Dunn on the market

[tkenm356]

We're not getting Dunn with the ownership of the club still up in the air. You don't trade the level of talent required to nab Dunn and then not sign an extension.

 

Geez, the Trib went cold feet on Zambrano and wouldn't pony up the dinero to go above slot in the draft. No way does Dunn get inked to an extension by the Cubs. And if there's no extension, there's no point dealing for him.

 

I believe this is a correct assessment of the situation. The high probability scenario is that Hendry has the green light to make any deals he wants to in order to improve the club if they are in the race, but only for two types of players:

 

(a) expiring contract after 2007

(b) under contract in 2008, provided the trading team takes back equal and existing Cub contracts

 

So, someone was suggesting shortstop upgrade.

 

The Cubs could acquire David Eckstein. He is a free agent after 2007. The Cubs could acquire Miguel Tejada. But since he's under contract in 2008 for $13M, the Orioles would have to pick up salaries on Cub players in 2008 to the tune of $13M - e.g. Jones, Dempster, Blanco plus prospects.

 

I know you're a very well respected member of this forum community, but shame on you! :)

[jersey cubs fan]

I'd take a guy who can put up a line of

 

.285AVG/25HR/85RBI/.360OBP/.510SLG

 

Over something like saaaaay:

 

.234AVG/40HR/92RBI/.365OBP/.490SLG (Dunn, last year)

 

 

If Dunn could just learn to hit for average instead of power he could still hit 30+HR but he'd drive in way more runs, score more runs, and have absurd OBP/SLG.

 

So you'd take the guy who drives in fewer runs, and scores fewer runs (if the preferred OBP is lower, and his HR are lower, he will score less) all because you don't like the average?

 

 

This makes no sense.

[tkenm356]

I'd take a guy who can put up a line of

 

.285AVG/25HR/85RBI/.360OBP/.510SLG

 

Over something like saaaaay:

 

.234AVG/40HR/92RBI/.365OBP/.490SLG (Dunn, last year)

 

 

If Dunn could just learn to hit for average instead of power he could still hit 30+HR but he'd drive in way more runs, score more runs, and have absurd OBP/SLG.

 

So you'd take the guy who drives in fewer runs, and scores fewer runs (if the preferred OBP is lower, and his HR are lower, he will score less) all because you don't like the average?

 

 

This makes no sense.

 

What makes no sense is you seem to think a players OBP and HR totals a mainly tied to their runs scored production. You can have lower OBP and HR's and still score a truck load of runs.

 

The following people had lower OBP and at least 5 or more LESS HR than Dunn and scored mored runs than he did last year, and I'll put their AVG, OBP, and Runs scored in parenthesis:

 

Adam Dunn (.234/.365/99)

 

Edgar Renteria (.293/.361/100)

Bill Hall (.270/.345/101)

Michael Cuddyer (.284/.362/102)

Raul Ibanez (.289/.353/103)

Dan Uggla (.282/.339/105)

Johnny Damon (.285/.359/115)

Hanley Ramirez (.292/.353/119)

Jose Reyes (.300/.354/122)

Jimmy Rollins (.277/.334/127)

 

See a theme? All AVG's between .270 and .300. The point I was trying to make was if Dunn would hit for average he'd dominate a lot of categories, but he doesn't, can't, and likely won't. The Cubs don't need that, and as others pointed out, especially not at his price. If you can find a guy who hits for and average between .270-.300, have an OBP between .340-.360, and can hit 20-30HR and 80-90RBI, they can score just as many runs as Adam Dunn will, and likely not cost you runs with their shoddy glove work in right field.

 

Adam Dunn is not an answer

[sunnydoo]

what is Dunn's batted ball in play %? Has to be horrific.

 

I think that is a legitimate complaint with him, the Cubs, and the history of this franchise.

 

But no way we spend the money to get him.

[soccer10k]

Adam Dunn in RF would be an epic nightmare.

 

Who cares about his D at this point. He's a 40 HR and .900 OPS machine.

 

Geter' Dunn!

 

In his five full seasons he's had an OPS of .900 or higher twice. If you want to count his 2001 season (244 AB's) then you have to count his 2007 season (220 AB's) in which case he's only done it 3 out of 7 seasons. I wouldn't call that a machine.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The theme is that pretty much all those guys hit at the top of the order, giving them more plate appearances in front of good hitters. Think about what you're saying for a minute. Dunn gets on base more often, and hits for extra bases more often than all of those guys(i.e. he puts himself on the bases and in scoring position more often). Do you really think the difference in runs is because those other hitters hit singles(or in the case of those with a lower OBP, hit into outs) when Dunn walks?

[jersey cubs fan]

I'd take a guy who can put up a line of

 

.285AVG/25HR/85RBI/.360OBP/.510SLG

 

Over something like saaaaay:

 

.234AVG/40HR/92RBI/.365OBP/.490SLG (Dunn, last year)

 

 

If Dunn could just learn to hit for average instead of power he could still hit 30+HR but he'd drive in way more runs, score more runs, and have absurd OBP/SLG.

 

So you'd take the guy who drives in fewer runs, and scores fewer runs (if the preferred OBP is lower, and his HR are lower, he will score less) all because you don't like the average?

 

 

This makes no sense.

 

What makes no sense is you seem to think a players OBP and HR totals a mainly tied to their runs scored production. You can have lower OBP and HR's and still score a truck load of runs.

 

The point is you specifically said you would prefer the player with a lower RBI total but claimed if he changed his style he'd hit more.

 

It's nonsensical.

 

R and RBI are team oriented. The only thing a player can do to affect his R and RBI totals are produce OBP and SLG.

[imb]

 

Adam Dunn (.234/.365/99)

 

Edgar Renteria (.293/.361/100)

Bill Hall (.270/.345/101)

Michael Cuddyer (.284/.362/102)

Raul Ibanez (.289/.353/103)

Dan Uggla (.282/.339/105)

Johnny Damon (.285/.359/115)

Hanley Ramirez (.292/.353/119)

Jose Reyes (.300/.354/122)

Jimmy Rollins (.277/.334/127)

 

See a theme? All AVG's between .270 and .300. The point I was trying to make was if Dunn would hit for average he'd dominate a lot of categories, but he doesn't, can't, and likely won't. The Cubs don't need that, and as others pointed out, especially not at his price.

 

Is this a joke? Runs scored is such a terrible way to judge a player that I really hope it is.

 

First off, you can toss out Renteria, Hall, Cuddyer, Ibanez and Uggla, seeing as how its a difference of, at maximum, six runs. And over 162 games, there are all kinds of ways that a player might score six more runs than a player with a higher OBP.

 

As for the other guys?

 

Plate Appearances

Dunn - 673, Reds scored 749 runs.

Damon - 660, Yankees scored 930 runs. Damon hit in front of ARod, Giambi, Jeter, etc

Ramirez - 689, Marlins scored 758 runs. Ramirez hit in front of Uggla, Cabrera and Jacobs.

Reyes - 700, Mets scored 834. Reyes hit in front of Wright, Beltran and Delgado

Rollins - 746, Phillies scored 865 runs. Hit in front of Utley, Howard and Burrell.

 

There are a lot of reasons Dunn scored less runs than the players you listed.

[tkenm356]

and hits for extra bases more often than all of those guys(i.e. he puts himself on the bases and in scoring position more often). Do you really think the difference in runs is because those other hitters hit singles(or in the case of those with a lower OBP, hit into outs) when Dunn walks?

 

Dunn had 64 XBH's last year. 40HR, 24 doubles. The following players from the initial list had 64 or more XBH's:

 

Bill Hall (78)

Michael Cuddyer (70)

Raul Ibanez (71)

Johnny Damon (64)

Hanley Ramirez (74)

Jose Reyes (66)

Jimmy Rollins (79)

 

As for the whole argument of the better lineups... then yeah, you're right. Unfortunately, the Reds have outscored the Cubs the last two years soooo, we'd be bringing him into a lineup that can't drive in runs to have him do what? Hit solo home runs? Don't we have enough of those already? And just how many runs is he going to allow to score out in right field with his stellar glove work?

 

I don't see how anyone can make a solid argument to put Dunn on this team. If you want to refute my opinions on the matter, that's one thing and completely understandable, I love debating (even if I am the only one who thinks the way I do :lol: , but anyone who thinks adding Dunn and his monster contract is a good idea for this team is fooling themselves

[jersey cubs fan]

I don't see how anyone can make a solid argument to put Dunn on this team.

 

 

It's actually quite easy.

 

2- Barrett

3- Lee

4- DeRosa

5- Ramirez

6- Theriot

7- Dunn

8- Pie

9- Soriano

 

would be a hell of a lineup. You'd have to be completely biased against or ignorant of the value of OBP/SLG to not see why Dunn in this lineup would be a good thing.

 

Although at this point, all the other stuff that would go into getting Dunn makes me less interested.

[Chocolate Milk]

We could use Dunn's speed on the basepaths.

[tkenm356]

It's actually quite easy...

 

would be a hell of a lineup. You'd have to be completely biased against or ignorant of the value of OBP/SLG to not see why Dunn in this lineup would be a good thing.

 

No, I'm not ignorant to the value of OBP/SLG. I just don't like Adam Dunn for his price. At his cost he should be able to bring more to the table than a HR, K, or BB

 

I'd much rather see someone like Carl Crawford on this team than Adam Dunn, but his asking price would likely be too high, even though the much heralded SLG and OBP stats pale in comparison to Adam Dunn

[Exile on Waveland]

I'd take a guy who can put up a line of

 

.285AVG/25HR/85RBI/.360OBP/.510SLG

 

Over something like saaaaay:

 

.234AVG/40HR/92RBI/.365OBP/.490SLG (Dunn, last year)

 

 

If Dunn could just learn to hit for average instead of power he could still hit 30+HR but he'd drive in way more runs, score more runs, and have absurd OBP/SLG.

 

So you'd take the guy who drives in fewer runs, and scores fewer runs (if the preferred OBP is lower, and his HR are lower, he will score less) all because you don't like the average?

 

 

This makes no sense.

 

What makes no sense is you seem to think a players OBP and HR totals a mainly tied to their runs scored production. You can have lower OBP and HR's and still score a truck load of runs.

 

The point is you specifically said you would prefer the player with a lower RBI total but claimed if he changed his style he'd hit more.

 

It's nonsensical.

 

R and RBI are team oriented. The only thing a player can do to affect his R and RBI totals are produce OBP and SLG.

 

In his defense, 285/360/510 is better than 234/365/490. I'm not sure if that's tkenm's main point or not, and I don't agree with judging players on RBI or Rs. However, I do think a team is better off with the former numbers.

[tkenm356]

I'd take a guy who can put up a line of

 

.285AVG/25HR/85RBI/.360OBP/.510SLG

 

Over something like saaaaay:

 

.234AVG/40HR/92RBI/.365OBP/.490SLG (Dunn, last year)

 

 

If Dunn could just learn to hit for average instead of power he could still hit 30+HR but he'd drive in way more runs, score more runs, and have absurd OBP/SLG.

 

So you'd take the guy who drives in fewer runs, and scores fewer runs (if the preferred OBP is lower, and his HR are lower, he will score less) all because you don't like the average?

 

 

This makes no sense.

 

What makes no sense is you seem to think a players OBP and HR totals a mainly tied to their runs scored production. You can have lower OBP and HR's and still score a truck load of runs.

 

The point is you specifically said you would prefer the player with a lower RBI total but claimed if he changed his style he'd hit more.

 

It's nonsensical.

 

R and RBI are team oriented. The only thing a player can do to affect his R and RBI totals are produce OBP and SLG.

 

In his defense, 285/360/510 is better than 234/365/490. I'm not sure if that's tkenm's main point or not, and I don't agree with judging players on RBI or Rs. However, I do think a team is better off with the former numbers.

 

It's not my main point. My main point originally was that Dunn's OBP should be higher considering the amount of walks he takes, and said if he just hit for better average instead of trying to clobber the ball, his OBP and OPS would skyrocket. I had mentioned that if he did that he'd probably score more runs and drive more RBI's in as well. Never once did I judge a player based on runs and RBI's, some people just assumed I did and the debate turned to a runs and RBI debacle.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Dunn would be fantastic on this team.

 

I want him. Would Soriano move to right to accomodate him though?

[cubbyvirus00]

why are people still talking about this.

 

 

its NOT going to happen, you can stop talking about it now.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

why are people still talking about this.

 

 

its NOT going to happen, you can stop talking about it now.

 

We could, but we're not.

[NCCubFan]

why are people still talking about this.

 

 

its NOT going to happen, you can stop talking about it now.

Or they can continue talking about it if they wish. You don't know for a fact that it won't happen, and it isn't for you to tell others what they can and cannot talk about.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

has DouchebagMcGee made his appearance yet?

[killthegoat06]

has DouchebagMcGee made his appearance yet?

 

Who's that?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

has DouchebagMcGee made his appearance yet?

 

Who's that?

 

mancrushonnomar

[Tracer Bullet]

I'd take a guy who can put up a line of

 

.285AVG/25HR/85RBI/.360OBP/.510SLG

 

Over something like saaaaay:

 

.234AVG/40HR/92RBI/.365OBP/.490SLG (Dunn, last year)

 

 

If Dunn could just learn to hit for average instead of power he could still hit 30+HR but he'd drive in way more runs, score more runs, and have absurd OBP/SLG.

 

So you'd take the guy who drives in fewer runs, and scores fewer runs (if the preferred OBP is lower, and his HR are lower, he will score less) all because you don't like the average?

 

 

This makes no sense.

 

What makes no sense is you seem to think a players OBP and HR totals a mainly tied to their runs scored production. You can have lower OBP and HR's and still score a truck load of runs.

 

The point is you specifically said you would prefer the player with a lower RBI total but claimed if he changed his style he'd hit more.

 

It's nonsensical.

 

R and RBI are team oriented. The only thing a player can do to affect his R and RBI totals are produce OBP and SLG.

 

In his defense, 285/360/510 is better than 234/365/490. I'm not sure if that's tkenm's main point or not, and I don't agree with judging players on RBI or Rs. However, I do think a team is better off with the former numbers.

 

It's not my main point. My main point originally was that Dunn's OBP should be higher considering the amount of walks he takes, and said if he just hit for better average instead of trying to clobber the ball, his OBP and OPS would skyrocket. I had mentioned that if he did that he'd probably score more runs and drive more RBI's in as well. Never once did I judge a player based on runs and RBI's, some people just assumed I did and the debate turned to a runs and RBI debacle.

 

Do you think Dunn goes into every season saying, "alright, let's hit .234 again!"? It's not like he's trying to not hit for average. But he's patient at the plate. He tries to murder balls in his zone and takes ones that aren't. so he gets a lot of XBH, lots of walks, and lots of Ks. The net result is a guy with an .891 OPS. If every single player on our team took that same approach with those results, we'd score a hundred zillion runs.

[Mizzou]

Thankfully, there's really no chance that the Cubs acquire Dunn this year.

[chopsx9]

Thankfully, there's really no chance that the Cubs acquire Dunn this year.

 

Amen! Dunn would make Murton look like Roberto Clemente. (I'd love to get him and Bonds in the same outfield and just sit back and watch pitchers head's explode) He's not average in the field, he's horrific. Obviously there are some big plusses offensively but I bet he'd be here two weeks before everyone would be all over him. He'd be a frustrating player to watch on a day to day basis. He takes a tremendous amount of called 3rd strikes I believe (someone correct me if I am remembering incorectly) He's the anti-Pierre really, isn't he?

 

I know the walks and HR's make up for a lot but..and I know I'll get crucified for this... but for my money a major leagure, fundametally, should be able to hit at least .260. If he can't I think its just a matter of time before a decline sets in and picks up speed.

 

I just don't think he'd be worth the players I am assuming it would take to get him. Someone mentioned Zambrano (currently tied for 2nd in the NL in wins)..NOT A CHANCE.

[Balsa]

As much as I would like Dunn, there's no room for him here.