Izturis traded to the Pirates for a PTBNL

[brinoch]

So what are Theriot, Fontenot, Marshall, Hill, Pagan, and Marmol?

 

utility player, utility player, 5th starter, inconsistent guy with #2/3 talent, 5th outfielder, inconsistent pitcher with good arm who's better suited for the bullpen

 

And the Braves have what? James and Davies are certainly no more consistent than Hill or Marshall. Thorman's terrible. They have Kelly Johnson, Brian McCann, and Salty. In this they certainly have produced three fine young talents. I don't know if Kelly Johnson is the real deal or not.

 

But the main point was that the Braves have bad contracts as well as the Cubs, and probably would have the same issues as Chicago with an equal budget.

 

Umm... the Braves have developed several other position players on that roster including Jones, Jones, Francoeur and Escobar.

 

C - McCann

1B - Thorman

2B - Johnson

3B - C. Jones

SS - Escobar (could replace Renteria)

RF - Francoeur

CF - A. Jones

LF - DARN IT THEY ARE ONE SHORT OF AN ENTIRE TEAM!!

 

Yes, it is true, the Braves are starting 7 home grown position players with Escobar and Saltalamacchia on the bench, as well. That's miles ahead of the Cubs.

[SouthSideRyan]

Everybody argue right past each other, this way nobody will gain a thing. Nobody anywhere said the Cubs are as good as the Braves at developing talent.

[Elrhino]

Whatever credibility you had with me in this discussion dissipated with this post. The whole ever-loving bloody point is that the Braves fix their problems quickly while the Cubs give their problems more time "to iron out their difficulties." Eyre, Jones, and Izturis? How long have they been on the team?

 

In Jacques case, he's been on the team 1.5 years. In the first complete season, he put up a 107 OPS+. In other words, very similar to the way Braves stuck with Vinny Castillas and Julio Franco. And if Hampton sitting there with 14.5 million in dead salary isn't a "problem", I don't really know what is. How did they get stuck with that? They took on a horrible contract just like the Cubs do, they tried to "wait it out" when signs of trouble started showing up just like the Cubs do, and eventually they just have to keep him on the roster and eat the contract because they can't dump them off on anybody else ... just like the Cubs do. The difference being, they develop BA Top 50 players to replace them with, while we develop Bobby Hill and Hee Seop Choi.

 

And don't kid yourself, if Cliff Floyd could play 1B the Braves would take on his $3 million dollar salary and his .780 OPS in a heartbeat. They've already paid out $3 million combined to Julio Franco and Craig Wilson this year for a fraction of the production.

 

As the poster above said above, nobody is arguing that the Cubs are as good as the Braves at developing talent yet you insist on arguing that point. Your hair trigger when it comes to arguing plus your constant need to attack other's "credibility" on an anonymous internet messageboard? Go pour yourself a stiff drink and put your feet up. God, it must be miserable living life like that.

[brinoch]

Not as long as the Braves stuck with Vinny Castillas and Julio Franco. And if Hampton sitting there with 14.5 million in dead salary isn't a "problem", I don't really know what is. How did they get stuck with that? They took on a horrible contract just like the Cubs do, they tried to "wait it out" when signs of trouble started showing up just like the Cubs do, and eventually they just have to keep him on the roster and eat the contract because they can't dump them off on anybody else ... just like the Cubs do. The difference being, they develop BA Top 50 players to replace them with, while we develop Bobby Hill and Hee Seop Choi.

 

First of all, I've never disputed that the Hampton deal was a bad one or that it is a problem for the Braves. Please, show me where I said this. Frankly, I thought it was pretty dumb for the Braves to acquire Hampton, all in all. But that's pretty much a rare thing for the Braves, rather than a consistent problem like it is with the Cubs. Generally speaking, they make good deals and they either don't sign or they let over-priced guys go. And, by the way, Hampton's contract is insuredagain for this year, though I would imagine that it's probably not for as much as the Braves would like. Here's an interesting article (from an MLB writer no less!) that details just how bad that contract has been (for all parties except Hampton).

 

I have no understanding at all for their fascination with Julio Franco.

 

Craig Wilson, on the other hand, was a pretty decent deal -- pre-hindsight -- for $2M. For his career, including his abysmal 2007, he's batted .262/.353/.474/.827. He did fall off a cliff this year, but at the time he was signed, I think it's pretty difficult to challenge the deal. Frankly, I was surprised that Wilson did as poorly as he did, and I was in favor of the Cubs picking him up and perhaps giving him a shot.

 

And don't kid yourself, if Cliff Floyd could play 1B the Braves would take on his $3 million dollar salary and his .780 OPS in a heartbeat. They've already paid out $3 million combined to Julio Franco and Craig Wilson this year for a fraction of the production.

 

Yes, but what about making a comparison of Floyd and Wilson during the offseason, when contracts are signed? Who would you have signed? Floyd's numbers, historically, are a little better than Wilson's. But Floyd is 4 years older, and much more injury prone. Floyd for $3M or Wilson for $2M? (I won't bring Franco into this because I wouldn't have signed him either.)

 

Right now the Braves are desperate for production from 1B, yes. That's their greatest area of need; I have no doubt they'd take on Floyd at this point.

 

As the poster above said above, nobody is arguing that the Cubs are as good as the Braves at developing talent yet you insist on arguing that point. Your hair trigger when it comes to arguing plus your constant need to attack other's "credibility" on an anonymous internet messageboard? Go pour yourself a stiff drink and put your feet up. God, it must be miserable living life like that.

 

Oh, now you had to go and make it personal. Nicely done. Please, don't make generalized personal attacks about my life. I don't appreciate it and it's not particularly appropriate.

 

Furthermore, I'd hardly call what I've posted in this thread a "hair trigger" or a "constant need to attack other's credibility" given that I've used the word credibility (until this post) once in the thread. Unlike you in your comments to me above, I wasn't intending to insult you; I'm sorry you took it that way. How about I re-phrase my sentence: I no longer find your points to be a reasonable or rational, and they are increasingly making use of hindsight, and at least one major point you've made is unsupported by fact. Your attack on Murton is ridiculous and not credible. While acknowledging that Francoeur is a top 50 BA prospect, you call Murton a mid-level prospect. In '06, Murton was better than Francoeur (and I believe Murton would have outproduced Francoeur this year, as well, if given a chance).

 

Murton: .297 BA, .365 OBP, .444 SLG, .809 OPS

Francoeur: .260 BA, .293 OBP, .449 SLG, .742 OPS

 

The Braves didn't rush out to sign Cliff Floyd to replace their young guy. But Hendry did. My discussion point in the thread is that the Cubs waste a ton of money. Frostwyrm, YearofDaCubs and I started this line of discussion and conversation ensued. Some disagree, some agree.

 

By the way, it may not have been courageous for the Braves to admit their mistake, but that's a heck of a lot more than the Cubs have done with the many mistakes they've made. Hendry's mistakes litter the team and have cost the Cubs a lot of money. Admitting, fixing, and learning form your mistakes makes you a better GM.

[Abe Frohman]

I think it is laughable that anyone considers Ryan Theriot and Mike Fontenot to be worthless or non-contributers.

 

So they aren't going to hit the ball out of the park. Big deal. We knew that before this season started. Theriot has a lot of worth, if you ask me. He can play multiple positions, and is good enough defensively at all of them. He gets on base, is a threat to steal, and is on pace to score around 90 runs (and I don't think at any point this season he has been a solidified, unquestionable starter).

 

I think Theriot is a big reason the Cubs are a good, solid team with a chance.

[YearofDaCubs]

I think it is laughable that anyone considers Ryan Theriot and Mike Fontenot to be worthless or non-contributers.

 

So they aren't going to hit the ball out of the park. Big deal. We knew that before this season started. Theriot has a lot of worth, if you ask me. He can play multiple positions, and is good enough defensively at all of them. He gets on base, is a threat to steal, and is on pace to score around 90 runs (and I don't think at any point this season he has been a solidified, unquestionable starter).

 

I think Theriot is a big reason the Cubs are a good, solid team with a chance.

I agree. Lately, there has been talk about how Theriot isn't an everyday player but his number suggest that he is. He can play 2B and SS and considering the hole we had as our starting SS earlier this year, Theriot has been a positive on this team. The guy won't give you power but he's good at stealing bases, takes pitches, gets on base and I've been happy to see him as our starting SS.

[SouthSideRyan]

Hate to post on topic but, Mike Emiegh, a great minor league source over on BTF, says there's rumors the PTBNL is Zach Duke. Take away the sharp objects from Jake.

[Andy]

Hate to post on topic but, Mike Emiegh, a great minor league source over on BTF, says there's rumors the PTBNL is Zach Duke. Take away the sharp objects from Jake.

:lol:

 

Good lord.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Hate to post on topic but, Mike Emiegh, a great minor league source over on BTF, says there's rumors the PTBNL is Zach Duke. Take away the sharp objects from Jake.

 

So can guys currently on the DL be used as PTBNLs? I actually suggested Duke a while back in one of the threads covering this, he may/probably need(s) surgery, but considering his ability and age it's worth it to pay him to rehab.

[ctcf]

Hate to post on topic but, Mike Emiegh, a great minor league source over on BTF, says there's rumors the PTBNL is Zach Duke. Take away the sharp objects from Jake.

:lol:

 

Good lord.

 

I'd hug Jim Hendry

[Soriano12]

Wow...Duke would be awesome..he is only 24 and has a chance to be a solid starter at this level.

[UMFan83]

DFA Marquis and add a 4th lefty to the rotation!

[E.J.]

Wow...Duke would be awesome..he is only 24 and has a chance to be a solid starter at this level.

 

He's on the DL with a sore pitching elbow though. He's probably going to need TJ surgery. I'd still love to have him though. Give him the surgery and let him try to come back at the end of next year.

[inari]

Uh, I'm pretty sure it's impossible that Duke can be a PTBNL. Am I wrong?

[CoolHandLuke]

Uh, I'm pretty sure it's impossible that Duke can be a PTBNL. Am I wrong?

 

I don't know the rules that well but isn't that one of the reasons for ptbnl, so you can trade guys currently on the dl?

[Wheelimus]

If the Pirates were to remove Duke from the DL and demote him (I'm sure he has options) they could. Hell, I thought there was some loophole involving the DL anyway.

[CoolHandLuke]

http://www.answers.com/topic/player-to-be-named-later

 

here is some info.

[E.J.]

Hate to post on topic but, Mike Emiegh, a great minor league source over on BTF, says there's rumors the PTBNL is Zach Duke. Take away the sharp objects from Jake.

:lol:

 

Good lord.

 

What is BTF?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Baseball Think Factory

[E.J.]

Baseball Think Factory

 

Thanks.

[RynoRules]

Hate to post on topic but, Mike Emiegh, a great minor league source over on BTF, says there's rumors the PTBNL is Zach Duke. Take away the sharp objects from Jake.

 

Sweet Moses that would be quite a take for say-Czar.

[Soriano12]

When the trade was announced I was in joy simply for the fact we rid this team of Izturis. I don't care if Duke's arm is in shreads right now, just getting the chance to get him and taking a flier that he willl come back strong is icing on the cake.

 

Hendry if you could pull this deal off I might have to move you up from below average GM to Average GM.

[ctcf]

When the trade was announced I was in joy simply for the fact we rid this team of Izturis. I don't care if Duke's arm is in shreads right now, just getting the chance to get him and taking a flier that he willl come back strong is icing on the cake.

 

Hendry if you could pull this deal off I might have to move you up from below average GM to Average GM.

 

Now thats saying something

[CubinNY]

Maddux for Duke is a lot better than Maddux for PTBNL.

 

This sounds fishy, very fishy though.

[Jake]

Hate to post on topic but, Mike Emiegh, a great minor league source over on BTF, says there's rumors the PTBNL is Zach Duke. Take away the sharp objects from Jake.

 

Not even worth responding to.

 

EDIT: Actually, I'll respond. The player is going to be someone who's not on the 40 man. So, that rules out Duke.

 

Although, the way Duke has pitched this season...