Marty York: Cubs Planning Trade for Vernon?

[RynoRules]

Why are we trying to upgrade CF with Pie in the wings? Anyone?

 

I remember the Cubs passing on Jim Thome because Hee Seop Choi was waiting in the wings. Perhaps they remember that as well.

 

I also remember a lot of fans up in arms when we traded Lee and gave up Hee Seop, claiming we just took on salary for what will one day be equal production at the same position.

 

Uhh .... not quite.

 

Hindsight=20/20

 

That's a convenient answer: When I'm right its b/c I know what I am talking about, and when I am wrong I am really right b/c hindisght is 20/20.

 

The Lee trade was as good then as it is now. Its one of the small handful of deals Hendry has made that had a measurable positive outcome. If only there were more like it....

[goonys evil twin]

Why are we trying to upgrade CF with Pie in the wings? Anyone?

 

I remember the Cubs passing on Jim Thome because Hee Seop Choi was waiting in the wings. Perhaps they remember that as well.

 

I also remember a lot of fans up in arms when we traded Lee and gave up Hee Seop, claiming we just took on salary for what will one day be equal production at the same position.

 

Uhh .... not quite.

 

Hindsight=20/20

 

That's a convenient answer: When I'm right its b/c I know what I am talking about, and when I am wrong I am really right b/c hindisght is 20/20.

 

The Lee trade was as good then as it is now. Its one of the small handful of deals Hendry has made that had a measurable positive outcome. If only there were more like it....

 

I thought it was an inefficient use of resources. And if Lee didn't have the breakout 2005, it would still look that way (since he was nothing but an average 1B before that). But he did breakout, so I was wrong. Still wasn't enough to offset all the other inefficient moves made by Hendry.

[jmajew]

Barrett isn't new to the position(in hindsight I worded my post poorly), but in terms of wear and tear on the body, the fact that he wasn't exclusively a catcher coming up is a big deal. AJP had 641 minor league games, and as far as I can tell nearly all of them were at catcher(baseball cube lists that as his position). Barrett on the other hand was a SS in rookie ball, then he caught for two seasons, and then he was a "C-3B" or "3B-C" for the remainder of his minor league career. That's at least 250 fewer games at the catching position than AJP, which isn't a small thing at all.

 

I'm not sure being a c/3b is all that much more easy on the body than just being a catcher in the minors. There is a lot more use of DH's down there, and catchers often get to do that. That being said, 250 fewer games is meaningfuly, but it does not negate the 6200 major league innings, and the repeated injuries he's absorbed. I'm not saying he's going to fall apart today. I'm talking mostly about Barret post-2007, when he's a free agent with over 7000 innings behind the plate in the majors, and 31. Like Lee and Ramirez this past year, Barrett is a pending free agent. And I think he's a huge question.

 

Sorry for just jumping in the convo, but wouldn't the best thing to do with Barrett keep him for the start of the season then trade him at the trade deadline if we are out of it. I'm sure teams like the Dodgers, Padres, and Angels would all love to have him at some point. His value will be much higher at the deadline. Sorry if all of this has already been said.

 

Second, if we are going to trade Barrett we should look at trading him to the Tigers for Bonderman. They can have both Pudge and Barrett catchign and have Pudge catch 100 games a year and then DHing and then they can let Barrett catch the other 62 and then either use him at DH or third base. This is just a thought. I'm also sure Barrett could play 1b for them full time if they wanted.

[goonys evil twin]

Sorry for just jumping in the convo, but wouldn't the best thing to do with Barrett keep him for the start of the season then trade him at the trade deadline if we are out of it. I'm sure teams like the Dodgers, Padres, and Angels would all love to have him at some point. His value will be much higher at the deadline. Sorry if all of this has already been said.

 

It might be the best option.

 

But what do you do if the team stays in the race all year? Let him walk at year's end? Sign him to a 3-year deal? Try and get him to change positions?

[craig]

Wells makes a lot of sense for the Cubs. He's a really, really good CF both defensively and offensively. The cubs have money and can pay. Wilken drafted wells, loves wells, and he's the best player he's ever drafted, probably.

 

But, the Cubs make no sense to Toronto, I don't think. Toronto has a chance to contend, now, a better chance than we do. They've spent a lot recently. They don't want to trade Wells for minor leaguers , and our pool isn't that great in the first place. Other than relief pitchers and iffy young rotation prospects, what besides minor-leaguers do we have to offer?

 

Barrett? We don't want to trade him. And if Toronto was shopping Wells due to impending free agency, why on earth would they want to take on an impending free agent? It's nice to think we'd like Wells, and we'll make an offer. It's hard to imagine constructing an offer that Toronto would take seriously.

 

 

I like Wells a lot. He's been consistent around .200 IsoP and .050 IsoD, and has normally been up near 30 HR's. At this point in his career, I'd expect him to be consistently above .800 OPS, I'd probably anticipate .850 being more normal, and figure he's got a chance if he improves or if this past was no fluke to push .900 OPS at times. That's pretty good output for a good-fielding CF.

 

He is now basically what Pie might dream of becoming, although it's doubtful that Pie's HR's will be as high, his K's as modest, or his batting average quite as high. Even if Pie reaches that someday (which I hope), it's going to take quite a while.

 

Most likely even in his prime, Pie won't match Wells's better seasons.

 

I would trade Pie for Wells straight up in a second, even with Wells contract and impending free agency.

Edited November 3, 2006 by craig

[jmajew]

Sorry for just jumping in the convo, but wouldn't the best thing to do with Barrett keep him for the start of the season then trade him at the trade deadline if we are out of it. I'm sure teams like the Dodgers, Padres, and Angels would all love to have him at some point. His value will be much higher at the deadline. Sorry if all of this has already been said.

 

It might be the best option.

 

But what do you do if the team stays in the race all year? Let him walk at year's end? Sign him to a 3-year deal? Try and get him to change positions?

 

If we are in the race and genuinely believe we can win the World Series we obviously keep him and then figure it out at the end of the year. I'd like to get him to switch positions but it would hurt his value. Could he play 2b? I know he has played SS in the minors. His numbers at 2b would be just as valuable as they are at C. If worst comes to worst he could be put in the OF, but out there he is clearly not as valuable. IMO we should either move him to 2b if he can or trade him now for pitching. I hate saying that cuz I love the guy but it is best for the Cubs organization.

Edited November 3, 2006 by jmajew

[UK1679666180]

Wells makes a lot of sense for the Cubs. He's a really, really good CF both defensively and offensively. The cubs have money and can pay. Wilken drafted wells, loves wells, and he's the best player he's ever drafted, probably.

 

I like Wells a lot. He's been consistent around .200 IsoP and .050 IsoD, and has normally been up near 30 HR's. At this point in his career, I'd expect him to be consistently above .800 OPS, I'd probably anticipate .850 being more normal, and figure he's got a chance if he improves or if this past was no fluke to push .900 OPS at times. That's pretty good output for a good-fielding CF.

 

He is now basically what Pie might dream of becoming, although it's doubtful that Pie's HR's will be as high, his K's as modest, or his batting average quite as high. Even if Pie reaches that someday (which I hope), it's going to take quite a while.

 

Most likely even in his prime, Pie won't match Wells's better seasons.

 

I would trade Pie for Wells straight up in a second, even with Wells contract and impending free agency.

 

I agree with you as far as Pie's ceiling compared to Wells' current production, but even with the intentions to sign him long-term, could the Cubs build this roster to consist. make the playoffs during the tenure of the core?

 

As a Cubs fan, I would not be upset if a trade like that transpired assuming he's inked beyond the year (I don't see a reasonable scenario where they could make that leap in the span of a year). Without the advantage of a productive farm system, could they make the nec. improvements to win in the next 3 or so years?

 

Those question should help decide whether or not, they look for the next 10 years or the next 3.

[Outshined_One]

The question is also how much it'll cost monetarily to keep Wells beyond this season.

 

He's a good player, but not worth $15m a year.

[JeffH]

When Piniella was hired, there were reports that he and Hendry had had some conversations about certain players who needed to go, or something to that effect.

 

During Piniella's Mariners years, his primary catcher was Dan Wilson, who, by most accounts, was one of the best defensive catchers in the American League.

 

I wonder if Piniella has asked for a better defensive catcher and, if so, will Barrett be sacrificed in trade (possibly in a deal for Wells)?

 

How good a defender was Joe Oliver (his primary catcher on his World Champion Reds team)?

[BigbadB]

I don't recall how good Oliver was defensively, but Piniella had him in Seattle as well.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

I really don't understand all the Barrett love, he's not that great. Crummy defense and a decidedly lousy run producer. Estrada is supposedly on the block, if I could trade for him and use Barrett to get Wells, I'm there, 100%.

 

Also, count me in for trading Z for A-Rod, IF we win the Matsuzaka posting. Carlos is about to get EXTREMELY expensive, and I'm concerned about his durability--not to mention his maddeningly increasing BB totals.

Zambrano's trade value will never be higher than it is right now.

[fromthestretch]

I don't recall how good Oliver was defensively, but Piniella had him in Seattle as well.

 

I really hope that Joe Oliver is not the starting catcher for the Cubs in 2007. :lol:

[Warpticon]

I really don't understand all the Barrett love, he's not that great. Crummy defense and a decidedly lousy run producer.

 

What?

[CubsWin]

I really don't understand all the Barrett love, he's not that great. Crummy defense and a decidedly lousy run producer.

 

What?

I don't get that statement either.

[cubweiser03]

Wells makes a lot of sense for the Cubs. He's a really, really good CF both defensively and offensively. The cubs have money and can pay. Wilken drafted wells, loves wells, and he's the best player he's ever drafted, probably.

 

I like Wells a lot. He's been consistent around .200 IsoP and .050 IsoD, and has normally been up near 30 HR's. At this point in his career, I'd expect him to be consistently above .800 OPS, I'd probably anticipate .850 being more normal, and figure he's got a chance if he improves or if this past was no fluke to push .900 OPS at times. That's pretty good output for a good-fielding CF.

 

He is now basically what Pie might dream of becoming, although it's doubtful that Pie's HR's will be as high, his K's as modest, or his batting average quite as high. Even if Pie reaches that someday (which I hope), it's going to take quite a while.

 

Most likely even in his prime, Pie won't match Wells's better seasons.

 

I would trade Pie for Wells straight up in a second, even with Wells contract and impending free agency.

 

I agree with you as far as Pie's ceiling compared to Wells' current production, but even with the intentions to sign him long-term, could the Cubs build this roster to consist. make the playoffs during the tenure of the core?

 

As a Cubs fan, I would not be upset if a trade like that transpired assuming he's inked beyond the year (I don't see a reasonable scenario where they could make that leap in the span of a year). Without the advantage of a productive farm system, could they make the nec. improvements to win in the next 3 or so years?

 

Those question should help decide whether or not, they look for the next 10 years or the next 3.

 

This is definatly a tough one. A bird in hand is a better than 2 in the bush (no that is not a Dusty quote :) ). Pie is not a given and his minor league number reflect Veron Wells #s at the best. BUT it is not a given, he could flame out. Sure Pie is 6 years younger but eventually if he lives up the expectations he will cost veron wells money even in his arbitration elgible years. Its hard not to fast-forward the situation being a big market team like the Cubs. IF Pie is going to put up Pujols/Soriano #s in the next 3 years, non arby elgible and close to major league mininums id say no, but im inclined to believe that he aint.

[NorthsideAvenger]

I really don't understand all the Barrett love, he's not that great. Crummy defense and a decidedly lousy run producer.

 

What?

 

Apparently, if you don't produce like Mike Piazza or even a Jorge Posada/Ivan Rodriguez in their primes, then any catcher is a "decidedly lousy run producer."

 

Hey, Don

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=3937

 

(as Desi Arnaz)

 

You have sum 'splainin' to do, Don?