Now roster refinement begins: Discussion & speculation

[davearm]

but SS is still a huge problem.....

Has anyone affiliated with the team indicated anything like this?

 

Rightly or wrongly, it seems like the club itself is feeling pretty good about having Izturis there.

[CuseCubFan69]

but SS is still a huge problem.....

Has anyone affiliated with the team indicated anything like this?

 

Rightly or wrongly, it seems like the club itself is feeling pretty good about having Izturis there.

 

I'm hoping they know something that we don't know about Izturis.

[mg420]

but SS is still a huge problem.....

Has anyone affiliated with the team indicated anything like this?

 

Rightly or wrongly, it seems like the club itself is feeling pretty good about having Izturis there.

 

agreed. despite the feelings on this board to the contrary, very few if any winning teams have all star players at all 8 positions. if izturis can stay healthy, hit .250 and play excellent defense i think the cubs will be very happy with his production. with 4 potential .900 ops guys (5 if you include murton), i highly doubt a light hitting ss will keep this team from contending.

[Rob]

but SS is still a huge problem.....

Has anyone affiliated with the team indicated anything like this?

 

Rightly or wrongly, it seems like the club itself is feeling pretty good about having Izturis there.

 

agreed. despite the feelings on this board to the contrary, very few if any winning teams have all star players at all 8 positions. if izturis can stay healthy, hit .250 and play excellent defense i think the cubs will be very happy with his production. with 4 potential .900 ops guys (5 if you include murton), i highly doubt a light hitting ss will keep this team from contending.

 

Building a team based on players who wont "keep this team from contending" is hardly a solid approach to take.

[goonys evil twin]

but SS is still a huge problem.....

Has anyone affiliated with the team indicated anything like this?

 

Rightly or wrongly, it seems like the club itself is feeling pretty good about having Izturis there.

 

agreed. despite the feelings on this board to the contrary, very few if any winning teams have all star players at all 8 positions. if izturis can stay healthy, hit .250 and play excellent defense i think the cubs will be very happy with his production. with 4 potential .900 ops guys (5 if you include murton), i highly doubt a light hitting ss will keep this team from contending.

Why is it that when ever anybody brings up the idea that Izturis (or anybody) could be a blackhole, people say you can't have 8 all stars? It's not about having 8 all stars, it's about not employing black holes. The people involved with the team haven't indicated SS is a huge problem, but they also never indicated Prior's health was a huge problem until after it already was. They are a rose colored glasses organization that thinks every player is likely to produce his best possible numbers. Just because they don't think he could be a problem does not mean that Izturis is not a problem. SS is a huge problem until somebody proves otherwise.

[mg420]

but SS is still a huge problem.....

Has anyone affiliated with the team indicated anything like this?

 

Rightly or wrongly, it seems like the club itself is feeling pretty good about having Izturis there.

 

agreed. despite the feelings on this board to the contrary, very few if any winning teams have all star players at all 8 positions. if izturis can stay healthy, hit .250 and play excellent defense i think the cubs will be very happy with his production. with 4 potential .900 ops guys (5 if you include murton), i highly doubt a light hitting ss will keep this team from contending.

 

Building a team based on players who wont "keep this team from contending" is hardly a solid approach to take.

 

of course not. the cubs should just trade izturis to the yankees for arod & mariano and then they would be set. somehow the cards managed to win last year with a light hitting short stop just like the sox won with one in 2005.

[mg420]

but SS is still a huge problem.....

Has anyone affiliated with the team indicated anything like this?

 

Rightly or wrongly, it seems like the club itself is feeling pretty good about having Izturis there.

 

agreed. despite the feelings on this board to the contrary, very few if any winning teams have all star players at all 8 positions. if izturis can stay healthy, hit .250 and play excellent defense i think the cubs will be very happy with his production. with 4 potential .900 ops guys (5 if you include murton), i highly doubt a light hitting ss will keep this team from contending.

Why is it that when ever anybody brings up the idea that Izturis (or anybody) could be a blackhole, people say you can't have 8 all stars? It's not about having 8 all stars, it's about not employing black holes. The people involved with the team haven't indicated SS is a huge problem, but they also never indicated Prior's health was a huge problem until after it already was. They are a rose colored glasses organization that thinks every player is likely to produce his best possible numbers. Just because they don't think he could be a problem does not mean that Izturis is not a problem. SS is a huge problem until somebody proves otherwise.

 

thank you for setting me straight. your wisdom has enlightened me.

[abuck1220]

but SS is still a huge problem.....

Has anyone affiliated with the team indicated anything like this?

 

Rightly or wrongly, it seems like the club itself is feeling pretty good about having Izturis there.

 

agreed. despite the feelings on this board to the contrary, very few if any winning teams have all star players at all 8 positions. if izturis can stay healthy, hit .250 and play excellent defense i think the cubs will be very happy with his production. with 4 potential .900 ops guys (5 if you include murton), i highly doubt a light hitting ss will keep this team from contending.

 

Building a team based on players who wont "keep this team from contending" is hardly a solid approach to take.

 

of course not. the cubs should just trade izturis to the yankees for arod & mariano and then they would be set. somehow the cards managed to win last year with a light hitting short stop just like the sox won with one in 2005.

 

so you're suggesting the best strategy would just be to put the worst offensive ss you can find in there? the cubs tried that last year, and it didn't work.

[Outshined_One]

As much as it pains me to say it, David Eckstein and Juan Uribe are much better hitters than Cesar Izturis. The only thing keeping Cesar Izturis from Neifi Perez levels of putridity is the fact that he's a very good defensive SS.

 

This team can win with someone like Izturis, but his terrible bat makes it more difficult. A SS who is even an average hitter would make this offense a lot better.

[Danny82]

but SS is still a huge problem.....

Has anyone affiliated with the team indicated anything like this?

 

Rightly or wrongly, it seems like the club itself is feeling pretty good about having Izturis there.

 

agreed. despite the feelings on this board to the contrary, very few if any winning teams have all star players at all 8 positions. if izturis can stay healthy, hit .250 and play excellent defense i think the cubs will be very happy with his production. with 4 potential .900 ops guys (5 if you include murton), i highly doubt a light hitting ss will keep this team from contending.

 

Building a team based on players who wont "keep this team from contending" is hardly a solid approach to take.

I fail to see where somebody said it was.

[Rob]

but SS is still a huge problem.....

Has anyone affiliated with the team indicated anything like this?

 

Rightly or wrongly, it seems like the club itself is feeling pretty good about having Izturis there.

 

agreed. despite the feelings on this board to the contrary, very few if any winning teams have all star players at all 8 positions. if izturis can stay healthy, hit .250 and play excellent defense i think the cubs will be very happy with his production. with 4 potential .900 ops guys (5 if you include murton), i highly doubt a light hitting ss will keep this team from contending.

 

Building a team based on players who wont "keep this team from contending" is hardly a solid approach to take.

 

of course not. the cubs should just trade izturis to the yankees for arod & mariano and then they would be set. somehow the cards managed to win last year with a light hitting short stop just like the sox won with one in 2005.

 

Wow.

 

All I was trying to say is that any decision by the front office to be complacent with Izturis at SS is a stupid decision. I'm not saying we couldn't possibly overcome an offensive black hole at SS, but Izturis is a far cry offensively from even Eckstein or Uribe.

[UK1679666180]

It would be an interesting move trying to trade Barrett for lack of defense and then keep the spot warm with Blanco/Soto for Fox. The Cubs have a potentially interesting scenario with Fox and Robinson at C.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Blanco has also had the luxury of being the primary catcher for Carlos Zambrano and Greg Maddux during that time. Y

 

You made the point that had immediatley popped into my head earlier in the thread. CERA's are only potentially interesting if the catchers are catching the same pitchers.

 

I wholeheartedly agree.

[fromthestretch]

but SS is still a huge problem.....

Has anyone affiliated with the team indicated anything like this?

 

Rightly or wrongly, it seems like the club itself is feeling pretty good about having Izturis there.

 

agreed. despite the feelings on this board to the contrary, very few if any winning teams have all star players at all 8 positions. if izturis can stay healthy, hit .250 and play excellent defense i think the cubs will be very happy with his production. with 4 potential .900 ops guys (5 if you include murton), i highly doubt a light hitting ss will keep this team from contending.

 

Building a team based on players who wont "keep this team from contending" is hardly a solid approach to take.

 

of course not. the cubs should just trade izturis to the yankees for arod & mariano and then they would be set. somehow the cards managed to win last year with a light hitting short stop just like the sox won with one in 2005.

 

And the Yankees won with a very good offensive shortstop in '98, '99, and 2000. What's your point?

 

If Izturis were to put up a .350 OBP like Eckstein did in '06 or get his slugging over .400 like Uribe in '05, while still providing good defense, I don't think you're going to hear too many people complain. Instead, the Cubs will be lucky to get an OBP better than .310 and a SLG% better than .340 out of Izturis.

[Pushfrog98]

would we be ok with the 2004 version of Izturis?

 

.288avg, .330OBP, .381SLG, 25sb, and the all important gold glove.

 

If he puts those numbers up again, I have zero problems with him being our SS. Would I prefer the '99 version of Nomar? Heck yes. oh to dream.

 

Sorry, back to what I was really talking about... I HOPE Cesar can reproduce his 2004 numbers, but with the hamstring injury, I don't think he'll have the same speed he had before. I also think it might affect his range. If he proves to be a solid player, by all means, play the little guy... but darn it if I am not pulling for Theriot to snag someone's starting job.

[CuseCubFan69]

What is Izturis's minor league history? I know he was in Syracuse and he really didn't show me much that a 4 HR 270/310 type hitter. If he does have a great season with the glove it would be nice.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

What is Izturis's minor league history? I know he was in Syracuse and he really didn't show me much that a 4 HR 270/310 type hitter. If he does have a great season with the glove it would be nice.

 

Minor league career: .262/.297/.332/.629

Major league career: .259/.295/.336/.631

[Danny82]

Wow, that's eerie.

[CubinNY]

What is Izturis's minor league history? I know he was in Syracuse and he really didn't show me much that a 4 HR 270/310 type hitter. If he does have a great season with the glove it would be nice.

 

He's been in the league long enough to that he will likely produce +.10 or -.10 of his career numbers. The thing is he hasn't been healthy for two years. I predict:

 

@ .270/.315/.360

 

Fangraphs has projections

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=656&position=3BSS

 

Not putrid, but the Cubs need a lot better than not putrid performance.

[CuseCubFan69]

What is Izturis's minor league history? I know he was in Syracuse and he really didn't show me much that a 4 HR 270/310 type hitter. If he does have a great season with the glove it would be nice.

 

Minor league career: .262/.297/.332/.629

Major league career: .259/.295/.336/.631

 

Eek...that's worse than I thought! He has sub written all over him, if that, thanks TT.

[CuseCubFan69]

What is Izturis's minor league history? I know he was in Syracuse and he really didn't show me much that a 4 HR 270/310 type hitter. If he does have a great season with the glove it would be nice.

 

He's been in the league long enough to that he will likely produce +.10 or -.10 of his career numbers. The thing is he hasn't been healthy for two years. I predict:

 

@ .270/.315/.360

 

Fangraphs has projections

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=656&position=3BSS

 

Not putrid, but the Cubs need a lot better than not putrid performance.

 

Hey I almost guessed that one right! My record now is 2 right and 5624 wrong! Thanks CiNY!

[goonys evil twin]

would we be ok with the 2004 version of Izturis?

 

.288avg, .330OBP, .381SLG, 25sb, and the all important gold glove.

 

If he puts those numbers up again, I have zero problems with him being our SS. Would I prefer the '99 version of Nomar? Heck yes. oh to dream.

 

Sorry, back to what I was really talking about... I HOPE Cesar can reproduce his 2004 numbers, but with the hamstring injury, I don't think he'll have the same speed he had before. I also think it might affect his range. If he proves to be a solid player, by all means, play the little guy... but darn it if I am not pulling for Theriot to snag someone's starting job.

 

If every Cubs player repeated his best season's numbers, this team would win 100 games easily. The problem is always with the likelihood of such luck.

[CubColtPacer]

What is Izturis's minor league history? I know he was in Syracuse and he really didn't show me much that a 4 HR 270/310 type hitter. If he does have a great season with the glove it would be nice.

 

Minor league career: .262/.297/.332/.629

Major league career: .259/.295/.336/.631

 

Eek...that's worse than I thought! He has sub written all over him, if that, thanks TT.

 

One thing that has to be remembered is that Izturis got pushed through each level. He really shouldn't have been promoted nearly as fast as he did, but his defense pushed him through every level. Because of that, he was always hitting at a level or two above his hitting development level. When he got to the majors, it was the same way. He came in at 22, and wasn't offesnively ready whatsoever and put up a .556. The next year he got a little better and put up a .597. Finally, he started to catch up with the speed he should have been developed at in the first place and had a decent 2004 (.711) and a great start before injuries to 2005 (.810 or so before the injuries at the start of June). Since then he's had injuries that have hindered his development.

If he continues his developmental curve where he left off, it will be great-if the injuries hurt his game permanently, then he certainly has the potential to be awful. I'm just not sure how much value his minor league and first year or two in the majors have anymore when he was playing in leagues that he had no business playing in at the time. Every year he repeated levels though in the minor or major leagues until the injuries though, he improved his numbers significantly.

[CubColtPacer]

I was going to put this as an edit to my previous post, but I just decided to tack it on as an extra post.

 

Let me try to state this a litle more clear, athough I'll leave the ramblings up there at the top. What I'm saying is that those career numbers for Izturis, both minor and major leagues are somewhat misleading. Izturis has not been consistently near those numbers (meaning that he didn't remain static, which would have showed that he wasn't developing, and neither did he go up then down then up then down. At each league, he continued developing until he could hit against that league, and every league the team promoted him way too fast right when he was starting to look decent at that league and not letting him look good in any league. Look at his numbers from age 17:

 

17-low A-.190/.241/.216-with this performance, they promoted him

18-A ball-.262/.297/.305-with this again, they shouldn't have but they pushed him up to high A

19-high A ball-.308/.337/.422-for a defensive shortstop, these numbers would be worthy of a move up to double A-did they do that? No-straight up to Triple A instead

20-Triple A-.218/.253/.278-ugh, that's what happens when you move a still developing hitter up two levels-at least they had him repeat this level

21-Triple A-.292/.310/.374-better, but he could really have used one more year in Triple A instead of going straight to the majors. He also perfromed ok in the majors in limited at-bats.

22-Majors-.232/.253/.303-again, another league that he wasn't ready for-he should have been in Triple A this year

23-Majors-.251/.282/.315-this should have been his first year in the majors, and it's terrible, but that's not too surprising for a defensive shortstop who's bat is developing slower than his glove. It is 30 points better than the previous year though.

24-Majors-.288/.330/.381-Now he's getting it. It's the first time in his career that he's been able to stay at one level long enough to finally catch up after all those promotions, and he improved by over a 100 points.

25-Majors-.342/.387/.424-these are his April and May numbers before his injuries. The Dodgers tried to keep him in the lineup, which led to his putrid numbers until they shut him down, and then he's had 1 1/2 years of injury-filled bad numbers since with limited at-bats (since he missed a large part of 2006 and the last 2 months of 2005).

 

The key question is the injuries-will it keep him from developing like he had been? Before that though, Izturis was showing every sign of coming into his own and becoming at least an average shortstop offensively. It just remains to be seen if he can re-capture that with all the injuries and time away from baseball.

[Amazing_Grace]

I was going to put this as an edit to my previous post, but I just decided to tack it on as an extra post.

 

Let me try to state this a litle more clear, athough I'll leave the ramblings up there at the top. What I'm saying is that those career numbers for Izturis, both minor and major leagues are somewhat misleading. Izturis has not been consistently near those numbers (meaning that he didn't remain static, which would have showed that he wasn't developing, and neither did he go up then down then up then down. At each league, he continued developing until he could hit against that league, and every league the team promoted him way too fast right when he was starting to look decent at that league and not letting him look good in any league. Look at his numbers from age 17:

 

17-low A-.190/.241/.216-with this performance, they promoted him

18-A ball-.262/.297/.305-with this again, they shouldn't have but they pushed him up to high A

19-high A ball-.308/.337/.422-for a defensive shortstop, these numbers would be worthy of a move up to double A-did they do that? No-straight up to Triple A instead

20-Triple A-.218/.253/.278-ugh, that's what happens when you move a still developing hitter up two levels-at least they had him repeat this level

21-Triple A-.292/.310/.374-better, but he could really have used one more year in Triple A instead of going straight to the majors. He also perfromed ok in the majors in limited at-bats.

22-Majors-.232/.253/.303-again, another league that he wasn't ready for-he should have been in Triple A this year

23-Majors-.251/.282/.315-this should have been his first year in the majors, and it's terrible, but that's not too surprising for a defensive shortstop who's bat is developing slower than his glove. It is 30 points better than the previous year though.

24-Majors-.288/.330/.381-Now he's getting it. It's the first time in his career that he's been able to stay at one level long enough to finally catch up after all those promotions, and he improved by over a 100 points.

25-Majors-.342/.387/.424-these are his April and May numbers before his injuries. The Dodgers tried to keep him in the lineup, which led to his putrid numbers until they shut him down, and then he's had 1 1/2 years of injury-filled bad numbers since with limited at-bats (since he missed a large part of 2006 and the last 2 months of 2005).

 

The key question is the injuries-will it keep him from developing like he had been? Before that though, Izturis was showing every sign of coming into his own and becoming at least an average shortstop offensively. It just remains to be seen if he can re-capture that with all the injuries and time away from baseball.

 

This is a good post. Still doesn't really explain why Hendry felt he was worth trading for. Would it have been so bad to just hold on to Maddux for another year. It would have eliminated the need for Marquis.