MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[17 Seconds]

but on our team Soriano would be much more valuable lower in the order.

 

SORIANO IS MOST VALUABLE WHERE HE HITS THE BEST

 

I find it amazing that you jokers continue to spoew this garbage about how "Soriano is more valuable lower in the order" yet you continue to ignore that fact that all the evidence shows otherwise.

[17 Seconds]

but on our team Soriano would be much more valuable lower in the order.

 

SORIANO IS MOST VALUABLE WHERE HE HITS THE BEST

 

I find it amazing that you jokers continue to spoew this garbage about how "Soriano is more valuable lower in the order" yet you continue to ignore that fact that all the evidence shows otherwise.

 

Why doesn't Carlos Beltran bat leadoff?

 

BECAUSE BELTRAN HAS SHOWN HE CAN PERFORM WHILE BATTING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE LINEUP

 

Because the Mets are smart and actually know that different guys are suited for different spots in the order.

 

Seriously, do you realize how stupid you sound? This is getting ridiculous. Stop comparing Beltran to Soriano just because they both hit home runs.

[DeuceBaseman]

I disagree. I dont think Soriano's numbers would go down at all in the 5 hole. I dont care about how a few at bats in the 5th spot or 4th spot in his past resulted in. They were on different teams, with different guys in front of him and different guys in back of him, and different leagues. He's a major league hitter, he should be able to hit anywhere in the lineup with the same skill.

[DeuceBaseman]

Soriano had better stats in the 5th hole than the leadoff spot in both 06 and 05. Batting 3rd in 04 he didnt have any worse stats than he did leadoff. So i dont know what your talking about.

[17 Seconds]

I disagree. I dont think Soriano's numbers would go down at all in the 5 hole. I dont care about how a few at bats in the 5th spot or 4th spot in his past resulted in. They were on different teams, with different guys in front of him and different guys in back of him, and different leagues. He's a major league hitter, he should be able to hit anywhere in the lineup with the same skill.

 

First of all, I don't get what's so hard to understand about Soriano. He hits terribly with runners on, and especially with runners in scoring position. All of a his numbers, especially slugging, drop dramaticall in those situations. He's not a clutch hitter. This "his past stats batting 5th are a coincidence" garbage has to stop. Let's see, he struggles everytime guys are in risp. Where would he get most at-bats in those situations? The middle of the lineup. You don't have to look career at his statistics while batting down in the lineup to realize that he'd probably struggle there. It's really not at all hard to understand that. Really.

 

And batting 5th? Good lord. That would be a nightmare and even worse than him battting 3rd of 4th. Who is going to protect him if he bats 5th. Soto? Soriano needs protection more than anyone on this team, and possibly more than anyone in baseball. Have you even watched Soriano play? If Soriano is batting 5th with no protection, get ready to see a lot of this:

 

Breaking ball in the dirt (strike 1 swinging)

Fastball 2 feet over his head (strike 2 swinging)

Breaking ball in the dirt (strike 3 swinging)

 

Pitcher's would never give Soriano anything to hit, and we all know that Soriano can't stop himself from swigning. It would be a total nightmare. Use your head.

[CoolHandLuke]

18[/b].08"]The Cubs may lust for Brian Roberts as the perfect part, but they won't put right-hander Jose Ceda or outfielder Felix Pie in the deal, so Roberts is going to stay in Baltimore. For now.

 

How do you know?

I wouldn't doubt it, Peter is at Cubs Spring Training camp down in Mesa so he probably has some good inside info.

 

I was referring to the date (how does he know what Gammons will say tomorrow?)

[DeuceBaseman]

And batting 5th? Good lord. That would be a nightmare and even worse than him battting 3rd of 4th. Who is going to protect him if he bats 5th. Soto? Soriano needs protection more than anyone on this team, and possibly more than anyone in baseball. Have you even watched Soriano play? If Soriano is batting 5th with no protection, get ready to see a lot of this:

 

Breaking ball in the dirt (strike 1 swinging)

Fastball 2 feet over his head (strike 2 swinging)

Breaking ball in the dirt (strike 3 swinging)

 

Pitcher's would never give Soriano anything to hit, and we all know that Soriano can't stop himself from swigning. It would be a total nightmare. Use your head.

 

That looks like most his at bats in the one hole with Theriot or whomever behind him. Soto is a machine. Batting 300 with 25-30 HR's is great protection. And maybe he'll actually learn to take more pitches cuz he might not be seeing that many strikes so maybe he gets on base more, and actually steals more bases.

[17 Seconds]

Soriano had better stats in the 5th hole than the leadoff spot in both 06 and 05.

 

Wait, at first you say this:

 

I dont care about how a few at bats in the 5th spot or 4th spot in his past resulted in. They were on different teams, with different guys in front of him and different guys in back of him, and different leagues.

 

And now all of a sudden you're citing a tiny amount of past at-bats in a feeble attempt to prove your point? So it's okay to completely ignore huge career sample sizes, but appropriate to only look at a tiny number of at-bats he had 1 season? Yeah, that make a whole lot of sense.

 

Batting 3rd in 04 he didnt have any worse stats than he did leadoff. So i dont know what your talking about

 

Umm, completely erroneous. Why don't you check the numbers before you say things.

[17 Seconds]

That looks like most his at bats in the one hole with Theriot or whomever behind him.

 

Umm, yeah, ONCE AGAIN, the numbers prove otherwise.

 

Soto is a machine. Batting 300 with 25-30 HR's is great protection.

 

You're seriously expecting those numbers out of Soto? Stop.

 

And maybe he'll actually learn to take more pitches cuz he might not be seeing that many strikes so maybe he gets on base more, and actually steals more bases

 

Yeah, and maybe batting leadoff next season he's have a .390 obp. Maybe he'll stop striking out. Maybe Clemens will admit he used Steroids. Maybe Paris Hilton will solve cancer.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

And batting 5th? Good lord. That would be a nightmare and even worse than him battting 3rd of 4th. Who is going to protect him if he bats 5th. Soto? Soriano needs protection more than anyone on this team, and possibly more than anyone in baseball. Have you even watched Soriano play? If Soriano is batting 5th with no protection, get ready to see a lot of this:

 

Breaking ball in the dirt (strike 1 swinging)

Fastball 2 feet over his head (strike 2 swinging)

Breaking ball in the dirt (strike 3 swinging)

 

Pitcher's would never give Soriano anything to hit, and we all know that Soriano can't stop himself from swigning. It would be a total nightmare. Use your head.

 

Why does that sequence of pitches dominate Soriano when hitting 6th, but not 1st?

[DeuceBaseman]

Soriano had better stats in the 5th hole than the leadoff spot in both 06 and 05.

 

Wait, at first you say this:

 

I dont care about how a few at bats in the 5th spot or 4th spot in his past resulted in. They were on different teams, with different guys in front of him and different guys in back of him, and different leagues.

 

And now all of a sudden you're citing a tiny amount of past at-bats in a feeble attempt to prove your point? So it's okay to completely ignore huge career sample sizes, but appropriate to only look at a tiny number of at-bats he had 1 season? Yeah, that make a whole lot of sense.

 

Batting 3rd in 04 he didnt have any worse stats than he did leadoff. So i dont know what your talking about

 

Umm, completely erroneous. Why don't you check the numbers before you say things.

 

I said that above cuz i just assumed he had horrible stats in the 5 hole compared to leadoff based on how confident you are that soriano cant hit in the 5 hole, and i didnt look at the stats. Then I looked at those stats and they didnt seem like a huge difference to me. Thats why i think its just coincidence. Thats why some players bat well one year and dont another.

[17 Seconds]

Why does that sequence of pitches dominate Soriano when hitting 6th, but not 1st?

 

Huh? Soriano would have no protection batting 6th. Pitcher's won't even try to get him out, they'll just throw garbage pitches up there in hopes that he chases, while not actually worrying about walking him because of the weakness that follows him. You have to pitch to a guy that is up before the 2-3-4 spots. Pretty basic stuff.

[17 Seconds]

Soriano had better stats in the 5th hole than the leadoff spot in both 06 and 05.

 

Wait, at first you say this:

 

I dont care about how a few at bats in the 5th spot or 4th spot in his past resulted in. They were on different teams, with different guys in front of him and different guys in back of him, and different leagues.

 

And now all of a sudden you're citing a tiny amount of past at-bats in a feeble attempt to prove your point? So it's okay to completely ignore huge career sample sizes, but appropriate to only look at a tiny number of at-bats he had 1 season? Yeah, that make a whole lot of sense.

 

Batting 3rd in 04 he didnt have any worse stats than he did leadoff. So i dont know what your talking about

 

Umm, completely erroneous. Why don't you check the numbers before you say things.

 

I said that above cuz i just assumed he had horrible stats in the 5 hole compared to leadoff based on how confident you are that soriano cant hit in the 5 hole, and i didnt look at the stats. Then I looked at those stats and they didnt seem like a huge difference to me. Thats why i think its just coincidence. Thats why some players bat well one year and dont another.

 

Umm, what? I have no idea what you just said. I do know that it's meaningless though, since you continue to ignore facts and basic logic, such as the fact that he hits terribly with runners on base.

[Guest]

the odds on soriano getting a leadoff hr are far less than the odds on roberts getting on base to be driven in are.

 

See, the thing is that a Soriano leadoff home run guarantees your team a run whereas a Roberts walk or single doesn't guarantee you anything other than a baserunner. Yes, a walk/single increases the odds that your team will score but a team always scores a run when a home run is hit.

 

To take it a bit further, the player batting immediately after a guy who hits a home run has never grounded into a double play while that happens all the time after a single or a walk.

[Derwood]

WARNING: NUMBERS FORTHCOMING

 

In his career, Soriano bats best in these situations:

 

- as a LF

- batting 1st (followed by a tiny sample size batting 6th, then batting 5th)

- on a 3-1 count (duh)

- with the bases empty (okay, slightly better with runners on 1st and 3rd, but it's a 900 PA difference in sample size)

- the 6th inning, followed closely by the 1st inning

- the first time he faces a pitcher in a game (followed by the 3rd)

 

so, where should we bat him.....

[DeuceBaseman]

WARNING: NUMBERS FORTHCOMING

 

In his career, Soriano bats best in these situations:

 

- as a LF

- batting 1st (followed by a tiny sample size batting 6th, then batting 5th)

- on a 3-1 count (duh)

- with the bases empty (okay, slightly better with runners on 1st and 3rd, but it's a 900 PA difference in sample size)

- the 6th inning, followed closely by the 1st inning

- the first time he faces a pitcher in a game (followed by the 3rd)

 

so, where should we bat him.....

 

See it varies so much. In 2002 he batted basically just first, but he had way better numbers with runners on than no one on. You cant say he cant hit in the 5 hole based on past at bats there, when it isnt a huge difference. And he has about the # of at bats in the 5 hole as 1 full year doing it (around 500). Players vary from year to year. He is a Major league hitter, he can bat anywhere. But when hes getting those big hits, it would be better if people were on base, which is more likely in the 5 hole.

[17 Seconds]

WARNING: NUMBERS FORTHCOMING

 

In his career, Soriano bats best in these situations:

 

- as a LF

- batting 1st (followed by a tiny sample size batting 6th, then batting 5th)

- on a 3-1 count (duh)

- with the bases empty (okay, slightly better with runners on 1st and 3rd, but it's a 900 PA difference in sample size)

- the 6th inning, followed closely by the 1st inning

- the first time he faces a pitcher in a game (followed by the 3rd)

 

so, where should we bat him.....

 

See it varies so much. In 2002 he batted basically just first, but he had way better numbers with runners on than no one on. You cant say he cant hit in the 5 hole based on past at bats there, when it isnt a huge difference. And he has about the # of at bats in the 5 hole as 1 full year doing it (around 500). Players vary from year to year. He is a Major league hitter, he can bat anywhere. But when hes getting those big hits, it would be better if people were on base, which is more likely in the 5 hole.

 

Why do you continue to ignore the fact that he is terrible with runners on and with risp? That's a pretty telling fact.

[UK1679666180]

Why does that sequence of pitches dominate Soriano when hitting 6th, but not 1st?

 

Huh? Soriano would have no protection batting 6th. Pitcher's won't even try to get him out, they'll just throw garbage pitches up there in hopes that he chases, while not actually worrying about walking him because of the weakness that follows him. You have to pitch to a guy that is up before the 2-3-4 spots. Pretty basic stuff.

 

If it was that easy, they would do that if he was hitting 1st, 3rd, 5th, or 9th. He didn't have any protection leading off in Washington unless an '06 Zimmerman made pitchers change their approach.

 

Pitchers use the same approach regardless of where he hits. AZ didn't pitch him any different and they got him out by getting ahead and putting him away with junk low and away.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Why does that sequence of pitches dominate Soriano when hitting 6th, but not 1st?

 

Huh? Soriano would have no protection batting 6th. Pitcher's won't even try to get him out, they'll just throw garbage pitches up there in hopes that he chases, while not actually worrying about walking him because of the weakness that follows him. You have to pitch to a guy that is up before the 2-3-4 spots. Pretty basic stuff.

 

FWIW, I meant to say 5th originally, because that's what you were talking about, but I don't think it really makes a difference to your point.

 

That said, Soriano doesn't become a significantly less patient hitter when you move him down the order, and that's why the "changing level of fear" pitchers have of walking him is a fallacy. Lineup protection is largely irrelevant.

[DeuceBaseman]

Why do you continue to ignore the fact that he is terrible with runners on and with risp? That's a pretty telling fact.

 

Maybe he's terrible with runners on base because he is in the leadoff spot? Maybe if he was moved to the 5th he would understand hes now an RBI producer and actually do better in that spot. Hes a major league hitter he can hit anywhere. He already made a huge adjustment to the OF, now he can make a smaller adjustment in the batting order.

[Fred Hornkohl]

Why do you continue to ignore the fact that he is terrible with runners on and with risp? That's a pretty telling fact.

 

Maybe he's terrible with runners on base because he is in the leadoff spot? Maybe if he was moved to the 5th he would understand hes now an RBI producer and actually do better in that spot. Hes a major league hitter he can hit anywhere. He already made a huge adjustment to the OF, now he can make a smaller adjustment in the batting order.

 

Or...... maybe he feels so comfortable in the leadoff spot because there is no pressure to drive in runs ??

 

Percentage of baserunners driven in........

 

04/02 - 09/30      BDI  LOB   RBI%
Ward                16   44  0.267
Ramirez             75  219  0.255
Jones               61  193  0.240
DeRosa              63  212  0.229
Kendall             18   61  0.228
Lee                 59  210  0.219
Floyd               36  139  0.206
Pagan               16   66  0.195
Fontenot            26  109  0.193
Theriot             41  182  0.184
Cedeno               9   40  0.184
Pie                 18   82  0.180
Soto                 5   23  0.179
Soriano             40  184  0.179
Fox                  1    5  0.167
K Hill              10   58  0.147
Barrett             19  113  0.144
Blanco               4   25  0.138
Murton              14  102  0.121
Bowen                2   19  0.095
Izturis              8   79  0.092
Monroe               3   33  0.083
Moore                0    3  0.000
Patterson            0    4  0.000
Fuld                 0    1  0.000

CUBS               560 2395  0.190

[wrigley23]

in over my head? in what respect? none of us works in mlb or in any position other than fandom to make anything other than a fan's opinion. to the guy saying a homer by soriano is better than roberts simply getting on base. How simplistic. I've already answered this one but i'll take another run at driving it into your head. First off, roberts gets on base more times than soriano hits home runs so. In terms of getting on base in general, roberts gets on base 40 pts more than soriano plus soriano is more likely to drive roberts in than vice versa. It doesn't get much more simple than that. In terms of soriano not hitting as good down in the order vs the top. You may be able to say that about a lot of hitters for various reasons. That is hardly a primary reason for where you hit someone as each team & year brings a different set of variables to the table. Soriano has said in the offseason he would move down if that's what piniella wanted. So much for him being against the move. If more people that are vocal on here are saying soriano is better leading off...that doesn't make your side right. You give yourself way too much credit as a message boarder that ranks right up there w/ the guy ringing the salvation army bell at wal-mart during the holidays.

[UMFan83]

Bigbird is talking again, for anyone who is interested:

 

It's my understanding that in addition to Gallagher, Cedeno and Murton we've asked for one of 2 players to be included. If one is there will be a deal. If not Roberts will remain an O.

 

Someone asked if the two in question might be Colvin and Veal and he replied

 

Nope!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[RedFlash]

Let's play "Lou's Adovcate" and say for argument sake....that Soriano is moved down to 4th or 5th spot, who bats "leadoff" for the Cubs? Don't say Brian Roberts, he isn't a member of the club.

 

To me this arguing over where Soriano is going to hit is moot, because unless the Cubs acquire Roberts(or another hitter who can bat leadoff) Soriano is the best and only option to hit leadoff. DeRosa---right now should be penicled in either 2nd or 6th. Theriot---should never see leadoff again.Fukudome is already penciled in to hit 5th. So, backers of moving Soriano out of the leadoff spot, using the current club (and not rumors players), who would you put at leadoff?

 

There is not a viable option on the club other then Soriano to hit leadoff. Blame that on Hendry if you right, blame it on Soriano's ego/pride if you chose, but the fact is unless Brian Roberts or whoever comes strolling through the door, Soriano is the ONLY option at leadoff. It's that simple.

[UK1679666180]

Let's play "Lou's Adovcate" and say for argument sake....that Soriano is moved down to 4th or 5th spot, who bats "leadoff" for the Cubs? Don't say Brian Roberts, he isn't a member of the club.

 

To me this arguing over where Soriano is going to hit is moot, because unless the Cubs acquire Roberts(or another hitter who can bat leadoff) Soriano is the best and only option to hit leadoff. DeRosa---right now should be penicled in either 2nd or 6th. Theriot---should never see leadoff again.Fukudome is already penciled in to hit 5th. So, backers of moving Soriano out of the leadoff spot, using the current club (and not rumors players), who would you put at leadoff?

 

There is not a viable option on the club other then Soriano to hit leadoff. Blame that on Hendry if you right, blame it on Soriano's ego/pride if you chose, but the fact is unless Brian Roberts or whoever comes strolling through the door, Soriano is the ONLY option at leadoff. It's that simple.

 

Since it appears it's going to be Soriano/Theriot as the daily double....

 

I would rather have Derosa/Fukudome than Soriano/Theriot. Assuming your statement implies that Soriano has to be out of that spot and in the middle.