand all the hate for Pie, and here are some points that I think get overlooked when people propose trading him for crap:

1. He's only 22 years old and has shown continuous improvement as he's progressed through the minors. His walk rate continues to rise, and his strikeouts continue to decline. Last year, he had a .973 OPS in AAA, and for his minor league career, he has a .826 OPS (keep in mind he's always been young for his league). If he was in someone else's organization (the A's perhaps?), I'm guessing his accomplishments would be more widely appreciated.

2. Aside from his statistical success, he's widely seen as a five tool prospect with projectable tools and is the type of athlete that can win Gold Gloves in CF. Truthfully, this fact isn't really overlooked by anyone, as we all witnessed his defense in Chicago last year.

3. I read people saying we shouldn't trade Rich Hill for Erik Bedard straight up, and Soto should be untouchable, and then I remember that Pie had a higher OPS in AAA at a younger age than Soto, and Hill is 28 years old. Some people might say, "Soto fills a position of need" or "Hill will come cheaply for the next few years and is an above average starting pitcher." This is true, but both of these rationales can also apply to Felix. People have seizures over Theriot at SS, yet don't have a problem with Scrappy Sam Fuld and injury-prone, steroid machine Mike Cameron patrolling center if that means we can get Khalil Greene to play SS. Put Pie in CF, give him a few months to adjust, and you'll have a young, cheap, above average CF for the next few years.

4. Fukudome is NOT a CF. He came here because he wanted to play RF, and the Cubs said he could play RF. So before anyone proposes trading Pie and putting Fukudome in CF and Murton in RF, realize that, at this point, you might as well be proposing shifting Lee to second base.

5. This point will probably be mocked and laughed at even more than the other ones, since we here at Northside Baseball like to think baseball is played in a vacuum without any human emotion. However, it should be noted that Felix Pie has won at every level in the minors, and the Cubs had a better record when he was playing last year. Von Joshua once said he could be the Michael Jordan of baseball with his leadership skills. While these types of things should never be the sole reason to keep a prospect, they should be a consideration when you have the type of skill set Pie possesses.

 

 

I think, but am not positive, that his K rate and BB rate took a step backward in 2007. I know he took walks less frequently.

 

 

Pie's walk rate in 2006 (AAA): 1 BB per 12.15 AB's

Pie's walk rate in 2007 (AAA): 1 BB per 12.05 AB's

Pie's walk rate in 2007 (MLB): 1 BB per 12.64 AB's

 

Pie's K rate in 2006 (AAA): 1 K per 4.43 AB's

Pie's K rate in 2007 (AAA): 1 K per 5.72 AB's

Pie's K rate in 2007 (MLB): 1 K per 4.12 AB's

 

So walk rate basically stayed the same in AAA with a very slight improvement and K rate improved quite a bit. His MLB numbers are down for both, but that's to be expected.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

stopped reading after i reached the word "groupthink".

 

I'd just quote this post, but I think that might qualify as "groupthink."

 

By the way, have I mentioned that the next groupthink meeting is for this Thursday at 4:00.

[jersey cubs fan]

stopped reading after i reached the word "groupthink".

 

I'd just quote this post, but I think that might qualify as "groupthink."

 

By the way, have I mentioned that the next groupthink meeting is for this Thursday at 4:00.

 

I will have to attend telepathically, as usual.

[jersey cubs fan]

Pie's walk rate in 2006 (AAA): 1 BB per 12.15 AB's

Pie's walk rate in 2007 (AAA): 1 BB per 12.05 AB's

Pie's walk rate in 2007 (MLB): 1 BB per 12.64 AB's

 

Pie's K rate in 2006 (AAA): 1 K per 4.43 AB's

Pie's K rate in 2007 (AAA): 1 K per 5.72 AB's

Pie's K rate in 2007 (MLB): 1 K per 4.12 AB's

 

So walk rate basically stayed the same in AAA with a very slight improvement and K rate improved quite a bit. His MLB numbers are down for both, but that's to be expected.

 

I must have been remembering 2007 totals with AAA and majors combined. I will revise that part of my statement to say that while they may have improved, they are still awful numbers.

[Jon]

I'm a bit skeptical about Pie being able to reach his ceiling, but the real negative for me is my lack of faith regarding the Cubs' ability to develop him at the big league level. He's not untouchable for that reason alone.

[minnesotacubsfan]

I love pie, cherry pie, blackberry pie, especially raspberry pie.

 

I dont have stats to back it up tho...

[chicago chop]

Over the past few months, the groupthink on this board has turned on Pie, by far our best young position player prospect, for no apparent reason. At one point, people even wanted Jacque Jones playing over him. I really don't understand all the hate for Pie, and here are some points that I think get overlooked when people propose trading him for crap:

1. He's only 22 years old and has shown continuous improvement as he's progressed through the minors. His walk rate continues to rise, and his strikeouts continue to decline. Last year, he had a .973 OPS in AAA, and for his minor league career, he has a .826 OPS (keep in mind he's always been young for his league). If he was in someone else's organization (the A's perhaps?), I'm guessing his accomplishments would be more widely appreciated.

2. Aside from his statistical success, he's widely seen as a five tool prospect with projectable tools and is the type of athlete that can win Gold Gloves in CF. Truthfully, this fact isn't really overlooked by anyone, as we all witnessed his defense in Chicago last year.

3. I read people saying we shouldn't trade Rich Hill for Erik Bedard straight up, and Soto should be untouchable, and then I remember that Pie had a higher OPS in AAA at a younger age than Soto, and Hill is 28 years old. Some people might say, "Soto fills a position of need" or "Hill will come cheaply for the next few years and is an above average starting pitcher." This is true, but both of these rationales can also apply to Felix. People have seizures over Theriot at SS, yet don't have a problem with Scrappy Sam Fuld and injury-prone, steroid machine Mike Cameron patrolling center if that means we can get Khalil Greene to play SS. Put Pie in CF, give him a few months to adjust, and you'll have a young, cheap, above average CF for the next few years.

4. Fukudome is NOT a CF. He came here because he wanted to play RF, and the Cubs said he could play RF. So before anyone proposes trading Pie and putting Fukudome in CF and Murton in RF, realize that, at this point, you might as well be proposing shifting Lee to second base.

5. This point will probably be mocked and laughed at even more than the other ones, since we here at Northside Baseball like to think baseball is played in a vacuum without any human emotion. However, it should be noted that Felix Pie has won at every level in the minors, and the Cubs had a better record when he was playing last year. Von Joshua once said he could be the Michael Jordan of baseball with his leadership skills. While these types of things should never be the sole reason to keep a prospect, they should be a consideration when you have the type of skill set Pie possesses.

 

In my humble opinion, the main reason people are down on Pie is because his predessor as top OF prospect, CPatt, fell flat on his face.....Everyone saw Patterson's metoric rise and eventual downfall, so I'm sure most are worried Felix is headed towards the same path.

 

It may be safer, for some, to trade him now while he has good market value rather then risk holding on to him and get nothing just like what happened with Patterson.....

 

Thoughts?

[jersey cubs fan]

In my humble opinion, the main reason people are down on Pie is because his predessor as top OF prospect, CPatt, fell flat on his face.....Everyone saw Patterson's metoric rise and eventual downfall, so I'm sure most are worried Felix is headed towards the same path.

 

It may be safer, for some, to trade him now while he has good market value rather then risk holding on to him and get nothing just like what happened with Patterson.....

 

Thoughts?

 

That may be the main reason for most who are down on him. There's also the issue that he strikes out a ton and doesn't walk much, two very big red flags when evaluating a prospect. So, even if Corey never existed, I'm sure there would be many with doubts. There's also the fact that a certain part of the crowd views all prospects as suspects first and foremost.

[chicago chop]

In my humble opinion, the main reason people are down on Pie is because his predessor as top OF prospect, CPatt, fell flat on his face.....Everyone saw Patterson's metoric rise and eventual downfall, so I'm sure most are worried Felix is headed towards the same path.

 

It may be safer, for some, to trade him now while he has good market value rather then risk holding on to him and get nothing just like what happened with Patterson.....

 

Thoughts?

 

That may be the main reason for most who are down on him. There's also the issue that he strikes out a ton and doesn't walk much, two very big red flags when evaluating a prospect. So, even if Corey never existed, I'm sure there would be many with doubts. There's also the fact that a certain part of the crowd views all prospects as suspects first and foremost.

 

I agree that even if Corey didn't come before him there would be folks that would be down on Felix, based on his red flags (Strikeout/Walk Rates), but that was/are the same issues Corey had so even though Felix is still young and could learn to get his rates better many don't want to risk giving him that chance.

[KingCubsFan]

In my humble opinion, the main reason people are down on Pie is because his predessor as top OF prospect, CPatt, fell flat on his face.....Everyone saw Patterson's metoric rise and eventual downfall, so I'm sure most are worried Felix is headed towards the same path.

 

It may be safer, for some, to trade him now while he has good market value rather then risk holding on to him and get nothing just like what happened with Patterson.....

 

Thoughts?

 

That may be the main reason for most who are down on him. There's also the issue that he strikes out a ton and doesn't walk much, two very big red flags when evaluating a prospect. So, even if Corey never existed, I'm sure there would be many with doubts. There's also the fact that a certain part of the crowd views all prospects as suspects first and foremost.

I think this is one of the big reasons as well. Obviously, the K/BB ratios are alarming, but that's why I pointed out the improvement. Are there any other red flags? Is it his stint in the majors last year? I admit I might have exaggerated the "trading for crap" line, but I still don't understand why people are willing to trade Pie for something good when Soto should be untouchable. Neither of them are easily replaceable long-term.

[imb]

i hate him because meph told me to

[jersey cubs fan]

In my humble opinion, the main reason people are down on Pie is because his predessor as top OF prospect, CPatt, fell flat on his face.....Everyone saw Patterson's metoric rise and eventual downfall, so I'm sure most are worried Felix is headed towards the same path.

 

It may be safer, for some, to trade him now while he has good market value rather then risk holding on to him and get nothing just like what happened with Patterson.....

 

Thoughts?

 

That may be the main reason for most who are down on him. There's also the issue that he strikes out a ton and doesn't walk much, two very big red flags when evaluating a prospect. So, even if Corey never existed, I'm sure there would be many with doubts. There's also the fact that a certain part of the crowd views all prospects as suspects first and foremost.

I think this is one of the big reasons as well. Obviously, the K/BB ratios are alarming, but that's why I pointed out the improvement. Are there any other red flags? Is it his stint in the majors last year? I admit I might have exaggerated the "trading for crap" line, but I still don't understand why people are willing to trade Pie for something good when Soto should be untouchable. Neither of them are easily replaceable long-term.

 

There are some names that can be thrown into the CF mix in the near and intermediate term. Fukudome, Eric Patterson, Tyler Colvin, etc. If Soto gets traded, the Cubs will be left with Blanco and whatever piece of garbage Hendry finds off the scrap heap, and then hope to heck that Donaldson develops quickly. And there are questions about whether he can stick at C in the first place.

 

I think many people believe that while Colvin may have a very limited upside, he's also a safe bet to reach it, and could come in and provide average production very shortly. He's a big reason why some view Pie as more expendable. And there are no questions about his ability to stick at the position.

[CarolinaCubFan]

Cpatt still breaks my heart.

 

When Tim started this site, his minor league information was the first time I'd really paid any attention to the farm system. Felix Pie was being tauted as 5 tool, but very RAW. Finally, he's progressed to the big show. He wasn't a burner, but has had success in all levels of the minor leagues. I've waited a long time for Pie to get here, I want to see him in the lineup everyday. Encourage and teach him through a couple of slumps and lets see if he's going to be our very own Carlos Beltran - I've dreamed it for 4 years, don't burst my bubble.

 

He's been young for every level. I still believe he has the chance to be a star CF, but he's still young and raw.

 

My biggest complaint, someone buy the guy some athletic briefs or something. If I have to see him adjust his junk 30 times in 3 pitches again this season, I'm gonna go insane.

[sethuel1]

stopped reading after i reached the word "groupthink".

don't worry. we all did.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

stopped reading after i reached the word "groupthink".

 

I'd just quote this post, but I think that might qualify as "groupthink."

 

By the way, have I mentioned that the next groupthink meeting is for this Thursday at 4:00.

I can't make it -- just let me know if I should be changing the way I think later