Brenly Calls out ARam, Again!

[thedaymen]

Mizzou...thats exactly what they're saying.

[goonys evil twin]

I guess I don't understand... are you saying that you don't mind if a player doesn't hustle if he puts up good numbers? Cause I'm assuming that if Neifi Perez were as lazy as Aramis, he'd be constantly blasted on here. But because Aramis puts up good numbers, it's okay for him to not hustle?

 

Not okay, but not worth going bonkers over. I've seen the collective wisdom of fans run players out of town, and I don't trust Cubs management to make smart decisions. So I'd rather not see the fans and media do all they can to run Aramis away. Neifi Perez's abysmal numbers are enough to blast him about, the hustle thing would be a small sidebar.

 

The fact is, the most important thing to winning games is productivity. Productive players win games, even some lazy ones. Hard working guys who don't produce don't win games. And my number 1 goal as a Cubs fan is to maximize wins, not effort.

[frostwyrm]

May as well watch the NBA if you like a sport where it's acceptable for the stars to loaf when they feel like it.

[Chocolate Milk]

I guess I don't understand... are you saying that you don't mind if a player doesn't hustle if he puts up good numbers?

 

In a word, yes. Of course I'd like him to hustle but we can't really justify running our productive players off the team for something like that. It's not like we have a glut of power hitters. It's not like you can't win with a guy like Aramis. I would say Manny is similar in terms of his hustle (I could be wrong here) but I don't think anyone would mind if he was in Left Field for the Cubs.

 

He should be criticized for his lack of hustle, but lets not pretend like it's killing the team or we should get rid of him because of it. As a franchise, we have much much bigger fish to fry.

[goonys evil twin]

May as well watch the NBA if you like a sport where it's acceptable for the stars to loaf when they feel like it.

 

I think "acceptable" is a stretch. I want the Cubs to do whatever they can to motivate Aramis to hustle more. And I really wish he had the self motivation to do it on his own. I am not happy with the laziness.

 

But I want to see them win over all else. And Aramis's production is far too difficult to replace for us to justify running him out of town based on laziness. If this team had more good hitters, but were still coming up short, I might be more open to the idea of replacing him. But unless you can guarantee similar or better production, you simply cannot get rid of Aramis. And when the media and fans gang up on a player, it can affect management decisions.

 

They already think speed and defense are more important than OBP and SLG. I don't need them feeling comfortable dumping a guy based on laziness when he's one of the few capable of providing OBP and SLG.

[Mizzou]

I guess I don't understand... are you saying that you don't mind if a player doesn't hustle if he puts up good numbers? Cause I'm assuming that if Neifi Perez were as lazy as Aramis, he'd be constantly blasted on here. But because Aramis puts up good numbers, it's okay for him to not hustle?

 

The fact is, the most important thing to winning games is productivity. Productive players win games, even some lazy ones. Hard working guys who don't produce don't win games. And my number 1 goal as a Cubs fan is to maximize wins, not effort.

Yeah but that's just the thing. Hustling leads to a basehit rather than a groudout. Hustling means a double rather than a single. Hustling leads to more productivity. I'm not advocating dumping Aramis cause he doesn't hustle, but it really irks me to see him loaf it out there. If he'd give it his all, he'd be a much more productive player. And that's what we all want.

[goonys evil twin]

Yeah but that's just the thing. Hustling leads to a basehit rather than a groudout. Hustling means a double rather than a single. Hustling leads to more productivity. I'm not advocating dumping Aramis cause he doesn't hustle, but it really irks me to see him loaf it out there. If he'd give it his all, he'd be a much more productive player. And that's what we all want.

 

But the fact is he is a productive hitter. Who is to say that if he hustled more on groundballs he wouldn't tire himself out quicker or get hurt more frequently? That might sound absurd, but simply hustling more doesn't guarantee greater productivity in the long haul. Yes, I'd like to see him give it his all as well. And maybe as he matures he will do just that. But remember, Sammy Sosa gave it his all the vast majority of his career, running around like a madman. Lots of people still criticized his effort, selfishness and recklessness. The problem is there are so few ideal players, and no perfect players. Everybody has flaws.

[frostwyrm]

May as well watch the NBA if you like a sport where it's acceptable for the stars to loaf when they feel like it.

 

I think "acceptable" is a stretch. I want the Cubs to do whatever they can to motivate Aramis to hustle more. And I really wish he had the self motivation to do it on his own. I am not happy with the laziness.

 

But I want to see them win over all else. And Aramis's production is far too difficult to replace for us to justify running him out of town based on laziness. If this team had more good hitters, but were still coming up short, I might be more open to the idea of replacing him. But unless you can guarantee similar or better production, you simply cannot get rid of Aramis. And when the media and fans gang up on a player, it can affect management decisions.

 

They already think speed and defense are more important than OBP and SLG. I don't need them feeling comfortable dumping a guy based on laziness when he's one of the few capable of providing OBP and SLG.

All number-crunching aside, shameless displays of laziness are arrogant and insulting. It's a character issue, which makes it hard to overlook. It also makes the games a lot less fun to watch. Sports is entertainment after all.

[TheDude]

What people are really saying is, if you're productivity is above arbitrary personal value XYZ, then we'll forgive your individual flaws. But if you're productivity isn't above that, then we'll rag on you mercilessly for every flaw you have.

 

Kind of. Although it's not really arbitrary. Basically, if you are productive, you are helping the team, and I don't care too much about all the side issues. If you are not productive, you are hurting the team and it's a lot harder to look past other flaws.

 

Ramirez is far from ideal. The ideal player produces, hustles every play, fields flawlessly, is a tremendous teammates, always stays healthy, never complains, gets his teammates to work harder and play better, has a good relationship with the fans, etc. But there aren't too many "ideal players" out there. So, it's a lot smarter to concentrate on the overall productivity.

 

I understand your point, though it's a little tough to swallow, especially with regards to Ramirez. He simply disappeared when the Cubs season was at it's crucial point (talking about productivity), which then enflamed fans who were already annoyed with lack of hustle.

 

His productivity was below that line, but he seemed to still get a free pass, despite being the most uninspiring ballplayer on the team.

[goonys evil twin]

His productivity was below that line, but he seemed to still get a free pass, despite being the most uninspiring ballplayer on the team.

 

I was annoyed, but the "free pass" was because he had produced before, and I expected his numbers to improve by the time all was said and done.

[BigbadB1679666149]

It's Hendry's fault Aramis is expected to carry a whole team.

It's Dusty's fault that Aramis is allowed to loaf around the bases.

It's a character issue that Aramis would even consider loafing around the bases as an acceptable practice.

 

It really pisses me off to see someone loafing out there. But, when management allows it, is it really the players fault?

 

The longer Dusty is here, the easier it is to see why players love playing for him.

[Derwood]

Let's be honest. Todd Walker does the same thing. How many times has he hit a shallow pop up to the outfield, spun around, tossed his bat and jogged to first? Maybe his laziness hasn't gotten as much press because his pop ups haven't fallen in and his lack of hustle hasn't cost a base.

[mlarner]

It's Hendry's fault Aramis is expected to carry a whole team.

It's Dusty's fault that Aramis is allowed to loaf around the bases.

It's a character issue that Aramis would even consider loafing around the bases as an acceptable practice.

 

It really pisses me off to see someone loafing out there. But, when management allows it, is it really the players fault?

 

The longer Dusty is here, the easier it is to see why players love playing for him.

 

What are you talking about? Dusty holds his boys accountable:

 

http://www.suntimes.com/output/cubs/cst-spt-cubnt08.html

 

Baker said Friday he talked to Ramirez after the third baseman admired a deep drive running to first Thursday, thinking it could he a homer. Instead, it caromed off the Miller Park wall, and Ramirez was thrown out when he tried to stretch a double into a triple.

 

''We talked to him about it and talk to him about it all the time,'' Baker said.

 

''He's been hustling a lot more. Before, the chances of him pulling something in his leg was big.''

 

That what you call tough love right there, man. Dusty can be pretty harsh when he need to be...

:roll:

Edited July 25, 2006 by mlarner

[CubbieRich]

Protecting your boy Aramis. Dusty and Brenly call him out for not hustling in a matter of a few weeks, but you can count on the Sheep to look the other way and ba-a-a excuses. Never mind that this is his 2nd straight team to have the same objections to his play. But as long as he hits meaningless HR when the club is 20 games under .500-WHEA!!! Where was he in April? In May?

 

ARam is the second highest paid everyday player on the team and as such, should set an example. He's only the 6th or 7th best 3rd basemen in the NL anyway.

[SouthSideRyan]

Protecting your boy Aramis. Dusty and Brenly call him out for not hustling in a matter of a few weeks, but you can count on the Sheep to look the other way and ba-a-a excuses. Never mind that this is his 2nd straight team to have the same objections to his play. But as long as he hits meaningless HR when the club is 20 games under .500-WHEA!!! Where was he in April? In May?

 

Where were you in '03? In '04?

[soapy]

Protecting your boy Aramis. Dusty and Brenly call him out for not hustling in a matter of a few weeks, but you can count on the Sheep to look the other way and ba-a-a excuses. Never mind that this is his 2nd straight team to have the same objections to his play. But as long as he hits meaningless HR when the club is 20 games under .500-WHEA!!! Where was he in April? In May?

 

ARam is the second highest paid everyday player on the team and as such, should set an example. He's only the 6th or 7th best 3rd basemen in the NL anyway.

 

I don't understand. Who is making excuses? Who is saying that it's okay? All anyone is saying is that it's not as big of a deal as it's made out to be. I think some Ramirez' strongest supporters in this thread have said they aren't happy with his lack of hustle, but it's probably not even in the top 10 problems with the Cubs.

[Bruno7481]

It's Hendry's fault Aramis is expected to carry a whole team.

It's Dusty's fault that Aramis is allowed to loaf around the bases.

It's a character issue that Aramis would even consider loafing around the bases as an acceptable practice.

 

It really pisses me off to see someone loafing out there. But, when management allows it, is it really the players fault?

 

The longer Dusty is here, the easier it is to see why players love playing for him.

 

Maybe it is the coach speaking in me, but it is always the players fault, even if management condones it in a roundabout way.

 

Obviously Hendry and Baker are to blame as well. But just because they seem to allow it to a degree, it doesn't excuse Ramirez.

 

As a player, you know when you are doing things the right way and when your not. It all comes back to the player and the decisions/behavior that they control and are responsible for. It is a cliche but you can control two things 100% of the time, your attitude and desire.

 

A coach/manager/boss etc can't make you care, it comes from within.

[hitamprun]

On the spectrum of problems that are keeping the Cubs from competing, Aramis not hustling probably isn't going to crack the top 10.

 

No it's not, but it's a problem that is allowed to fester. Do you want young guys on your team watching him as an example? I don't think so. It's the same thing with Prior, I wouldn't want my young pitchers seeing him complaining of discomfort every time the wind blows, set's a very bad example.

 

If these players don't have the self pride to put forth the effort, it's up to the manager to instill it. If that doesn't work, you get rid of them, unless it is ok to have these types of players setting the tone.

[BigbadB1679666149]

Maybe it is the coach speaking in me, but it is always the players fault, even if management condones it in a roundabout way.

 

Obviously Hendry and Baker are to blame as well. But just because they seem to allow it to a degree, it doesn't excuse Ramirez.

 

As a player, you know when you are doing things the right way and when your not. It all comes back to the player and the decisions/behavior that they control and are responsible for. It is a cliche but you can control two things 100% of the time, your attitude and desire.

 

A coach/manager/boss etc can't make you care, it comes from within.

 

Agreed. As a coach, I'm certain you gave some pine time to anyone guilty of not hustling. If talking to a guy over and over isn't going to get the message across, then the next message should be to let someone else play. This gives notice that it won't be tolerated.

[1908]

you can count on the Sheep to look the other way and ba-a-a excuses.

The sheep, huh? Can you ever make a point without insulting someone. I don't think so anymore.

[goonys evil twin]

It is a cliche but you can control two things 100% of the time, your attitude and desire.

 

Maybe it is a cliche (I've never heard it), but it's certainly not true. Guys act out of character quite frequently. Temper is a big part of attitude, and people vary in their ability to control that. Desire can come and go, as evidenced by the frequent listless days players and teams experience. Exhaustion can negatively affect both your attitude and desire. This is especially true in a sport like baseball, which is a marathon. That type of talk might work in football, or lower level baseball that has fewer games, where you prepare for a limited amount of contests. But in pro baseball, attitude and desire will fluctuate throught the long season, no matter how macho somebody wants to talk about always giving 110%.

[TheDude]

His productivity was below that line, but he seemed to still get a free pass, despite being the most uninspiring ballplayer on the team.

 

I was annoyed, but the "free pass" was because he had produced before, and I expected his numbers to improve by the time all was said and done.

 

In an interesting coincidence, the same can be said of Juan Pierre. Both players will likely end up with stats under career norms (but not by leaps and bounds), but Pierre's lack of productivity in the first half will be lamented far more than Ramirez's because of the standards set by those career norms. It goes back to the acceptable production line.

 

But, one of the points I haven't seen expressed implicitly is Baker and Ramirez's lack of understanding of the fan perception. If you are a fan backing a losing team, a bottom 5 team no less, lack of hustle is simply unacceptable. It shows a lack of care for winning by that player (and coach), and if fans believe they care more about winning than players do, producitivty becomes irrelevent in determing whether they like that player.

 

Fans don't think with their brains most times, they think with their hearts. And Ramirez has no heart whatsoever. He doesn't act like soeone who wants to win, just show up, hit a respectable number of homeruns, and collect a paycheck. He is easy to dislike.

 

So for me personally, Ramirez is not a fit for this team. When it really matters, he doesn't show up or care. Bury him on a top 5 offensive team where he can fly under the radar. The Cubs need someone capable of being a carry-the-load guy behind Lee and they need a big time producer, so it has to come from 3B, LF, or RF next year.

[hawkeyecub]

ARam 'spectating' again on the bases. Jones double down the leftfield line, ARam dogs it to third. Too busy looking at the ball and not picking up Quade at third base and hustling.

 

Brenly says "most Cubs would have scored easily".

 

But Bob, some Cub fans think it's OK to dog it. After all, we can't ask them to do too much. Yeah, right.

 

If only he hustled more-that's all that you need! Hit .220, get an OBP of .260, but try real hard...then we'll win the World Series!

 

Don't forget scrappy guys. We need more of those! A few gritty ones too!

 

Just like Aramis' lack of hustle shouldn't be considered one of the top few problems of this team, I don't think we should have these same sarcastic replies every time it's brought up.

I wasn't the #1 fan of Augie Ojeda. I don't want a team of Doug Dascenzo's. But I also don't think we or anyone in the organization should accept a lack of hustle or poor attitude at times just because someone produces. There is some middle ground there and some in this thread have done a good job of defending that.

[thedaymen]

 

So for me personally, Ramirez is not a fit for this team. When it really matters, he doesn't show up or care. Bury him on a top 5 offensive team where he can fly under the radar. The Cubs need someone capable of being a carry-the-load guy behind Lee and they need a big time producer, so it has to come from 3B, LF, or RF next year.

 

And what if Lee is never the player he was last year. There was a lot of talk this offseason about "what if Lee returns to career norms." With the injury and results we're seeing now, its not a stretch to think that Lee won't even be a .300/30 type of guy next year.

 

The Cubs are going to need someone to step up, and the collection of role players they have in the lineup besides Barrett isn't going to cut it.

[cubfan1955]

It's a no win situation for Aramis. Either he looks like a lazy bum that is loafing or he pulls something if he runs hard. The outcome is either benched for lack of hustle or on the DL injured. Either way you lose his bat. Not that it makes it ok. It's just the way it is.