MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[wrigley23]

he had the second highest ops of his career? so...what's your point? he also had an obp 40 pts less than roberts & his steals have dropped from 40 some to less than 20 vs roberts' 50. plus...he is a more valuable as an rbi-producer & we happen to be one short in this lineup. So you don't think Dave Kaplan, Mike Murphy, Steve Stone, Len Kasper, Paul Sullivan, etc....talk to Jim Hendry, Lou Piniella? You think ironically, they just pull this out of their arse? Wow.

[RedFlash]

dexter...you just made a personal attack & that is wrong. also, the comments about your head hurting when I post. that's ridiculous. you must be taking this too seriously then. I don't back up my opinions w/ a ton of stats because quite frankly...i don't have time & I don't care all that much. I'm not a professional message board poster & don't feel message boards are rocket science. they are for opinions & if they are not frought w/ analytical analysis...then so be it. I didn't realize it was a prereq & if it is...then i'm on the wrong board.

 

He's attack the post, not you. When you read just about the same thing, rephrased, it tends to give people headaches.

 

The bottomline is....we shouldn't be "looking" for a leadoff hitter, we should be "looking" for the players who can get on base at atleast a solid amount of time (To me that's .350 or higher). Leadoff hitter is a myth, and that therelies the problem? You (and the Cubs) believe in the myth that is the leadoff hitter, and people are trying to tell you, there is NO SUCH THING as a leadoff hitter. If the guy can get on base at a .350 or higher clip, IDC if he is slower then Sid Bream stuck in mud.....more players on base, means more opportunity to score, which means it gives the Cubs a better chance to win.

 

So again, dexter isn't attacking you, he's attack this silly idea that every team needs a "leadoff hitter." I'd prefer Todd Walker over Juan Pierre, due to the fact that Walker had a higher OBP.

[UK1679666180]

It was Soriano's 4th highest EqA in his 8th full season. I doubt the Cubs are getting Roberts, too many hurdles between them and the O's. I assume Soriano will hit leadoff and Theriot 2nd with Fukudome 5th.

 

I expect the Cubs to get Byrd and call it an off-season.

[wrigley23]

there is such a thing as a leadoff hitter as i see him lead off each & every game & after innings where the pitcher makes the last out. they are the catalyst...one who is asked to work counts, get on base, & score the go ahead run. teams that score first tend to win more than they lose. having an extra guy on base in at least the first inning followed by an extra power bat hitting behind him is a huge boost to the offense & makes the pitcher labor more in the first inning.

[17 Seconds]

he had the second highest ops of his career? so...what's your point? he also had an obp 40 pts less than roberts & his steals have dropped from 40 some to less than 20 vs roberts' 50. plus...he is a more valuable as an rbi-producer & we happen to be one short in this lineup. So you don't think Dave Kaplan, Mike Murphy, Steve Stone, Len Kasper, Paul Sullivan, etc....talk to Jim Hendry, Lou Piniella? You think ironically, they just pull this out of their arse? Wow.

 

Oh god. Why do you always resort to "well, these guys said so" when trying to defend your statements? Oh, because you can't back up your claims on your own, that's why. Why don't you think for yourself instead of copping out? I could name drop plenty of guys that agree with me too, but I won't. You know why? Because I can think for myself. Anyways, most of those guys you named aren't exactly the most reputable baseball people. Using guys like Mike Murphy, Jim Sullivan, and Jim Hendry to help validate your argument? Yikes. That honestly hurts your argument. Seriously.

 

he also had an obp 40 pts less than roberts & his steals have dropped from 40 some to less than 20 vs roberts' 50. plus

 

So why can't Roberts just bat 2nd, where his speed and OBP will be utilized just as well? Oh, because "he's a leadoff hitter", that's why. We can't possibly bat him anywhere other than leadoff, for that would be blashpemy! The world would end!

 

 

he is a more valuable as an rbi-producer

 

No, he's most valuable where he performs the best. I'm not under the impression that a cheap 100 rbi's is worth having him go .260/.315/.490 with an enormous amout on LOB. Not at all.

 

What's funny is that if he's moved down, you'll be one of the people complaining about him when June rolls around and he's not performing, even though he'll have those RBI's you're so desperately seeking.

[17 Seconds]

Oh and by the way, Roberts' career obp is only 10 points higher than Soriano's career OBP while batting leadoff.

[wrigley23]

i could care less about his career obp. i care about what it has been recently..& recently...it has been 40 pts worse. His legs are not what they were. Look at his net steals rate. look at his injury track record the last few yrs. He has grown out of the leadoff spot & down in the order.

[17 Seconds]

i could care less about his career obp. i care about what it has been recently..& recently...it has been 40 pts worse. His legs are not what they were. Look at his net steals rate. look at his injury track record the last few yrs. He has grown out of the leadoff spot & down in the order.

 

He has an obp of .347 in 2006. That's not "recent"?

 

Anyways, that's not the point. I don't care about Roberts when deiciding where to put Soriano. I also don't care about his declining speed. That's just another overemphasized point for you to argue. The most important thing is his bat, and where it performs the best. Just stop with this nonsense. You're not going to convince anybody that any of these garbage leadoff theories are more important than hitting.

 

Also, you still haven't explained to me why those characteristics of Roberts that you love so much can't also be utilied in the 2 hole.

Edited February 17, 2008 by 17 Seconds

[17 Seconds]

i could care less about his career obp. i care about what it has been recently..& recently...it has been 40 pts worse. His legs are not what they were. Look at his net steals rate. look at his injury track record the last few yrs. He has grown out of the leadoff spot & down in the order.

 

He has an obp of .347 in 2006. That's not "recent"?

 

Anyways, that's not the point. I don't care about Roberts when deiciding where to put Soriano. I also don't care about his declining speed. That's just another overemphasized point for you to argue. The most important thing is his bat, and where it performs the best. Just stop with this nonsense. You're not going to convince anybody that any of these garbage leadoff theories are more important than hitting.

[RedFlash]

there is such a thing as a leadoff hitter as i see him lead off each & every game & after innings where the pitcher makes the last out. they are the catalyst...one who is asked to work counts, get on base, & score the go ahead run. teams that score first tend to win more than they lose. having an extra guy on base in at least the first inning followed by an extra power bat hitting behind him is a huge boost to the offense & makes the pitcher labor more in the first inning.

 

Who postion on the field is designated "leadoff?" Leadoff is a term, just like cleanup is a term. You can leadoff the game, or leadoff innings. You don't hear an announcer say, "and no batting and playing leadoff it's Brian Roberts." No you'd hear, "now batting leadoff, and playing 2b....Brian Roberts." Leadoff is simply a terms used to describe when a player is hitting in the lineup.For instance you realize, if Felix Pie starts off an inning, let's say th 5th inning, he would be consider a "leadoff hitter?" Besides....Roberts would "leadoff" once a game, and MAYBE two times a game, if that. Most of the time, Roberts would be like the 2nd hitter, or perhaps the hitter in the hole.

 

Like the lochness montster, Bigfoot, and Tyrus Thomas's jumpshot, the leadoff hitter is a myth. An Urban legend.

 

Besides what's wrong with hitting DeRosa first---outside of the speed factor?

 

 

So the theory that the Cubs need a "leadoff hitter" is clearly just that, a theory. What the Cubs need, regardless of what term you used to apply to them, is guys who can get on base.

[CUBZ99]

So do you guys think that the Cubs will pick up a "true" leadoff hitter before the season starts?

[17 Seconds]

So do you guys think that the Cubs will pick up a "true" leadoff hitter before the season starts?

 

Please stop.

[cbbryan]

So do you guys think that the Cubs will pick up a "true" leadoff hitter before the season starts?

 

I think Hendry's more focused on finding an ideal #7 hitter right now. He may just not have time to address all the dire needs.

[RynoHawk23]

Dex & Wrigley, deep breaths please.

 

First remember, you guys are on the same side. You are both Cubs fans. Secondly there are valid points on both sides, so don't belittle each other to get your points across. You are both not completely right or wrong. This is not Hannity and Combs - thank god. And this is a message board, stating your opinion is the point, no matter how many times. And its almost ridiculous to even be arguing that point in this thread that has so much garbage. At least you two are arguing about the topic to some degree.

 

Brian Roberts is a top of the order force. I think both of you would agree on that point. Soriano is a force, but does have a tendency to need comfort - a la struggling when playing in center and blossoming once back in left field. So there probably is something to the point that he needs to be in the lead off spot because he has accelled in that spot and has a confidence level there. Brian Roberts would be a solid choice to bat second because he would still be at the top of the lineup and solve our "right handedness" issues as well - while still having the versatility of switch hitting. However, it would be interesting to see Roberts and Fukudome at the top with a murderer's row of Lee, Ramirez and Soriano behind them.

 

I like to see the statistics and everything, but you have to incorporate common sense as well. Its not a made up thing that Lou has hinted at dropping Soriano down if Roberts came aboard. So maybe its not the right move in your mind Dexter, but it is the possible move that will happen. If it doesn't work then I'm sure a reshuffling would happen - Lou is not adverse to doing that.

 

I think if Roberts comes aboard, finding a spot for him to hit is going to be a great problem to have, and not a detriment to the team. I don't think we can have enough great players.

[Post Count Padder]

Is it just me or has their been more arguing on this board than in previous offseasons?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Nah, we're just having different arguments this time around.

[TheGrinch]

Too much of the recent convo has actually revolved around Roberts...and it wasn't pretty. I say we go back to Indiana Jones references.

 

there is such a thing as a leadoff hitter as i see him lead off each & every game & after innings where the pitcher makes the last out. they are the catalyst...one who is asked to work counts, get on base, & score the go ahead run. teams that score first tend to win more than they lose. having an extra guy on base in at least the first inning followed by an extra power bat hitting behind him is a huge boost to the offense & makes the pitcher labor more in the first inning.

 

"He chose...poorly."

 

Dang. Even that is out of juice...Major League references anyone?

[Andy]

Is it just me or has their been more arguing on this board than in previous offseasons?

There wasn't much to argue about last offseason, to my recollection. Most of the moves Jimbo made were roundly endorsed or roundly criticized here.

[RedFlash]

Too much of the recent convo has actually revolved around Roberts...and it wasn't pretty. I say we go back to Indiana Jones references.

 

there is such a thing as a leadoff hitter as i see him lead off each & every game & after innings where the pitcher makes the last out. they are the catalyst...one who is asked to work counts, get on base, & score the go ahead run. teams that score first tend to win more than they lose. having an extra guy on base in at least the first inning followed by an extra power bat hitting behind him is a huge boost to the offense & makes the pitcher labor more in the first inning.

 

"He chose...poorly."

 

Dang. Even that is out of juice...Major League references anyone?

 

 

Scorched. Pow.

 

See if you can figure out what I AM referencing.... :lol:

[wvcbxl]

... I'm not a professional message board poster ...

 

Neither am I, but I might consider a career change.

Where do I apply?

[wrigley23]

the difference is...i haven't resorted to sophomoric personal attacks & I don't pull phrases out to pick apart. I am stating my opinion just like many on this board have. I have not posted my opinion (with or without observations or stats) any more than anyone else. It's just that those complaining about my opinion have a different one so it's convenient to pick apart mine. Again, regardless or soriano's obp last year...it was 40 pts less than Roberts'. Roberts is not an rbi-producing hitter like soriano so he is better suited to hit in front of him & would if we are fortunate enough to get him. I still find it comical that piniella who has won a world series & coached baseball his entire life, hendry who has been in baseball his whole life as a mgr or gm & has been in the playoffs twice recently, stone, etc....are discredited so much & put on the same par w/ people posting on a message board. That is probably the biggest stretch i've seen thus far.

[wrigley23]

and for the guy that says leadoff isn't a postion over & over. Neither is closer but every team has one...just like a leadoff hitter. By your analogy, we could use marquis to close, rich hill, or lieber. That is wrong. Each team designates a closer just like they do a leadoff hitter. In fact, you'll hear some gm's saying they are looking for "a #2 hitter" or a "#4 hitter". soriano hits for extra base hits. roberts is a singles hitter. it only makes sense to hit soriano behind him as a result. You see every team in the major leagues do it this way & have for years. They even follow this to a degree in the all star game. the only reason soriano led off last year is because we had no legit alternative & he preferred to lead off. He has now come off of that preference by saying he would move down if that is what the team needed & it does.

[UK1679666180]

I still find it comical that piniella who has won a world series & coached baseball his entire life, hendry who has been in baseball his whole life as a mgr or gm & has been in the playoffs twice recently, stone, etc....are discredited so much & put on the same par w/ people posting on a message board. That is probably the biggest stretch i've seen thus far

 

But, people still have the right to disagree with a move or in this case a potential move regardless of how much they have spent in the game. As I say this, I would prefer a high OBP at the top instead of Soriano.

[TruffleShuffle]

dusty baker has been involved with baseball for a long time, i guess we're not giving his baseball acumen enough credit then.

[samhainn77]

Is it just me or has their been more arguing on this board than in previous offseasons?

 

 

You're wrong! What an assinine thing to say!