Braun wins NL ROY??? Pedroia in the AL.

[moorecg]

Tulo got screwed.

 

(Title Edited to include AL)

Edited November 12, 2007 by moorecg

[Post Count Padder]

Pedroia wins in the AL

[Derwood]

pretty obvious. since when does the best rookie actually win?

[Guest]

Let's see...

 

Tulo:

 

Played solid defense (instead of historically bad) at a tougher position

Played the entire year

 

Braun:

 

Had historic offensive numbers for a rookie

 

 

I think Braun is a fine choice, though Tulo would have been, as well.

[YearofDaCubs]

Tulowitski was really good but even with his def. deficiencies Braun deserves it. To put up numbers like that as a rookie is utterly amazing.

[David]

Meh. I don't see a big deal. Braun is more deserving, IMO.

[Andy]

It should have been Braun.

[SouthSideRyan]

I think it shoulda been Tulo, but either one is defensible.

[swordsman]

Geovany Soto

[moorecg]

Geovany Soto

 

 

He's a lock for next year!

 

As for Braun v. Tulo....If Braun was just passable defensively I'd agree...but he's not at all....

[OleMissCub]

*clap-clap, clap-clap-clap, clap-clap-clap-clap* "TULO!!!"

[Mizzou]

Can someone make the case for Tulowitzki, cause I'm not seeing it at all. Take him out of Coors Field for the whole year, and his name wouldn't have even been in the discussion.

 

To me, Braun should have won by a mile. He had a monster year.

[Guest]

Can someone make the case for Tulowitzki, cause I'm not seeing it at all. Take him out of Coors Field for the whole year, and his name wouldn't have even been in the discussion.

 

To me, Braun should have won by a mile. He had a monster year.

Defensive value makes a HUGE difference in this case. Tulo put in a full year and Braun only 2/3.

 

Other than that, I've got nothing.

[Soul]

Braun's numbers were insane for a rook. I don't think it's an outrage for him to win ROY.

[javy knows my name]

I'm ok with it; just surprised. Braun coupled a historically amazing offensive year with a historically awful defensive one, and he didn't play the whole season. He would have been a lock to compile more errors than Bartlett, and to decrease his AVG and SLG, IMO

[Ender]

Well as a Brewer fan I'm pretty happy Braun won it.

 

As a baseball stats guy I think it could go either way which is what the voting says. While yes Tulo was a much better fielder he was also David Eckstein as a hitter on the road and it is hard to look past that for me.

[shnsajax]

If Braun had played the entire season his numbers could have exceeded Pujlos rookie season at least in several categories. He simply was great. Long term I think I would take Tulo, but Braun deserved the award.

[Rob]

I know these numbers (especially FRAR) aren't exatly the best that can be found, but I'm feeling somewhat lazy.

 

Batting Runs Above Replacement (BRAR) and Fielding Runs Above Replacement (FRAR)

 

Tulowitzki:

 

30 BRAR

46 FRAR

 

Braun:

 

50 BRAR

-15 FRAR

 

Tulo got absolutely screwed. In terms of overall value, Tulo was more than twice as valuable. Even giving Braun an equal amount of playing time, Tulo would have easily been the best choice.

[SouthSideRyan]

Can someone make the case for Tulowitzki, cause I'm not seeing it at all. Take him out of Coors Field for the whole year, and his name wouldn't have even been in the discussion.

 

To me, Braun should have won by a mile. He had a monster year.

 

Tulo rates out as one of the best fielders in baseball. Braun rates out as worse than present day Ron Santo.

[OleMissCub]

 

Tulowitzki:

 

30 BRAR

46 FRAR

 

Braun:

 

50 BRAR

-15 FRAR

 

 

Good lord!

[badnews]

Yeah, let's pretend defense counts anywhere near as offense. That's why Carlos Lee and Adam Dunn ride the bench and Hiram Bocachica is an every day starter.

 

Tulo's home/road numbers are the usual Coors Field joke. I remember the guy who played his position before him, Clint Barmes, was a shoe-in for ROY before he got hurt carrying groceries or whatever the lie was.

 

In short, I have nothing but contempt for Coors inflated numbers, probably more than anyone on the planet. What was his OPS away from Coors? .719? Oh, but he played nice defense, so he got "screwed." Yeah. Like someone else said - he wouldn't even be the conversation if it weren't for Coors.

 

Funny, before this year defense was rarely mentioned in the ROY argument. Nobody said one word, not one word, when Ryan "The Butcher" Howard won ROY over Jeff "1,000,000,000 Assists" Francoeur. Howard also played in a better park.

 

Now I can only hope Matt ".300 OPS difference home/road" Holliday gets "screwed" out of the MVP.

[ConstableRabbit]

Yeah, let's pretend defense counts anywhere near as offense. That's why Carlos Lee and Adam Dunn ride the bench and Hiram Bocachica is an every day starter.

 

Tulo's home/road numbers are the usual Coors Field joke. I remember the guy who played his position before him, Clint Barmes, was a shoe-in for ROY before he got hurt carrying groceries or whatever the lie was.

 

In short, I have nothing but contempt for Coors inflated numbers, probably more than anyone on the planet. What was his OPS away from Coors? .719? Oh, but he played nice defense, so he got "screwed." Yeah. Like someone else said - he wouldn't even be the conversation if it weren't for Coors.

 

Funny, before this year defense was rarely mentioned in the ROY argument. Nobody said one word, not one word, when Ryan "The Butcher" Howard won ROY over Jeff "1,000,000,000 Assists" Francoeur. Howard also played in a better park.

 

Now I can only hope Matt ".300 OPS difference home/road" Holliday gets "screwed" out of the MVP.

 

...I think you're missing the point, especially with that Howard-Francoeur comment.

 

No one is saying Tulowitzski should've won because his defense is better; his defense relative to Braun's is just ridiculously better -- vastly better than the difference between the offensive talents of the two.

[BigbadB]

Braun's NL Roy award will look real nice next to his GG award.

[Soul]

Yeah, let's pretend defense counts anywhere near as offense. That's why Carlos Lee and Adam Dunn ride the bench and Hiram Bocachica is an every day starter.

 

Tulo's home/road numbers are the usual Coors Field joke. I remember the guy who played his position before him, Clint Barmes, was a shoe-in for ROY before he got hurt carrying groceries or whatever the lie was.

 

In short, I have nothing but contempt for Coors inflated numbers, probably more than anyone on the planet. What was his OPS away from Coors? .719? Oh, but he played nice defense, so he got "screwed." Yeah. Like someone else said - he wouldn't even be the conversation if it weren't for Coors.

 

Funny, before this year defense was rarely mentioned in the ROY argument. Nobody said one word, not one word, when Ryan "The Butcher" Howard won ROY over Jeff "1,000,000,000 Assists" Francoeur. Howard also played in a better park.

 

Now I can only hope Matt ".300 OPS difference home/road" Holliday gets "screwed" out of the MVP.

 

...I think you're missing the point, especially with that Howard-Francoeur comment.

 

No one is saying Tulowitzski should've won because his defense is better; his defense relative to Braun's is just ridiculously better -- vastly better than the difference between the offensive talents of the two.

 

Yes, but again, you are now comparing the difference between the two, and again, the spread between defensive capabilities does not count for as much as the spread between offense.

 

And Braun's offense was just bombastically good.

 

I wouldn't have considered it an outrage if Tulo would have won. Actually I could probably go either way and be fine with it. I just don't think it's anywhere near an outrage that Braun took it home, that's all.

[SouthSideRyan]

Yeah bad/good defense in LF is definitely the same as the difference between great/epicly bad defense at SS/3B.

 

I don't trust defensive metrics that much, which is why I regress those numbers more than the offensive #s, but even with taking the offensive #s at a greater weight because of this, it's still a wash. It's insane to just toss out Tulowitzki's home numbers because he plays in Coors.

 

I don't know how many times I can re-post the same thing, but every time the topic of a Colorado player or pick your player playing in a hitter's park, people seem to want to just take his road #s and say, there's his true hitting level. Beyond the Coors hangover effect that has been studied, there's the fact that hitters hit better at home period. There was a 24 point difference in OPS between home/road games for the NL this year. (Braun was 80 points better at home) Let's also add in the fact that Tulowitzki doesn't get to play any road games at Coors field.

 

Again, I don't think it's a slam dunk for Tulo, but I would've voted for him.