Brenly Calls out ARam, Again!

[soapy]

The Cubs need someone capable of being a carry-the-load guy behind Lee and they need a big time producer, so it has to come from 3B, LF, or RF next year.

So bring in a big time producer in LF or RF and let Ramirez continue to "fly under the radar", as you put it. I don't disagree that he failed to "step up" when Lee went down, but I don't think that (along with the lack of hustle) is necessarily a reason to get rid of him. He's still a productive player and has a place on a good team.

[TheDude]

It's a no win situation for Aramis. Either he looks like a lazy bum that is loafing or he pulls something if he runs hard. The outcome is either benched for lack of hustle or on the DL injured. Either way you lose his bat. Not that it makes it ok. It's just the way it is.

 

If hustling to first base is going to cause a 28 year old player to pull something as a regular concern when 100% healthy, then the player has no business being an athlete. It's absurd to think a player his age can never hustle due to lack of proper stretching and preparation.

 

He's not Frank Thomas in the twilight of his career.

[RynoRules]

It's Hendry's fault Aramis is expected to carry a whole team.

It's Dusty's fault that Aramis is allowed to loaf around the bases.

It's a character issue that Aramis would even consider loafing around the bases as an acceptable practice.

 

It really pisses me off to see someone loafing out there. But, when management allows it, is it really the players fault?

 

The longer Dusty is here, the easier it is to see why players love playing for him.

 

Yes, its at least partially the player's faultb/c he is a professional making millions who should give his best effort every time out and should have pride in what he does.

 

EDIT: But Dusty is also a major part of this.

Edited July 25, 2006 by RynoRules

[Caryatid]

ARam 'spectating' again on the bases. Jones double down the leftfield line, ARam dogs it to third. Too busy looking at the ball and not picking up Quade at third base and hustling.

 

Brenly says "most Cubs would have scored easily".

 

But Bob, some Cub fans think it's OK to dog it. After all, we can't ask them to do too much. Yeah, right.

 

If only he hustled more-that's all that you need! Hit .220, get an OBP of .260, but try real hard...then we'll win the World Series!

 

Don't forget scrappy guys. We need more of those! A few gritty ones too!

 

Just like Aramis' lack of hustle shouldn't be considered one of the top few problems of this team, I don't think we should have these same sarcastic replies every time it's brought up.

I wasn't the #1 fan of Augie Ojeda. I don't want a team of Doug Dascenzo's. But I also don't think we or anyone in the organization should accept a lack of hustle or poor attitude at times just because someone produces. There is some middle ground there and some in this thread have done a good job of defending that.

 

Had the original post in the thread been less sarcastic, I believe the replies would have followed suit.

[cubfan1955]

It's a no win situation for Aramis. Either he looks like a lazy bum that is loafing or he pulls something if he runs hard. The outcome is either benched for lack of hustle or on the DL injured. Either way you lose his bat. Not that it makes it ok. It's just the way it is.

 

If hustling to first base is going to cause a 28 year old player to pull something as a regular concern when 100% healthy, then the player has no business being an athlete. It's absurd to think a player his age can never hustle due to lack of proper stretching and preparation.

 

He's not Frank Thomas in the twilight of his career.

Everyone is entitled to make a living as long as someone is willing to pay for his services. The way it is right now there are major league baseball teams waiting in line to hire a guy that can hit a baseball the way Aram can. And who says he doesn't do proper stretching and preparation?

[SouthSideRyan]

His productivity was below that line, but he seemed to still get a free pass, despite being the most uninspiring ballplayer on the team.

 

I was annoyed, but the "free pass" was because he had produced before, and I expected his numbers to improve by the time all was said and done.

 

 

 

So for me personally, Ramirez is not a fit for this team. When it really matters, he doesn't show up or care. Bury him on a top 5 offensive team where he can fly under the radar. The Cubs need someone capable of being a carry-the-load guy behind Lee and they need a big time producer, so it has to come from 3B, LF, or RF next year.

 

I once again feel the need to ask, what team were you watching in '03 and '04.

[Chocolate Milk]

His productivity was below that line, but he seemed to still get a free pass, despite being the most uninspiring ballplayer on the team.

 

I was annoyed, but the "free pass" was because he had produced before, and I expected his numbers to improve by the time all was said and done.

 

 

 

So for me personally, Ramirez is not a fit for this team. When it really matters, he doesn't show up or care. Bury him on a top 5 offensive team where he can fly under the radar. The Cubs need someone capable of being a carry-the-load guy behind Lee and they need a big time producer, so it has to come from 3B, LF, or RF next year.

 

I once again feel the need to ask, what team were you watching in '03 and '04.

 

Not to mention that the bolded is based on absolutely nothing. You simply can't make that evaluation with the information we have as fans.

[goonys evil twin]

His productivity was below that line, but he seemed to still get a free pass, despite being the most uninspiring ballplayer on the team.

 

I was annoyed, but the "free pass" was because he had produced before, and I expected his numbers to improve by the time all was said and done.

 

In an interesting coincidence, the same can be said of Juan Pierre. Both players will likely end up with stats under career norms (but not by leaps and bounds), but Pierre's lack of productivity in the first half will be lamented far more than Ramirez's because of the standards set by those career norms. It goes back to the acceptable production line.

 

The difference is Ramirez's expected norm is quite good, while Pierre's sucks, and the Cubs gave up lots of talent for Pierre.

[goonys evil twin]

His productivity was below that line, but he seemed to still get a free pass, despite being the most uninspiring ballplayer on the team.

 

I was annoyed, but the "free pass" was because he had produced before, and I expected his numbers to improve by the time all was said and done.

 

 

 

So for me personally, Ramirez is not a fit for this team. When it really matters, he doesn't show up or care. Bury him on a top 5 offensive team where he can fly under the radar. The Cubs need someone capable of being a carry-the-load guy behind Lee and they need a big time producer, so it has to come from 3B, LF, or RF next year.

 

I once again feel the need to ask, what team were you watching in '03 and '04.

 

Or for that matter the beginning of 2005, when the team still had a chance, in theory.

 

I wasn't a big fan of his from the start. But the guy has performed in a Cubs uniform, other than the beginning of this year, when everything went bad. You can't justify a "he doesn't show up when it matters" with Ramirez.

[Bruno7481]

It is a cliche but you can control two things 100% of the time, your attitude and desire.

 

Maybe it is a cliche (I've never heard it), but it's certainly not true. Guys act out of character quite frequently. Temper is a big part of attitude, and people vary in their ability to control that. Desire can come and go, as evidenced by the frequent listless days players and teams experience. Exhaustion can negatively affect both your attitude and desire. This is especially true in a sport like baseball, which is a marathon. That type of talk might work in football, or lower level baseball that has fewer games, where you prepare for a limited amount of contests. But in pro baseball, attitude and desire will fluctuate throught the long season, no matter how macho somebody wants to talk about always giving 110%.

 

I couldn't disagree more. An individual can always control their attitude and effort. Doesnt matter if you are professional baseball player, a teacher, auto mechanic, anything. Other outside forces are beyond your control, but you are the sole person responsible for the attitude/effort you will choose to have on a given day.

 

It is an example I try to use with my pitchers. You can be out there and make every pitch possible, be hitting all your sports but your defense can let you down. The rest is beyond your control after that. You do your job. In my playing career there were a thousands of times where I would have liked to rip into my teammates, but you can't do that. Zambrano has had similar episodes. It s in situations such as this where control of your attitude and effort is absolutely essential. Control your emotions and keep on as if everything is fine, even if sometime it isn't.

 

Like Ramirez, is some of his lack of hustle due to the sorry state of the franchise right now? Possibly. It shouldn't matter though. It doesn't excuse it. Nobody can make him do this, I personally don't think he will ever change. He is what he is.

[goonys evil twin]

I couldn't disagree more. An individual can always control their attitude and effort. Doesnt matter if you are professional baseball player, a teacher, auto mechanic, anything. Other outside forces are beyond your control, but you are the sole person responsible for the attitude/effort you will choose to have on a given day.

 

 

That's nice rahrah stuff for the kids, but it doesn't hold up to life in the real world, or for guys playing 162 games a year. Outside forces can affect attitude/effort quite frequently, no matter how tough you talk.

[Bruno7481]

I couldn't disagree more. An individual can always control their attitude and effort. Doesnt matter if you are professional baseball player, a teacher, auto mechanic, anything. Other outside forces are beyond your control, but you are the sole person responsible for the attitude/effort you will choose to have on a given day.

 

 

That's nice rahrah stuff for the kids, but it doesn't hold up to life in the real world, or for guys playing 162 games a year. Outside forces can affect attitude/effort quite frequently, no matter how tough you talk.

 

How tough I talk? Didn't realize that was "tough talk". Thanks for the laugh.

 

It does hold up in the real world as well. All I am saying is at the end of the day, the individual is responsible for the amount of effort they give. They are also responsible for the attitude. Its not just a baseball thing.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I couldn't disagree more. An individual can always control their attitude and effort. Doesnt matter if you are professional baseball player, a teacher, auto mechanic, anything. Other outside forces are beyond your control, but you are the sole person responsible for the attitude/effort you will choose to have on a given day.

 

 

That's nice rahrah stuff for the kids, but it doesn't hold up to life in the real world, or for guys playing 162 games a year. Outside forces can affect attitude/effort quite frequently, no matter how tough you talk.

 

How tough I talk? Didn't realize that was "tough talk". Thanks for the laugh.

 

It does hold up in the real world as well. All I am saying is at the end of the day, the individual is responsible for the amount of effort they give. They are also responsible for the attitude. Its not just a baseball thing.

 

It's also not a black and white thing -- there is a lot of gray.

[goonys evil twin]

I couldn't disagree more. An individual can always control their attitude and effort. Doesnt matter if you are professional baseball player, a teacher, auto mechanic, anything. Other outside forces are beyond your control, but you are the sole person responsible for the attitude/effort you will choose to have on a given day.

 

 

That's nice rahrah stuff for the kids, but it doesn't hold up to life in the real world, or for guys playing 162 games a year. Outside forces can affect attitude/effort quite frequently, no matter how tough you talk.

 

How tough I talk? Didn't realize that was "tough talk". Thanks for the laugh.

 

It does hold up in the real world as well. All I am saying is at the end of the day, the individual is responsible for the amount of effort they give. They are also responsible for the attitude. Its not just a baseball thing.

 

Is this the beginning of a Tony Robbins commercial?

 

No matter how much you want it to be, people aren't always 100% in control of their attitude/effort. I'm willing to bet that everybody can look back at a time when they wish they had a little different attitude about a subject or put in a better effort, certainly I am not the only one. And if you have a physically and mentally draining job that involves a load of travel and world class production on a daily basis, you will be affected by outside forces. There's a reason golfers slip up from time to time, it's not physical, it's mental. Same with ballplayers going through slumps. Guys aren't physically incapable of throwing to first, they let down mentally, lose focus. It takes attitude and effort to maintain focus throughout the course of a game or season. Every player inevitably loses focus at some time even if they really don't want to. But that's because they cannot control their attitude/effort 100% of the time.

[Bruno7481]

I couldn't disagree more. An individual can always control their attitude and effort. Doesnt matter if you are professional baseball player, a teacher, auto mechanic, anything. Other outside forces are beyond your control, but you are the sole person responsible for the attitude/effort you will choose to have on a given day.

 

 

That's nice rahrah stuff for the kids, but it doesn't hold up to life in the real world, or for guys playing 162 games a year. Outside forces can affect attitude/effort quite frequently, no matter how tough you talk.

 

How tough I talk? Didn't realize that was "tough talk". Thanks for the laugh.

 

It does hold up in the real world as well. All I am saying is at the end of the day, the individual is responsible for the amount of effort they give. They are also responsible for the attitude. Its not just a baseball thing.

 

Is this the beginning of a Tony Robbins commercial?

 

No matter how much you want it to be, people aren't always 100% in control of their attitude/effort. I'm willing to bet that everybody can look back at a time when they wish they had a little different attitude about a subject or put in a better effort, certainly I am not the only one. And if you have a physically and mentally draining job that involves a load of travel and world class production on a daily basis, you will be affected by outside forces. There's a reason golfers slip up from time to time, it's not physical, it's mental. Same with ballplayers going through slumps. Guys aren't physically incapable of throwing to first, they let down mentally, lose focus. It takes attitude and effort to maintain focus throughout the course of a game or season. Every player inevitably loses focus at some time even if they really don't want to. But that's because they cannot control their attitude/effort 100% of the time.

 

I appreciate the efforts to triviliaze my beliefs on the subject w/ the Robbins remark.

 

I have at home two binders, one from the St. Louis Cardinals and the other from the Philadelphia Phillies. Each player every Spring is presented with this. The same philosophy/quote that I am referring to (controlling attitude and effort) is prominently displayed on the fornt cover of both.

 

So, it isn't something that just "kids" get, or isn't applied to baseball at the major league level or in the real word.

 

They get the same message every Spring. It is obvioulsy up to the individual if they are going to try and live by it or not.

 

I'm not asking you to agree with me, I'm just making the point that this is discussed and drilled into players in yearly in at least two other organizations.

 

It's not just me.

[goonys evil twin]

I appreciate the efforts to triviliaze my beliefs on the subject w/ the Robbins remark.

 

I have at home two binders, one from the St. Louis Cardinals and the other from the Philadelphia Phillies. Each player every Spring is presented with this. The same philosophy/quote that I am referring to (controlling attitude and effort) is prominently displayed on the fornt cover of both.

 

So, it isn't something that just "kids" get, or isn't applied to baseball at the major league level or in the real word.

 

They get the same message every Spring. It is obvioulsy up to the individual if they are going to try and live by it or not.

 

I'm not asking you to agree with me, I'm just making the point that this is discussed and drilled into players in yearly in at least two other organizations.

 

It's not just me.

 

Hey, I understand the point in telling people this. Certainly you can work to control your attitude and effort more and more, and teams should get guys to do this. The problem is you cannot control it 100%. There's nothing wrong with trying to though, obviously players should. They just can't, and they won't.

[CubinNY]

This entire debate is silly, juvenile, and pointless.

 

Everybody has a bad day, or doesn't seem to give 100% effort at all times. The difference is that most people don't have television cameras on them at work.

 

Bruno, if you're posting at work you better stop and get a hold of your attitude and desire for your work. The person paying your check might not like it.

[Bruno7481]

This entire debate is silly, juvenile, and pointless.

 

Everybody has a bad day, or doesn't seem to give 100% effort at all times. The difference is that most people don't have television cameras on them at work.

 

Bruno, if you're posting at work you better stop and get a hold of your attitude and desire for your work. The person paying your check might not like it.

 

Or in Aramis' case, he seems to have a bad day 75% of the time. He looks bad doing it. Losing looks bad in itself, loosing and not putting for the appropriate effort looks even worse.

 

Thanks for classifying the discussion as juvenile, silly, and pointless. Didn't know you were the authority on that.

 

Agree or disagree, and stats the reasoning. Its silly, juvenile, and pointless to tell someone their argument is the same.

[USSoccer]

This entire debate is silly, juvenile, and pointless.

 

Everybody has a bad day, or doesn't seem to give 100% effort at all times. The difference is that most people don't have television cameras on them at work.

 

Bruno, if you're posting at work you better stop and get a hold of your attitude and desire for your work. The person paying your check might not like it.

 

Or in Aramis' case, he seems to have a bad day 75% of the time. He looks bad doing it. Losing looks bad in itself, loosing and not putting for the appropriate effort looks even worse.

 

Thanks for classifying the discussion as juvenile, silly, and pointless. Didn't know you were the authority on that.

 

Agree or disagree, and stats the reasoning. Its silly, juvenile, and pointless to tell someone their argument is the same.

 

You are saying he loafs it 75% of the time?

 

Wow. We have our 2006 scapegoat, folks.

[CubinNY]

This entire debate is silly, juvenile, and pointless.

 

Everybody has a bad day, or doesn't seem to give 100% effort at all times. The difference is that most people don't have television cameras on them at work.

 

Bruno, if you're posting at work you better stop and get a hold of your attitude and desire for your work. The person paying your check might not like it.

 

Or in Aramis' case, he seems to have a bad day 75% of the time. He looks bad doing it. Losing looks bad in itself, loosing and not putting for the appropriate effort looks even worse.

 

Thanks for classifying the discussion as juvenile, silly, and pointless. Didn't know you were the authority on that.

 

Agree or disagree, and stats the reasoning. Its silly, juvenile, and pointless to tell someone their argument is the same.

 

It's not an discussion, it's some silly rah, rah, go team knute Rockney crap.

 

Aramis has what, 8 HRs in the last week? How many errors has he made? Maybe he still not 100% in the groin/hamstring/calf region? Hell, I have no idea.

 

He's not fast, I'd rather have him play it conservative on the bases.

[Bruno7481]

This entire debate is silly, juvenile, and pointless.

 

Everybody has a bad day, or doesn't seem to give 100% effort at all times. The difference is that most people don't have television cameras on them at work.

 

Bruno, if you're posting at work you better stop and get a hold of your attitude and desire for your work. The person paying your check might not like it.

 

Or in Aramis' case, he seems to have a bad day 75% of the time. He looks bad doing it. Losing looks bad in itself, loosing and not putting for the appropriate effort looks even worse.

 

Thanks for classifying the discussion as juvenile, silly, and pointless. Didn't know you were the authority on that.

 

Agree or disagree, and stats the reasoning. Its silly, juvenile, and pointless to tell someone their argument is the same.

 

You are saying he loafs it 75% of the time?

 

Wow. We have our 2006 scapegoat, folks.

 

Yes, I'm blaming 2006 on A-ram, you figured me out.

 

No...

 

75% was exaggerated, my apologies. But he is the most common offender is he not? I'm not blaming the season on Ramirez at all. I'm just saying it looks bad.

 

Would 100% balls-out play make a different in the grand sheme of things? Maybe a few games, thats all. But that isn't the point. When the team is already as bad as it is, things like this, no mater who does it, makes it look even worse.

[Bruno7481]

This entire debate is silly, juvenile, and pointless.

 

Everybody has a bad day, or doesn't seem to give 100% effort at all times. The difference is that most people don't have television cameras on them at work.

 

Bruno, if you're posting at work you better stop and get a hold of your attitude and desire for your work. The person paying your check might not like it.

 

Or in Aramis' case, he seems to have a bad day 75% of the time. He looks bad doing it. Losing looks bad in itself, loosing and not putting for the appropriate effort looks even worse.

 

Thanks for classifying the discussion as juvenile, silly, and pointless. Didn't know you were the authority on that.

 

Agree or disagree, and stats the reasoning. Its silly, juvenile, and pointless to tell someone their argument is the same.

 

It's not an discussion, it's some silly rah, rah, go team knute Rockney crap.

 

Aramis has what, 8 HRs in the last week? How many errors has he made? Maybe he still not 100% in the groin/hamstring/calf region? Hell, I have no idea.

 

He's not fast, I'd rather have him play it conservative on the bases.

 

He's certainly been on fire, no doubt about that.

 

Maybe one reason he always has leg/hamstring/calf issues is a lack of conditioning or effort?

[beowulf28]

The problem doesn't lie with the player who lacks effort. The fault lies with the organization that enables that behavior.

 

I believe the problem is a mutual one; the Cubs shouldn't alllow him to do it or put up with it, but Aramis should have enough self-pride to hustle when he needs to.

 

Bingo!

[Bruno7481]

The problem doesn't lie with the player who lacks effort. The fault lies with the organization that enables that behavior.

 

I believe the problem is a mutual one; the Cubs shouldn't alllow him to do it or put up with it, but Aramis should have enough self-pride to hustle when he needs to.

 

Bingo!

 

Yep!

 

And you can't tell me Aramis isn't in control of the amount of hustle he puts forth.

[beowulf28]

Can you imagine if DLee, Barret, Jones, and Aram all decided they'd start loafing on the basepaths whenever the mood struck? What fan would even want to watch a team like that, let alone cheer for it?

DLee, Barret and Jones all hustle like crazy out there, and I barely want to watch this team. Raisin hit the nail on the head.

 

Actually, I agree whole-heartedly with Tim. The manager/management lets him get away with not hustling. As has already been said, Bobby Cox wouldn't let ARam get away with his lack of hustle. He'd call him out for it.