Izturis traded to the Pirates for a PTBNL

[Drew Doughty]

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j163/Niner74/Izturis-Pirates.jpg

 

he looks good in the black and gold.

[David]

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j163/Niner74/Izturis-Pirates.jpg

 

 

WTF? If that's a chop, it's a really good one.

[Balsa]

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j163/Niner74/Izturis-Pirates.jpg

 

 

WTF? If that's a chop, it's a really good one.

No kidding.... :shock:

[Derwood]

local sports radio here has some pissed off callers (and host). of course, they're also pissed at what a ludicrous contract the team gave Wilson, which is making him impossible to trade ("what contender would want to acquire a $7million number eight hitter?")

[Backtobanks]

The Pirates aren't contending this year, so I can't imagine why they would want Izturis unless they're considering picking up his option. What a stupid organization.

Maybe they are considering that, if they're trying to trade Jack Wilson.

 

which is hilarious, since izturis is more or less a hispanic version of jack wilson

 

Yeah, but the Hispanic version has a much better contract than Jack Wilson. Wilson's contract is ridiculous.

[Elrhino]

[ It's just wasteful and profligate spending, and it sickens me. Teams like Atlanta and Oakland who are successful year in and year out don't pay large amounts of money for this kind of drek.

 

 

Atlanta's got Wickman and Andruw Jones this year, Tim Hudson and John Thomson last year.

 

Oakland's got Eric Chavez, Jason Kendall, and Mark Kotsay.

 

You can spend even larger amounts of money on high paid dreck too. The White Sox won a world series with a team full of middling salary guys and no superstars. The Cardinals did it the other way with a few studs, and the rest dreck. The Red Sox had a couple superstars, and then a bunch of role players.

 

Don't overspend on bad players. Shocking revelation.

 

Braves are also on the hook for the entirity of Mike Hampton's 14.5 this year.

 

Also, if you think of Floyd's $3 million as "overpaid dreck", I wounder what you would call Atlanta paying Craig Wilson $2 million when he doesn't even last two months on the team.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Elrhino

[Marco4]

I hear that the PTBNL is the Parrot.

 

FLOYD MUST PLAY EVERY DAY.

[Derwood]

let's hope this PTBNL is named soon....I hate waiting

[David]

Actually, on the left there's something weird going on with the neck.

[frostwyrm]

[ It's just wasteful and profligate spending, and it sickens me. Teams like Atlanta and Oakland who are successful year in and year out don't pay large amounts of money for this kind of drek.

 

 

Atlanta's got Wickman and Andruw Jones this year, Tim Hudson and John Thomson last year.

 

Oakland's got Eric Chavez, Jason Kendall, and Mark Kotsay.

 

You can spend even larger amounts of money on high paid dreck too. The White Sox won a world series with a team full of middling salary guys and no superstars. The Cardinals did it the other way with a few studs, and the rest dreck. The Red Sox had a couple superstars, and then a bunch of role players.

 

Don't overspend on bad players. Shocking revelation.

 

Braves are also on the hook for the entirity of Mike Hampton's 14.5 this year.

 

They also paid Craig Wilson 2 million, which makes Floyd at $3 million look like the bargain of the Century.

 

The Braves compensate for bad contracts by having a farm system that produces everyday players. The Cubs compensate by spending more money than everybody else in their division.

[Elrhino]

You'll get no argument from me that the Braves are better at producing every day players from their farm system, but to say that their philosophy is drastically different from the Cubs is wrong. The Cubs have had Pagan, Theriot, Fontenot, K. Hill, Fox, Soto, Gallagher, Marmol, Marshall, Petrick, R. Cherry, Guzman, Wuertz, Rapada and Pie on the active roster this year, and the Braves still pay for a 78 year old Julio Franco and his 62 OPS+ if the need calls for it. Edited July 19, 2007 by Elrhino

[NCCubFan]

You'll get no argument from me that the Braves are better at producing every day players from their farm system, but to say that their philosophy is drastically different from the Cubs is wrong. The Cubs have had Pagan, Theriot, Fontenot, K. Hill, Fox, Soto, Gallagher, Marmol, Marshall, Petrick, R. Cherry, Guzman, Rapada and Pie on the active roster this year, and the Braves still pay for a 78 year old Julio Franco and his mediocre bat if need be.

Come on, quit exaggerating. He can't be a day over 75. :lol:

[brinoch]

We had to send the Dodgers $2M cash to get Izturis, now we're eating the remaining 2/3 of his contract to get rid of him, and he's already been paid for playing about a full season's worth of games. This has been an expensive fiasco and a good example of how money does matter. Teams with smaller payrolls can't easily afford these types of mistakes.

You're right. This is all on Hendry for starting this mess in the first place. We should have never traded for Izturcrap in the first place.

 

If I calculate correctly the total financial damage incurred by the Cub's involvement with Izturis is roughly $7.25M. Hendry sucks, he's just fortunate enough to have the payroll to outspend his mistakes.

 

That's pretty horrid. Let's look at some of the wasted funds. Because it's always fun to stick a needle in one's eye.

 

2007

$4.25M -- Izturis

$4.75M -- Marquis

$3.00M -- Floyd

$2.55M -- Blanco

$5.33M -- Jones

$3.83M -- Eyre

$4.50M -- Howry

$3.25M -- Rusch (might be insured since he could not play).

 

While I don't disagree with most of the list, I have to wonder who in our minor league system could put up a 146 and 101 ERA+ with a 71:17 and 36:12 K:BB ratio the past two years?

 

Those are Bob Howry's numbers as a Cub.

 

Actually, I quite like Howry. He's been solid for us, all in all.

 

But, our organizational strength is pitching. We have plenty of solid minor league pitchers who we control for a very long time, at a very low price. Why pay lots of money for relievers who are crapshoot anyway?

 

If we don't make bad trades like Mitre-Nolasco-Pinto for Pierre, we don't need to go out and pay relievers like Howry $12M for 3 years. Or Marquis for $21M over 3 years. Instead we can be patient with Mitre and give Pinto or Nolasco a chance to make the roster.

 

In addition, we should be emulating Towers with our bullpen strategy. Go cheap, go with good command over high velocity, and look for guys who don't walk people and get outs.

[brinoch]

[ It's just wasteful and profligate spending, and it sickens me. Teams like Atlanta and Oakland who are successful year in and year out don't pay large amounts of money for this kind of drek.

 

 

Atlanta's got Wickman and Andruw Jones this year, Tim Hudson and John Thomson last year.

 

Oakland's got Eric Chavez, Jason Kendall, and Mark Kotsay.

 

You can spend even larger amounts of money on high paid dreck too. The White Sox won a world series with a team full of middling salary guys and no superstars. The Cardinals did it the other way with a few studs, and the rest dreck. The Red Sox had a couple superstars, and then a bunch of role players.

 

Don't overspend on bad players. Shocking revelation.

 

Braves are also on the hook for the entirity of Mike Hampton's 14.5 this year.

 

Also, if you think of Floyd's $3 million as "overpaid dreck", I wounder what you would call Atlanta paying Craig Wilson $2 million when he doesn't even last two months on the team.

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Hampton is insured. And, I might point out that when Wilson didn't produce, they cut him. Amazing. They made a mistake BUT THEY RECTIFIED IT by cutting Wilson. What do we do with a crappy veteran? Keep 'em on the roster while punishing the young guy for the veteran's failure.

 

And Floyd is overpaid, injury-prone dreck. Along with his incredible 4 home runs, he's hitting .304/.374/.415 for a .789 OPS. Wow. We're paying him $3M+ for that? Why, we have a nice little guy in AAA who did better than that last year who we are paying $415,000. With Jacque Jones on the roster, Floyd was always an extraneous piece.

[dew1679666265]

We had to send the Dodgers $2M cash to get Izturis, now we're eating the remaining 2/3 of his contract to get rid of him, and he's already been paid for playing about a full season's worth of games. This has been an expensive fiasco and a good example of how money does matter. Teams with smaller payrolls can't easily afford these types of mistakes.

You're right. This is all on Hendry for starting this mess in the first place. We should have never traded for Izturcrap in the first place.

 

If I calculate correctly the total financial damage incurred by the Cub's involvement with Izturis is roughly $7.25M. Hendry sucks, he's just fortunate enough to have the payroll to outspend his mistakes.

 

That's pretty horrid. Let's look at some of the wasted funds. Because it's always fun to stick a needle in one's eye.

 

2007

$4.25M -- Izturis

$4.75M -- Marquis

$3.00M -- Floyd

$2.55M -- Blanco

$5.33M -- Jones

$3.83M -- Eyre

$4.50M -- Howry

$3.25M -- Rusch (might be insured since he could not play).

 

While I don't disagree with most of the list, I have to wonder who in our minor league system could put up a 146 and 101 ERA+ with a 71:17 and 36:12 K:BB ratio the past two years?

 

Those are Bob Howry's numbers as a Cub.

 

Actually, I quite like Howry. He's been solid for us, all in all.

 

But, our organizational strength is pitching. We have plenty of solid minor league pitchers who we control for a very long time, at a very low price. Why pay lots of money for relievers who are crapshoot anyway?

 

I actually argue whether Howry is a crapshoot. Most of the time, relievers are very volatile, but Howry has been consistently good over the years. Before last year's 146, he had two consecutive years of 166 ERA+ and failed to top 100 in a healthy season only once: 2001 with the White Sox when he had a 98. How good he is depends, but he's always been good.

 

If we don't make bad trades like Mitre-Nolasco-Pinto for Pierre, we don't need to go out and pay relievers like Howry $12M for 3 years. Or Marquis for $21M over 3 years. Instead we can be patient with Mitre and give Pinto or Nolasco a chance to make the roster.

 

I'll agree with this. While I was happy at the time to get Pierre (quit laughing), I thought we gave up a little too much for him. I didn't really mind losing Mitre but hated giving both Nolasco and Pinto.

 

In addition, we should be emulating Towers with our bullpen strategy. Go cheap, go with good command over high velocity, and look for guys who don't walk people and get outs.

 

I wouldn't mind that strategy, though I think the power arms theory can work too. Going 100% either way is the only strategy I'm against. I think a variety of good arms is important.

[Cubfan_N_nebraska]

PTBNL or a box of chocolates

[brinoch]

In addition, we should be emulating Towers with our bullpen strategy. Go cheap, go with good command over high velocity, and look for guys who don't walk people and get outs.

 

I wouldn't mind that strategy, though I think the power arms theory can work too. Going 100% either way is the only strategy I'm against. I think a variety of good arms is important.

 

Personally, I don't really care how hard or with which arm they throw. I'm interested in their K rates, BB rates, WHIP and how often they get ahead the hitter.

[Elrhino]

[ It's just wasteful and profligate spending, and it sickens me. Teams like Atlanta and Oakland who are successful year in and year out don't pay large amounts of money for this kind of drek.

 

 

Atlanta's got Wickman and Andruw Jones this year, Tim Hudson and John Thomson last year.

 

Oakland's got Eric Chavez, Jason Kendall, and Mark Kotsay.

 

You can spend even larger amounts of money on high paid dreck too. The White Sox won a world series with a team full of middling salary guys and no superstars. The Cardinals did it the other way with a few studs, and the rest dreck. The Red Sox had a couple superstars, and then a bunch of role players.

 

Don't overspend on bad players. Shocking revelation.

 

Braves are also on the hook for the entirity of Mike Hampton's 14.5 this year.

 

Also, if you think of Floyd's $3 million as "overpaid dreck", I wounder what you would call Atlanta paying Craig Wilson $2 million when he doesn't even last two months on the team.

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Hampton is insured. And, I might point out that when Wilson didn't produce, they cut him. Amazing. They made a mistake BUT THEY RECTIFIED IT by cutting Wilson. What do we do with a crappy veteran? Keep 'em on the roster while punishing the young guy for the veteran's failure.

 

And Floyd is overpaid, injury-prone dreck. Along with his incredible 4 home runs, he's hitting .304/.374/.415 for a .789 OPS. Wow. We're paying him $3M+ for that? Why, we have a nice little guy in AAA who did better than that last year who we are paying $415,000. With Jacque Jones on the roster, Floyd was always an extraneous piece.

 

Hampton was insured last year, but not this year. And if Craig Wilson was hitting anywhere in the same stratosphere as Floyd's "wow" numbers, or could play CF or SS like JJ or Itzturis, you better believe he and his $2 million would still be on that Braves roster. Braves would have probably offered him a raise if he could put up an .780 OPS like Floyd is providing the Cubs. Unfortunately for the Braves and Wilson, he was a defensive monstrosity even at 1B and was putting up a .560 OPS at the time of his release. Not a real courageous stance to "rectify" that.

 

The difference between the Braves organizationan and the Cubs organization is that they're developing and bringing up BA Top 50 prospects like Saltimacchia. McCann and Francour while we're so poor at developing positional players that our fans have to resort to pumping up and overvalue mid level prospects like Matt Murton to laughable hero status.

[brinoch]

[ It's just wasteful and profligate spending, and it sickens me. Teams like Atlanta and Oakland who are successful year in and year out don't pay large amounts of money for this kind of drek.

 

 

Atlanta's got Wickman and Andruw Jones this year, Tim Hudson and John Thomson last year.

 

Oakland's got Eric Chavez, Jason Kendall, and Mark Kotsay.

 

You can spend even larger amounts of money on high paid dreck too. The White Sox won a world series with a team full of middling salary guys and no superstars. The Cardinals did it the other way with a few studs, and the rest dreck. The Red Sox had a couple superstars, and then a bunch of role players.

 

Don't overspend on bad players. Shocking revelation.

 

Braves are also on the hook for the entirity of Mike Hampton's 14.5 this year.

 

Also, if you think of Floyd's $3 million as "overpaid dreck", I wounder what you would call Atlanta paying Craig Wilson $2 million when he doesn't even last two months on the team.

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Hampton is insured. And, I might point out that when Wilson didn't produce, they cut him. Amazing. They made a mistake BUT THEY RECTIFIED IT by cutting Wilson. What do we do with a crappy veteran? Keep 'em on the roster while punishing the young guy for the veteran's failure.

 

And Floyd is overpaid, injury-prone dreck. Along with his incredible 4 home runs, he's hitting .304/.374/.415 for a .789 OPS. Wow. We're paying him $3M+ for that? Why, we have a nice little guy in AAA who did better than that last year who we are paying $415,000. With Jacque Jones on the roster, Floyd was always an extraneous piece.

 

Hampton was insured last year, but not this year. And if Craig Wilson was hitting anywhere in the same stratosphere as Floyd's "wow" numbers, or could play CF or SS like JJ or Itzturis, you better believe he and his $2 million would still be on that Braves roster. Braves would have probably offered him a raise if he could put up an .780 OPS like Floyd is providing the Cubs. Unfortunately for the Braves and Wilson, he was a defensive monstrosity even at 1B and was putting up a .560 OPS at the time of his release. Not a real courageous stance to "rectify" that.

 

The difference between the Braves organizationan and the Cubs organization is that they're developing and bringing up BA Top 50 prospects like Saltimacchia. McCann and Francour while we're so poor at developing positional players that our fans have to resort to pumping up and overvalue mid level prospects like Matt Murton to laughable hero status.

 

Whatever credibility you had with me in this discussion dissipated with this post. The whole ever-loving bloody point is that the Braves fix their problems quickly while the Cubs give their problems more time "to iron out their difficulties." Eyre, Jones, and Izturis? How long have they been on the team? How many appearances and PA's have they wasted? Moreover, the reason the Braves are able to develop excellent positional players is because they give them a chance. They allow them to struggle before they ship them back to the minors. For most players, it takes a while to get the hang of major league pitching and you do them a disservice by benching them at the first sign of trouble.

 

And, calling Murton a marginal prospect is ridiculous. If the Cubs had been patient with him this season, he'd most likely be putting up an .850+ OPS. (Soriano, by comparison, has an .872 OPS.) I don't know about you, but I think I'd rather have saved the $3M we're paying Floyd and just let the successful, proven young guy play LF. Put Soriano in RF and Jones in CF. An .850 OPS would be good for about 22nd best among MLB OFers. I don't know about you, but I'll take that from a 25 year old.

 

Magically enough, the development he has this year will help solidify him into a solid major leaguer as he enters his peak years.

[TheDude]

The Braves compensate for bad contracts by having a farm system that produces everyday players. The Cubs compensate by spending more money than everybody else in their division.

 

So what are Theriot, Fontenot, Marshall, Hill, Pagan, and Marmol? The Braves might have one or two more young guys than the Cubs, but it's hardly night and day.

 

The Braves have 7 guys on the roster making $8 million+ (Renteria, Hampton, Jones, Jones, Wickman, Hudson, Smoltz), the Cubs have 4 such guys (Zambrano, Lee, Ramirez, Soriano). Of all the contracts, I would argue more of the Braves $8 million plus are "bad contracts" than the Cubs.

 

The difference with the Cubs is that they needlessly overpay for mid-level players. Take away Jones, Izturis, Eyre, Howry, and you free up ~$19 million of bad mid-level contracts.

[TruffleShuffle]

So what are Theriot, Fontenot, Marshall, Hill, Pagan, and Marmol?

 

utility player, utility player, 5th starter, inconsistent guy with #2/3 talent, 5th outfielder, inconsistent pitcher with good arm who's better suited for the bullpen

[brinoch]

So what are Theriot, Fontenot, Marshall, Hill, Pagan, and Marmol?

 

utility player, utility player, 5th starter, inconsistent guy with #2/3 talent, 5th outfielder, inconsistent pitcher with good arm who's better suited for the bullpen

 

To be fair, Hill's been pretty consistent, all in all, over the past year. Of late, he's been inconsistent, though. And Marmol's been lights out in the 'pen. I don't disagree with your other assessments, however. In fact, you might be a little optimistic with Pagan.

[TruffleShuffle]

So what are Theriot, Fontenot, Marshall, Hill, Pagan, and Marmol?

 

utility player, utility player, 5th starter, inconsistent guy with #2/3 talent, 5th outfielder, inconsistent pitcher with good arm who's better suited for the bullpen

 

To be fair, Hill's been pretty consistent, all in all, over the past year. Of late, he's been inconsistent, though. And Marmol's been lights out in the 'pen. I don't disagree with your other assessments, however. In fact, you might be a little optimistic with Pagan.

 

as most know, i'm big on hill, but i realize that many folks may not be as high on him as i am. But he certainly can be an above-average starter. Marmol has been lights out, but his history suggests that he may have some control issues. Those two are the most valuable players on that list above, though. Three (Theriot, Fontenot, Pagan) have almost no value at all.

[circlecitycub]

So what are Theriot, Fontenot, Marshall, Hill, Pagan, and Marmol?

 

utility player, utility player, 5th starter, inconsistent guy with #2/3 talent, 5th outfielder, inconsistent pitcher with good arm who's better suited for the bullpen

 

And yet all of them have contributed quite nicely to the hottest team in baseball right now.

[TheDude]

So what are Theriot, Fontenot, Marshall, Hill, Pagan, and Marmol?

 

utility player, utility player, 5th starter, inconsistent guy with #2/3 talent, 5th outfielder, inconsistent pitcher with good arm who's better suited for the bullpen

 

And the Braves have what? James and Davies are certainly no more consistent than Hill or Marshall. Thorman's terrible. They have Kelly Johnson, Brian McCann, and Salty. In this they certainly have produced three fine young talents. I don't know if Kelly Johnson is the real deal or not.

 

But the main point was that the Braves have bad contracts as well as the Cubs, and probably would have the same issues as Chicago with an equal budget.